Question for the experts..........Offensive Line

[RUGOLD]

I am no football X's and O's experts but in watching Rutgers offensive struggles it appears to me that the offensive line is the problem. Time after time, teams get deep penetration on our OL and plays almost have no time to develop. I would be interested to see what those in the know think.

 

[RU from Jersey]

Instead of having a tug of war with truck tires maybe they should have spent more time on blocking techniques.

 

[goru1869]

There are no experts here only opinions!

 

[Extra Point]

Run plays that don't require much blocking.

 

[MorrisAsh]

Power Spread offense requires very athletic guards, easily the third most important position in that offense.

 

[retired711]

Ash called out the OL in his press conference last night. He said it's hard to have an offense when you can't open holes or pass protect. I'm willing to believe him. The only thing is that I tend to think that his offense requires an exceptionally good offensive line, not just an average one.

 

[JerseyShoreKnight]

The spread is based on winning 1 on 1's, receivers in the passing game, lineman in the running game. The base plays in the power spread are the inside zone and outside zone read option plays. The read option is used to the offense is able to run the ball with 1 more guy in the tackle box than you can block. The QB reads that guy, usually a DE or OLB. If he follows the RB, the QB pulls it and runs where his gap was. If he stays home to prevent the QB from running, the QB gives it to the RB. Say we have 5 lineman and a TE. The defense would counter with 7 in the box. 1 guy takes the QB. So now it's 6 on 6, plus the RB. That leaves 1 guy for each lineman and the TE to block. Each guy has a 1 on 1 battle, what coaches call "a hat on a hat." If they can't win their battle, the play won't work. See how Ohio Stste dismantled Oregon in the CFB semifinals two years ago. Their front seven won the line of scrimmage and prevented Oregon's offense from finding a rhythm. That is how Ohio State won the game.

 

[rutgers4life11]

This is what concerns me tho... these power spread offenses have been successful at schools where linemen recruits grow on trees. They don't here in NJ. Big reason Clark is such a huge recruit.

What happens if this type of offense expressly requires players we can't even obtain to be successful? To me, this is the danger of inexperienced coaches who have spent almost their entire careers with OSU and UH, who have an embarassment of riches with oline talent.

 

[RURM85]

Wait a minute. For years we have had posters on this board state that it's a huge disadvantage to play in a pro-style offense if the OL is not superior talent (Think Alabama talent). The explanation was in pro-style, the OL has to hold on to their block longer compared to a spread system. Now we're concerned about obtaining the OL skills necessary to play a power spread?

Yes, it appears the blocking in general has resulting in limited running lanes and pass protection issues this year, however, I'd like to believe (or maybe pretend) that we've had blockers that are accustomed to playing a pro-style offense with a fullback and TE that can stay in and help for max. protection, as opposed to a new system that was implemented for its first season.

And Ash spent all of 2 seasons at OSU. He spent more seasons at recruiting challenged Wisconsin.

 

[tico brown]

It's probably a moot point as far as comparing this link to the Rutgers OLine/Scheme. But here's an article on how Baylor made some adjustments after they ran out of QBs for their last two games of 2015. They basically ran a spread single wing and did pretty good vs Texas and in beating UNC in their bowl game.

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/p...th-carolina-Art-Briles-Gene-Chizik-dread-wing

 

[Abro1975]

Practically The same offensive line opened enough holes for our Running backs to score over 35 TDs the past 2 seasons. This season- 1 total rush TD by a RB !

Chew on that tidbit

 

[MozRU]

This is what concerns me tho... these power spread offenses have been successful at schools where linemen recruits grow on trees. They don't here in NJ. Big reason Clark is such a huge recruit.

What happens if this type of offense expressly requires players we can't even obtain to be successful? To me, this is the danger of inexperienced coaches who have spent almost their entire careers with OSU and UH, who have an embarassment of riches with oline talent.

This is very telling.

I always said, Saban and Meyer are the best "CEOs" ever in college football. I'd like to see them coach at Kansas State or Rutgers with Three star and a few four star kids and win games.

Ash has been at programs with STUD OLinemen and POWERHOUSE DLinemen.

