President Holloway to Yale?

[retired711]

Yep Brittany Cooper for starters

But i guarantee speech in 2020 against the blm sham would have people losing jobs

Do you have an example for a public employer? (The private sector can do as it likes; the First Amendment protects only against governmental action.) I doubt it, but I'm willing to listen.

I don't know anything about Brittney Cooper (and would like it to keep it that way), but I note that she is an associate professor and not a full professor. That means she has tenure, but is not at the rank where most professors are. Probably it will happen, but I do know of faculty who have spent their whole careers never getting beyond associate professor.

 

[Eagleton96]

The current administration doesn't believe the first amendment exists. Used to be the party of free speech. And they continue to defend their flimsy positions and lose in federal courts. Shameful. Creeping authoritarianism.

View embedded media

The classic example that the right to free speech has common sense limits is the case of yelling fire in a crowded theater. Because yelling fire in a crowded theater puts others at risk, the first amendment doesn't apply. Spreading medical misinformation during a pandemic when hospitals were overcrowded with sick people fits the bill for cases when the first amendment doesn't apply.

 

[Eagleton96]

Wow..no its not the same wow

I think it's pretty much the same. And I'm Jewish.

 

[bac2therac]

I think it's pretty much the same. And I'm Jewish.

Yeah ok pro Israel is same as pro Hamas..i believe you

I dont recall kill all Palestinian professors and students being a thing

i guess you are oblivious to the last 6 months on campuses

 

[bac2therac]

The classic example that the right to free speech has common sense limits is the case of yelling fire in a crowded theater. Because yelling fire in a crowded theater puts others at risk, the first amendment doesn't apply. Spreading medical misinformation during a pandemic when hospitals were overcrowded with sick people fits the bill for cases when the first amendment doesn't apply.

Hmm medical misinformation that is interesting..who defines that

 

[Eagleton96]

Yep Brittany Cooper for starters

But i guarantee speech in 2020 against the blm sham would have people losing jobs

Also, there is a good logic for the idea of tenure and you have to take the bad with the good. Remember, throughout history powerful people and institutions have suppressed and persecuted new ideas. Dating back to the Catholic Church's persecution of Copernicus' theory that the Earth revolves around the sun. If you want scientists to pursue the truth, without fear of persecution, tenure is important.

I tend to think there are too many tenured faculty and most of the research they produce doesn't amount to much. So it's a system in need of reform. But the idea is good.

 

[bac2therac]

Antisemitism at Rutgers University: An Open Letter from Rutgers Faculty and Staff – The Gleaner

gleaner.rutgers.edu

rutgers is/was also under congressional investigation for anti semitism

 

[Eagleton96]

Yeah ok pro Israel is same as pro Hamas..i believe you

I dont recall kill all Palestinian professors and students being a thing

i guess you are oblivious to the last 6 months on campuses

I didn't say pro Israel is same as pro-Hamas. I specifically mentioned the violent expansionist settlers in Israel. Happy to provide a link that talks about them. Got so see their ugly racism and violence up close and personal when I lived there. They happen to have a hold on the government at the moment and the policies of Israel, in aggregate, result in just as much Palestinian suffering than the terrorism of Hamas results in Israeli suffering. I'm not god so I can't decide who is slightly more right or less wrong. It's just a sad situation with a lot of bad actors on both sides.

 

[Knight Shift]

The classic example that the right to free speech has common sense limits is the case of yelling fire in a crowded theater. Because yelling fire in a crowded theater puts others at risk, the first amendment doesn't apply. Spreading medical misinformation during a pandemic when hospitals were overcrowded with sick people fits the bill for cases when the first amendment doesn't apply.

Except it was the government that was spreading medical misinformation, lies and suppressing truthful information pertaining to adverse events, lack of efficacy (vaccines prevented spread, etc) which Lord Fauci and his minions deemed misinformation. Quite a perverse defense of the First Amendment. Especially when the government is in bed with big pharma, and protecting commercial interests. Commercial speech enjoys much limited protection of free speech. I wrote a law review note on commercial free speech.