Our OC came from a program with WR who could run like deer.

That haven't show they can coach here at RU: Only they can call an offense and defense with players that are so under matched. Nothing more. Stay tuned.

 

[newwavedave1]

Practically The same offensive line opened enough holes for our Running backs to score over 35 TDs the past 2 seasons. This season- 1 total rush TD by a RB !

Chew on that tidbit

That is a telling and amazing fact. Players not fitting the "system" must be the problem. Definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".

 

[Knight Shift]

That is a telling and amazing fact. Players not fitting the "system" must be the problem. Definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".

And running an up tempo offense when the result is consistently three and out just kills your defense. At some point Chris Ash and Drew Mehringer need to realize that they may need to pump the brakes on the offense they want to run to prevent embarrassing scores and putrid offensive statistics until they have the types of athletes they have to run their offense.

We need @gef21 to chime in here.

 

[JerseyShoreKnight]

Wait a minute. For years we have had posters on this board state that it's a huge disadvantage to play in a pro-style offense if the OL is not superior talent (Think Alabama talent). The explanation was in pro-style, the OL has to hold on to their block longer compared to a spread system. Now we're concerned about obtaining the OL skills necessary to play a power spread?

Yes, it appears the blocking in general has resulting in limited running lanes and pass protection issues this year, however, I'd like to believe (or maybe pretend) that we've had blockers that are accustomed to playing a pro-style offense with a fullback and TE that can stay in and help for max. protection, as opposed to a new system that was implemented for its first season.

And Ash spent all of 2 seasons at OSU. He spent more seasons at recruiting challenged Wisconsin.

The spread is a more explosive, difficult to defend offense. While we are better equipped for pro style right now, 7 wins would probably be our ceiling. This scheme gives us a better chance to compete in the future and hopefully one day get to 9 wins.

A lot of the pro plays are towards one side of the field. The defense doesn't have to worry about the other half. The spread makes the defense cover every single player, including the QB.

Much better scheme IMO. Just need to get the recruits that fit, primarily quick receivers and big, athletic lineman.

 

[gef21]

So I have a few thoughts on this.

1. In regards to the OL our guards are not good. They get beat on pass setting, they get beat on run blocking, and they really get beat on pulling all the time. Our OTs have improved and played decently (still having some struggles) and our C has played fairly well.

2. The 2nd opinion is something I have been conflicted on all year. As a HS coach I have always said I will always run systems, to fit the players I have. But as a college coach we develop a system and we build into that system. I get them staying with the system to begin to teach the younger guys and build a program.

3. My issue is not the system we are running but what the goals of the offense are. I would kill to sit in on an offensive meeting (and I am going to get myself in the door extensively this off season to ask a lot of questions). I do not understand what they really want to do. Were our WRs really that bad that we could not attack the middle of the field? Every offense has a point they want to make and I do not understand what ours is. I have the feeling the point they wanted was we are going to run the ball but then teams keyed off on the fact our QB could not run and they started only playing the the HB.

My FB season came to an end yesterday as the team I was advising for lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Great game. Now I try and plan where I head off to for next year.

 

[RU#1fan]

That is a telling and amazing fact. Players not fitting the "system" must be the problem. Definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".

Our players are woefully too slow to run a Spread Offense.

 

[Knight Shift]

So I have a few thoughts on this.

1. In regards to the OL our guards are not good. They get beat on pass setting, they get beat on run blocking, and they really get beat on pulling all the time. Our OTs have improved and played decently (still having some struggles) and our C has played fairly well.

2. The 2nd opinion is something I have been conflicted on all year. As a HS coach I have always said I will always run systems, to fit the players I have. But as a college coach we develop a system and we build into that system. I get them staying with the system to begin to teach the younger guys and build a program.

3. My issue is not the system we are running but what the goals of the offense are. I would kill to sit in on an offensive meeting (and I am going to get myself in the door extensively this off season to ask a lot of questions). I do not understand what they really want to do. Were our WRs really that bad that we could not attack the middle of the field? Every offense has a point they want to make and I do not understand what ours is. I have the feeling the point they wanted was we are going to run the ball but then teams keyed off on the fact our QB could not run and they started only playing the the HB.