 

[retired711]

The classic example that the right to free speech has common sense limits is the case of yelling fire in a crowded theater. Because yelling fire in a crowded theater puts others at risk, the first amendment doesn't apply. Spreading medical misinformation during a pandemic when hospitals were overcrowded with sick people fits the bill for cases when the first amendment doesn't apply.

People cite the yelling fire example all the time. But more than fifty years ago the Supreme Court abandoned the decision in which the Court had said that. Instead, the test is whether the speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." The term "imminent" is the key. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

 

[Eagleton96]

Antisemitism at Rutgers University: An Open Letter from Rutgers Faculty and Staff – The Gleaner

gleaner.rutgers.edu

rutgers is/was also under congressional investigation for anti semitism

There were similar letters written by the other side. And the the fact of the congressional investigation is just indicative of Israel having a bigger lobby in congress. Means nothing.

 

[Knight Shift]

People cite the yelling fire example all the time. But more than fifty years ago the Supreme Court abandoned the decision in which the Court had said that. Instead, the test is whether the speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." The term "imminent" is the key. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

It is quite amazing to me (and many others) the lengths people will defend the actions of this administration on free speech issues. The great irony is the party used to vigorously defend free speech.

 

[bac2therac]

There were similar letters written by the other side. And the the fact of the congressional investigation is just indicative of Israel having a bigger lobby in congress. Means nothing.

are you pro hamas....does Hamas not want to wipe all Jew off the face of the earth..yes or no

if a similar attack occurred on us soil would you be sympathetic if the US struck back savagely and hard on the country who did it

i dont mean to be argumentatitve but you seen to being doing a both sides type argument here..something echoed today by the american president

 

[REDRICH65]

Is Holloway now in the portal? Jumps jobs for the highest NIL

 

[bac2therac]

I didn't say pro Israel is same as pro-Hamas. I specifically mentioned the violent expansionist settlers in Israel. Happy to provide a link that talks about them. Got so see their ugly racism and violence up close and personal when I lived there. They happen to have a hold on the government at the moment and the policies of Israel, in aggregate, result in just as much Palestinian suffering than the terrorism of Hamas results in Israeli suffering. I'm not god so I can't who is slight more right or less wrong. It's just a sad situation with a lot of bad actors on both sides.

where is that at rutgers and columbia and yale and nyu and harvard can you point me to those professor...i didnt see them on msnbc like the ru pro hamas professor Noura Erakat who has family ties to the PLO

 

[Eagleton96]

People cite the yelling fire example all the time. But more than fifty years ago the Supreme Court abandoned the decision in which the Court had said that. Instead, the test is whether the speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." The term "imminent" is the key. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

Interesting. Yelling fire isn't incitement to a lawless action as the people exiting the fire aren't being lawless in fleeing. It's more like some kind of reckless endangerment through fraudulent claims.

Regardless, I see no support here for the idea that the Biden admin is suppressing free speech @Knight Shift

 

[Eagleton96]

are you pro hamas....does Hamas not want to wipe all Jew off the face of the earth..yes or no

if a similar attack occurred on us soil would you be sympathetic if the US struck back savagely and hard on the country who did it

I'm not pro Hamas. I'm saying the bad people that are Hamas that make up a portion of the population are similar to the bad people on the other side. I'm for peace and a two state solution.

 

[bac2therac]

Interesting. Yelling fire isn't incitement to a lawless action as the people exiting the fire aren't being lawless in fleeing. It's more like some kind of reckless endangerment through fraudulent claims.

Regardless, I see no support here for the idea that the Biden admin is suppressing free speech @Knight Shift

twitter files say otherwise....missouri vs biden says otherwise....so our intelligence agencies are also not trying to do this....note that many of ex intel sit in prominent positions on social media.

 

[bac2therac]

I'm not pro Hamas. I'm saying the bad people in Hamas are similar to the bad people on the other side. I'm for peace and a two state solution.

wow..so you are saying there are good people in Hamas....there might be good people in Palestine but in Hamas?

 

[Knight Shift]

Interesting. Yelling fire isn't incitement to a lawless action as the people exiting the fire aren't being lawless in fleeing. It's more like some kind of reckless endangerment through fraudulent claims.