My FB season came to an end yesterday as the team I was advising for lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Great game. Now I try and plan where I head off to for next year.

Can you explain why the OL is worse than last year? Lumpkin was the only loss, and he was a tackle, which you said was not the big problem. Is it the system and the blocking is different?

 

[gef21]

Can you explain why the OL is worse than last year? Lumpkin was the only loss, and he was a tackle, which you said was not the big problem. Is it the system and the blocking is different?

The scheme is different. We ran a lot of zone blocking schemes which allowed for double teams. We also kept more guys in to block (TE/FB) which helped pick up missed assignments. The biggest issue I saw our guards having was their first step when we ran a lot of zone read stuff. Their step was so slow that they were getting beat to the gap and or having their face crossed. This is why we had so much shit in the face of our QBs/HBs.

 

[gef21]

Our players are woefully too slow to run a Spread Offense.

I think it all depends on what type of spread we want to run and what our goals are.

 

[Knight Shift]

The scheme is different. We ran a lot of zone blocking schemes which allowed for double teams. We also kept more guys in to block (TE/FB) which helped pick up missed assignments. The biggest issue I saw our guards having was their first step when we ran a lot of zone read stuff. Their step was so slow that they were getting beat to the gap and or having their face crossed. This is why we had so much shit in the face of our QBs/HBs.

Thank you. I appreciate your clear explanations, coach. Too much screaming and yelling at each other here today. You are a voice of reason in a seas of chaos.

 

[gef21]

Thank you. I appreciate your clear explanations, coach. Too much screaming and yelling at each other here today. You are a voice of reason in a seas of chaos.

I actually avoided the board today. Did not feel like getting into a fight. I enjoyed watching some basketball and did some film work.

 

[nukem]

To me when you are running the spread, you want to stretch the field horizontally and vertically. We have done a poor job of doing this. I believe our best weapons are Patton, Harris, Martin, Hicks, and Goodwin. They are legitimate proven Div 1 players. Maybe they're not game breakers, but we know they can compete at this level.

Yesterday when we put Oden in, everyone in the stadium knew we weren't throwing the ball. Why can't he throw the ball? PSU was walking the safety down in the box as clear as day. So we have 1 on 1 press coverage from the LOS on Patton. Are you telling me Oden can't take a 3 step drop and put some air under the ball and have Patton run a go route?

Or how about using 2 of the backs in the game at the same time and go outside and run option with Oden. This would eliminate some of the problems of running the ball inside with our guards getting beat and put pressure on the defense to defend in space out wide forcing them to play assignment football. We ran option 1 time yesterday which we've barely used all year. The lack of imagination with this offense has been mind boggling to say the least.

And don't even get me going with the pass game. Has anyone seen a more simplistic passing game out of a spread attack at the Div 1 level? We refuse to throw the ball down the field past 10 yards and forget utilizing the middle of the field. And we do have enough talent to do some things with the pass game.

 

[gef21]

To me when you are running the spread, you want to stretch the field horizontally and vertically. We have done a poor job of doing this. I believe our best weapons are Patton, Harris, Martin, Hicks, and Goodwin. They are legitimate proven Div 1 players. Maybe they're not game breakers, but we know they can compete at this level.

Yesterday when we put Oden in, everyone in the stadium knew we weren't throwing the ball. Why can't he throw the ball? PSU was walking the safety down in the box as clear as day. So we have 1 on 1 press coverage from the LOS on Patton. Are you telling me Oden can't take a 3 step drop and put some air under the ball and have Patton run a go route?

Or how about using 2 of the backs in the game at the same time and go outside and run option with Oden. This would eliminate some of the problems of running the ball inside with our guards getting beat and put pressure on the defense to defend in space out wide forcing them to play assignment football. We ran option 1 time yesterday which we've barely used all year. The lack of imagination with this offense has been mind boggling to say the least.