Regardless, I see no support here for the idea that the Biden admin is suppressing free speech @Knight Shift

Funny quote coming from Bruce, in the intro to "War" by Edwin Starr. He's mighty quiet while the War Pigs are fueling up and supporting the worldwide war machine.

If I find time, I will dig up the lawsuits where the current administration has lost or taken an untenable position on the government's suppression of free speech.

 

[vic_torre42]

MAGAs think the first amendment only applies to them.

What is a MAGA?

-vic

 

[bac2therac]

what do you think of the protests happening the past week with the harrassment of Jewish students at schools...i get free speech and all but I am 54 and have never seen such blatant anti semitism allowed and encouraged by our elected officials..like aoc did today....i know the current american president talk about white supremacy for months and had prime time speeches talking about things that really only happened one time in charlottesville yet stuff like that is happening every single day...i just find it odd the country went crazy a couple years ago but now its perfectly okay for these protests and no one in leadership is really leading OR DIDNT DO IT MONTHS AGO, which has allowed this to fester and become a normal part of life

 

[Eagleton96]

where is that at rutgers and columbia and yale and nyu and harvard can you point me to those professor...i didnt see them on msnbc like the ru pro hamas professor Noura Erakat who has family ties to the PLO

I don't have time to do the research project at the moment. But I know I have seen it.

Do you have a link to what Noura Erakat said in particular?

 

[Brisket and Bourbon]

The grass may not be greener in Connecticut. Plus it’s Connecticut 🤮 sure it’s ivy…I get it…feather in his academic cap, but the ivy’s suffer from much of the same nastiness that affects “regular ol” public’s…I’m sure it’s a big raise.

 

[Eagleton96]

Funny quote coming from Bruce, in the intro to "War" by Edwin Starr. He's mighty quiet while the War Pigs are fueling up and supporting the worldwide war machine.

If I find time, I will dig up the lawsuits where the current administration has lost or taken an untenable position on the government's suppression of free speech.

If you do I will read it. Broader point: since you are such a free speech defender, shouldn't that apply to all points of view?

 

[Eagleton96]

What is a MAGA?

-vic

Trumpers. Make America Great Again.

 

[bac2therac]

I don't have time to do the research project at the moment. But I know I have seen it.

Do you have a link to what Noura Erakat said in particular?

it would take a long time

we all know what she is about

 

[Brisket and Bourbon]

what do you think of the protests happening the past week with the harrassment of Jewish students at schools...i get free speech and all but I am 54 and have never seen such blatant anti semitism allowed and encouraged by our elected officials..like aoc did today....i know the current american president talk about white supremacy for months and had prime time speeches talking about things that really only happened one time in charlottesville yet stuff like that is happening every single day...i just find it odd the country went crazy a couple years ago but now its perfectly okay for these protests and no one in leadership is really leading OR DIDNT DO IT MONTHS AGO, which has allowed this to fester and become a normal part of life

You really find that odd? Completely unsurprising to me. If Trump wins (I highly doubt it because he won’t be allowed to) you can expect Floyd-level riots leveling billions in infrastructure like back in 2020…but mostly peaceful…naturally. 🙄

 

[Brisket and Bourbon]

Yep Brittany Cooper for starters

But i guarantee speech in 2020 against the blm sham would have people losing jobs

This harsh and pointed truth will upset some 😉

 

[bac2therac]

This harsh and pointed truth will upset some 😉

i know that a prominent donor at usc lost her usc football tix because she tweeted something not in step with blm narrative

 

[Eagleton96]

it would take a long time

we all know what she is about

Seems like she feels like Israel is the entity in the wrong and that Palestinians are justified in fighting back. Agree or not, that's a very valid point of view. I don't see anything about supporting Hamas though.

 

[Knight Shift]

From the NYT, my favorite news source 🤣 :

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/08/business/appeals-court-first-amendment-social-media.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/politics/biden-administration-social-media-lawsuit/index.html

In fairness, the case may be reversed by the Supreme Court, but that does not mean the behavior is right for free speech advocates:

Supreme Court seems favorable to Biden administration over efforts to combat social media posts

The case involves posts on Facebook, X and other media platforms.

apnews.com

This is a tough one, but another example:

 

[Eagleton96]

i know that a prominent donor at usc lost her usc football tix because she tweeted something not in step with blm narrative

That's different. If a tenured faculty member is saying abhorrent things, you don't invite them to the halftime show. You just can't fire them for it directly. For a donor there are no protections, nor should there be.

 

[Brisket and Bourbon]

i know that a prominent donor at usc lost her usc football tix because she tweeted something not in step with blm narrative

And I hope she along with others not into riot-instigation reduce their donations to $0.00

 

[Knight Shift]

If you do I will read it. Broader point: since you are such a free speech defender, shouldn't that apply to all points of view?

In terms of what?
If we are discussing the current issue around protests on college campuses-yes, peaceful protests should be protected. But once the protests turn to violence and threats of violence against a group, the violent protesters should be arrested.

But yes, I am pretty close to a free speech absolutist. Bad speech (non violent/threatening) can be countered and diffused by counter "good" speech.

 

[Eagleton96]

From the NYT, my favorite news source 🤣 :

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/08/business/appeals-court-first-amendment-social-media.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/politics/biden-administration-social-media-lawsuit/index.html

In fairness, the case may be reversed by the Supreme Court, but that does not mean the behavior is right for free speech advocates:

Supreme Court seems favorable to Biden administration over efforts to combat social media posts

The case involves posts on Facebook, X and other media platforms.

apnews.com

This is a tough one, but another example:

View embedded media

I don't hase a NYT subscription, but read the CNN one. The Biden admin pressured social media companies to suppress what they viewed as misinformation. That's clearly a gray area for a lot of reasons. They courts will eventually rule on it.

Meanwhile, doesn't change my original point.

 

[Knight Shift]

I don't hase a NYT subscription, but read the CNN one. The Biden admin pressured social media companies to suppress what they viewed as misinformation. That's clearly a gray area for a lot of reasons. They courts will eventually rule on it.

Meanwhile, doesn't change my original point.

The fire in a crowded theater point? Didn't @retired711 at least partially debunk that?
As far as what happened during the pandemic, I don't think we are going to agree. I have a particular issue with arrogant Fauci and his pal Collins, who issued a take-down memo/e-mail against many very respected scientists at prestigious institutions, not just some everyday wingnuts. Fauci and other government officials had vested commercial interests in pharma companies (something that is a huge problem), and in retrospect, many well-informed scientists and physicians have shown my parochial view, they were protecting commercial interests over the legitimate interests of experts who had valid questions about government policies. Hopefully, the nation learned a lesson from pandemic and the government's suppression of speech.

 

[T2Kplus20]

I didn't say pro Israel is same as pro-Hamas. I specifically mentioned the violent expansionist settlers in Israel. Happy to provide a link that talks about them. Got so see their ugly racism and violence up close and personal when I lived there. They happen to have a hold on the government at the moment and the policies of Israel, in aggregate, result in just as much Palestinian suffering than the terrorism of Hamas results in Israeli suffering. I'm not god so I can't who is slight more right or less wrong. It's just a sad situation with a lot of bad actors on both sides.

Rutgers has a lot of antisemitism to clean up. One of the worst universities for Jewish students based on the ADL audit.

Campus Antisemitism Report Card

Explore ADL’s Campus Antisemitism Report Card, a new tool evaluating antisemitism on college campuses and tracking whether and how administrations are responding.

www.adl.org

--- ADL College Scorecard

 

[bac2therac]

The fire in a crowded theater point? Didn't @retired711 at least partially debunk that?
As far as what happened during the pandemic, I don't think we are going to agree. I have a particular issue with arrogant Fauci and his pal Collins, who issued a take-down memo/e-mail against many very respected scientists at prestigious institutions, not just some everyday wingnuts. Fauci and other government officials had vested commercial interests in pharma companies (something that is a huge problem), and in my parochial view, they were protecting commercial interests over the legitimate interests of experts who had valid questions about government policies. Hopefully, the nation learned a lesson from pandemic and the government's suppression of speech.

outstanding

 

[HPNJRUfan]

In the words of Pauly D: "You'se are all f**kin' nuts!"