And don't even get me going with the pass game. Has anyone seen a more simplistic passing game out of a spread attack at the Div 1 level? We refuse to throw the ball down the field past 10 yards and forget utilizing the middle of the field. And we do have enough talent to do some things with the pass game.

I completely agree with you on the passing game. The passing offense I helped design (for high school teams and what we transitioned to using at the D1AA level I was a part of) has over 25 combination routes for 2 WRs not even including our 3 wr and back options. My time as a run game coordinator and assistant OC had me mind boggled at what Rutgers true objectives were this year. Our offense had zero identity. It sometimes felt like a 9 year old playing Madden.

 

[MozRU]

So I have a few thoughts on this.

1. In regards to the OL our guards are not good. They get beat on pass setting, they get beat on run blocking, and they really get beat on pulling all the time. Our OTs have improved and played decently (still having some struggles) and our C has played fairly well.

2. The 2nd opinion is something I have been conflicted on all year. As a HS coach I have always said I will always run systems, to fit the players I have. But as a college coach we develop a system and we build into that system. I get them staying with the system to begin to teach the younger guys and build a program.

3. My issue is not the system we are running but what the goals of the offense are. I would kill to sit in on an offensive meeting (and I am going to get myself in the door extensively this off season to ask a lot of questions). I do not understand what they really want to do. Were our WRs really that bad that we could not attack the middle of the field? Every offense has a point they want to make and I do not understand what ours is. I have the feeling the point they wanted was we are going to run the ball but then teams keyed off on the fact our QB could not run and they started only playing the the HB.

My FB season came to an end yesterday as the team I was advising for lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Great game. Now I try and plan where I head off to for next year.

Can somone in the media PLEASE ask Ash and put him on the spot, "exactly why haven't you attempted one pass in the middle of the field the entire season? Or at least ONE deep ball once a game?"

 

[gef21]

Can somone in the media PLEASE ask Ash and put him on the spot, "exactly why haven't you attempted one pass in the middle of the field the entire season? Or at least ONE deep ball once a game?"

I would assume most of the media really does not know a ton of xs and os to ask that question. I would assume most fans wouldnt even notice that. I would love to have sat down with their offensive staff for a game plan meeting and see what their true goals are.

 

[nukem]

I completely agree with you on the passing game. The passing offense I helped design (for high school teams and what we transitioned to using at the D1AA level I was a part of) has over 25 combination routes for 2 WRs not even including our 3 wr and back options. My time as a run game coordinator and assistant OC had me mind boggled at what Rutgers true objectives were this year. Our offense had zero identity. It sometimes felt like a 9 year old playing Madden.

See, this is what has me concerned with this staff. I knew this would be a tough year with the talent deficiency that we have. But you want to see certain things. Certain adjustments to the talent that we have within the system that we run. I haven't seen those adjustments. The OC is 28 years old. How much experience does he have to draw from to be able to change things on the fly during the season so that we can eek out wins? The guy will probably be a great coach 10 years from now when he's been through all of this crap and has learned from it. But that's not helping us now. Experience counts in this game. The energy that youth brings is great but the strength of experience is greater and wins games at this level.

 

[gef21]

See, this is what has me concerned with this staff. I knew this would be a tough year with the talent deficiency that we have. But you want to see certain things. Certain adjustments to the talent that we have within the system that we run. I haven't seen those adjustments. The OC is 28 years old. How much experience does he have to draw from to be able to change things on the fly during the season so that we can eek out wins? The guy will probably be a great coach 10 years from now when he's been through all of this crap and has learned from it. But that's not helping us now. Experience counts in this game. The energy that youth brings is great but the strength of experience is greater and wins games at this level.

My concern with him is that he came from a great system, with a great playbook, and successful ideas with no experience installing it and running it. And to me its not so much as planning on the fly but being prepared for what to do next.

My favorite conversations to have, on the staffs I have worked on, are the what if. Lets say our game plan was to run a lot of 2x1 single back sets running stretch, bubble, and combo routes. Once our game plan is done we will say okay if we are having success what will THEIR adjustment be? What are we going to do when they do x? What do we have prepared to counter them. OR we say okay they came out in this and are stopping our game plan what is our escape strategy? It scares me that he does not seem to have those steps in mine.

To me I would say okay our guards struggle with X what can I do to put them in a position to be successful.

My #1 rule of coaching is never make a kid do something he can not do (at the high school and college level) and on offense this year at Rutgers I saw a lot of kids being put in spots for things they can not do.

 

[MozRU]

I would assume most of the media really does not know a ton of xs and os to ask that question. I would assume most fans wouldnt even notice that. I would love to have sat down with their offensive staff for a game plan meeting and see what their true goals are.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see us in the 3rd Qrt down only by 16pts this: 1st down - zone read up the middle (The QB never pulls it!), stuffed. 2nd down - lateral pass for a 3yrd loss. 3rd down - Draw for no gain.

We don't pass the ball up field passed 5yrds in out patterns. WE'VE never thrown the ball over the middle. We never throw the ball long.


We must suck that bad our coaches have no options but to run a set of down constantly, over and over again, what I outlined above.

 

[gef21]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see us in the 3rd Qrt down only by 16pts this: 1st down - zone read up the middle (The QB never pulls it!), stuffed. 2nd down - lateral pass for a 3rd loss. 3rd down - Draw for no gain.

We don't pass the ball up field passed 5yrds in out patterns. WE'VE never thrown the ball over the middle. We never throw the ball long.


We must suck that bad our coaches have no options but to run a set of down constantly, over and over again, what I outlined above

I can literally think of two passes across the middle this year. Gios 1st TD pass and 1 or MAYBE 2 dig routes to Harris.

 

[76Scarlet]

I am no football X's and O's experts but in watching Rutgers offensive struggles it appears to me that the offensive line is the problem. Time after time, teams get deep penetration on our OL and plays almost have no time to develop. I would be interested to see what those in the know think.

You are exactly right. I would also add our defensive play. So many here seem to think it's the QB. Somehow if we had a good QB all problems would be solved. No.........Ashe was right to call out the OL.

 

[Knight Shift]

I would assume most of the media really does not know a ton of xs and os to ask that question. I would assume most fans wouldnt even notice that. I would love to have sat down with their offensive staff for a game plan meeting and see what their true goals are.

A major goal appears to be avoiding turnovers. Several people where we sat last night were asking if RU was going to throw the ball downfield or across the middle, and none of us are X's and O's gurus. Maybe it is because they assume the QB will not have the time to get the pass off. But Gio made a little more time.

 

[nukem]

My concern with him is that he came from a great system, with a great playbook, and successful ideas with no experience installing it and running it. And to me its not so much as planning on the fly but being prepared for what to do next.

My favorite conversations to have, on the staffs I have worked on, are the what if. Lets say our game plan was to run a lot of 2x1 single back sets running stretch, bubble, and combo routes. Once our game plan is done we will say okay if we are having success what will THEIR adjustment be? What are we going to do when they do x? What do we have prepared to counter them. OR we say okay they came out in this and are stopping our game plan what is our escape strategy? It scares me that he does not seem to have those steps in mine.

To me I would say okay our guards struggle with X what can I do to put them in a position to be successful.

My #1 rule of coaching is never make a kid do something he can not do (at the high school and college level) and on offense this year at Rutgers I saw a lot of kids being put in spots for things they can not do.

You and I are on the same page. You said it better than me. My experience has been when you have the conversations like you had with your staff as to adjustments, a guy like Friedgen, who has seen everything, has the answers almost without thinking about it. Does our OC at this stage in his career have the answers to these tough problems we're having now to be able to adjust and refine the offense?

 

[rucoe89]

This is very telling.

I always said, Saban and Meyer are the best "CEOs" ever in college football. I'd like to see them coach at Kansas State or Rutgers with Three star and a few four star kids and win games.

Ash has been at programs with STUD OLinemen and POWERHOUSE DLinemen.

Our OC came from a program with WR who could run like deer.

That haven't show they can coach here at RU: Only they can call an offense and defense with players that are so under matched. Nothing more. Stay tuned.

This is the issue. They are not coaching to the capability of the talent level available to them. Not sure if that is good or bad (article on Duke coach K says to just run your scheme). But, hard to defend when your team is being consistently handed their asses to them.

 

[gef21]

You and I are on the same page. You said it better than me. My experience has been when you have the conversations like you had with your staff as to adjustments, a guy like Friedgen, who has seen everything, has the answers almost without thinking about it. Does our OC at this stage in his career have the answers to these tough problems we're having now to be able to adjust and refine the offense?

I do not think their is a lack of coaching experience but more a lack of game coaching experience. It all looks great on paper until the defense punches you in the mouth and you have 15 seconds to call the next play and then 15 minutes for a back up plan at the half.

Those conversations is some of the most I have ever learned as a football coach. The "what if" questions brought up some great adjustments and ideas which helped down the line and lead to a lot of success.

 

[Knight Shift]

You and I are on the same page. You said it better than me. My experience has been when you have the conversations like you had with your staff as to adjustments, a guy like Friedgen, who has seen everything, has the answers almost without thinking about it. Does our OC at this stage in his career have the answers to these tough problems we're having now to be able to adjust and refine the offense?

Friedgen was on the payroll until February of this year for only $50,000 per year. Wonder if Ash ever reached out to him. And I agree with what you said. There is nothing wrong and no shame (unless you are stubborn or too full of pride) in asking for someone with more experience to evaluate and assist on how to improve performance. The question is will Ash do this?
When you look at the level of experience of our OC, Running Backs Coach, and WR coach, we are extremely light on years of experience.

 

[gef21]

Friedgen was on the payroll until February of this year for only $50,000 per year. Wonder if Ash ever reached out to him. And I agree with what you said. There is nothing wrong and no shame (unless you are stubborn or too full of pride) in asking for someone with more experience to evaluate and assist on how to improve performance. The question is will Ash do this?
When you look at the level of experience of our OC, Running Backs Coach, and WR coach, we are extremely light on years of experience.

I left my last staff I was on because I argued with the HC about why we did something and that we should change it. His response was "This is how I have always done it". I hope our offensive staff is not in that boat. I hope they are not stuck on this is the exact way I want to run this exact system and its not working because the kids are not performing.

 

[RobertG]

My favorite conversations to have, on the staffs I have worked on, are the what if. Lets say our game plan was to run a lot of 2x1 single back sets running stretch, bubble, and combo routes. Once our game plan is done we will say okay if we are having success what will THEIR adjustment be? What are we going to do when they do x? What do we have prepared to counter them. OR we say okay they came out in this and are stopping our game plan what is our escape strategy? It scares me that he does not seem to have those steps in mine.

The tactical result of an engagement forms the base for new strategic decisions because victory or defeat in a battle changes the situation to such a degree that no human acumen is able to see beyond the first battle. In this sense one should understand Napoleon's saying: "I have never had a plan of operations."
Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force.

 

[gef21]

My favorite conversations to have, on the staffs I have worked on, are the what if. Lets say our game plan was to run a lot of 2x1 single back sets running stretch, bubble, and combo routes. Once our game plan is done we will say okay if we are having success what will THEIR adjustment be? What are we going to do when they do x? What do we have prepared to counter them. OR we say okay they came out in this and are stopping our game plan what is our escape strategy? It scares me that he does not seem to have those steps in mine.

The tactical result of an engagement forms the base for new strategic decisions because victory or defeat in a battle changes the situation to such a degree that no human acumen is able to see beyond the first battle. In this sense one should understand Napoleon's saying: "I have never had a plan of operations."
Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force.

That is a quote I am going to put on the front page of the packet my assistant coaches get. Love it.

 

[JerseyShoreKnight]

I am no football X's and O's experts but in watching Rutgers offensive struggles it appears to me that the offensive line is the problem. Time after time, teams get deep penetration on our OL and plays almost have no time to develop. I would be interested to see what those in the know think.

Exactly. Downfield plays need time to develop. The OL isn't Gio giving any time. That's why we're seeing so many quick outs and bubble screens. Drew KNOWS Gio won't have time to throw so he gets the ball out of his hands quickly. The defense counters with man press coverage, leading to a minimal gain at best.