Do you think they installed the entire offense this season or are going in baby steps because the offense is so different? I'm curious if the coaches had the foresight to see that not only were they at a disadvantage with the talent level of the players, but they also knew the new playbook was too much to install in one offseason, especially with the older players stuck in their ways of playing in a pro style scheme. It almost seemed like they had to almost rewire the players thinking so they'd to see the game the way the coaches do before installing anything.
Question for the experts..........Offensive Line
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Do you think they installed the entire offense this season or are going in baby steps because the offense is so different? I'm curious if the coaches had the foresight to see that not only were they at a disadvantage with the talent level of the players, but they also knew the new playbook was too much to install in one offseason, especially with the older players stuck in their ways of playing in a pro style scheme. It almost seemed like they had to almost rewire the players thinking so they'd to see the game the way the coaches do before installing anything.
My neighbor went to the penn state game, sports fan, understands the game. Said ru's d actually played pretty good, until they tanked, and the difference in talent was glaring, in particular, our O line. Said penn state's D more than had their way with us, ru's guys were on their heels the whole game
There is zero way we have installed the entire offense or at least cleared the entire offense to be used in games. I would assume they have the majority of the terminology, blocking, pass routes etc but have not installed all of the combo routes, formations, different run plays, etc. At least I hope.
I agree with that. I think our defense played fairly well this year but just got burned out. That is the reason I am hopeful with Ash. Our defense is going to get to a good level we just need the offense to help them out.
That quote is more famously paraphrased: "No battle plan survives action with the enemy."
Saban won at Toledo first and Meyer won at Bowling Green and Utah first.
If Ash inherited Marylands talent and their very weak OOC people would feeel differently. This is also historically, and this aguable, the best the big ten conference has been in a long time (beginning 3 years ago or so).
Of course Ash could do better in games. Of course Mehringer has made mistakes both in play calling, design, and gameplaning. It's to be expected and quite frankly those corrections don't mean much in terms of their effect on the state of the program.
Growth is the goal and it can't happen overnight to a program that was/is the shape ours was left in.
There were people on these very boards who said that RU needed to switch to a spread offense to take the pressure off the OL. The fact is, any offensive system, whether it's pro style or spread, requires a high level of OL play. No offensive system that has to compensate for the OL not being able to block people will ever work. It's a misconception that spread offenses require less blocking than more conventional offenses. They require a different set of blocking techniques.
Effective power spread offenses like the ones Urban Meyer has used at Florida and Ohio State have 2 fundamental components: inside power and outside speed. They also rely on the QB being a willing and effective runner. Trying to run inside zone running plays in this offense without a QB who's a running threat or an OL that gets overpowered at the line of scrimmage is a recipe for negative plays. It renders the zone read ineffective and makes the offense utterly predictable. Combine all of this with QBs who are inaccurate passers, and you have a recipe for shutouts.
Effective power spread offenses like the ones Urban Meyer has used at Florida and Ohio State have 2 fundamental components: inside power and outside speed. They also rely on the QB being a willing and effective runner. Trying to run inside zone running plays in this offense without a QB who's a running threat or an OL that gets overpowered at the line of scrimmage is a recipe for negative plays. It renders the zone read ineffective and makes the offense utterly predictable. Combine all of this with QBs who are inaccurate passers, and you have a recipe for shutouts.
Saban and Meyer have won everywhere they've been, and they haven't always had 5 star talent. Their success is based as much on player development and coaching as recruiting.
Great thread. Thoughtful intelligent discussion that's free of the usual rage and despair.
One positive is that Tariq and Kamaal have gotten valuable experience this year so at least at the two tackle positions there's going to be a base to build on next year.
One positive is that Tariq and Kamaal have gotten valuable experience this year so at least at the two tackle positions there's going to be a base to build on next year.
I actually liked us in the pro set. It allowed us to get duoble teams for our OL which covered up the fact that our guards were slow as dirt. I was VERY scared about us switching to a spread offense and my fears came true this year. We did not move the ball well which killed our defense.
Good points. As most of us know expert or not, your offensive line is the biggest factor in determining the productivity of the offense. When you have a good O-line pretty much any offensive scheme will work because they allow your skill players time to assert their skills. When you have a bad O-line pretty much any offensive scheme will not work...I am not sold on the O-line coaching so far as he is working with reasonable talent/experience. Although Tariq Cole seems to be developing very well, Miller, Muller, Nelson have seemed to regress and Seymour is still a WIP.
That said, the personnel decisions and less so the playcalling have really exacerbated the O-line issues. Your offense should never be so one dimensional and limited especially when you have limitations at the QB position. I still think they should have employed a hybrid (2 back gun) offense this season to transition into the full spread. This allows you to run the I formation stuff (power, counter, blast, quick trap, play action) but do it in the shotgun with footwork/ball handling that approximates the spread footwork/ball handling. This would have also maximized our strongest personnel group (RB) and lessened the impact of our weakest group (WR), especially after Grant went down. Also more pass protection and still allows for a running QB to do some damage. I am not a fan of DM who insists on calling plays that don't fit his personnel. Ultimately it is the coaching staff's primary job to put players in positions to use their strengths and minimize their weaknesses not the other way around.
This. Toledo and Bowling Green did not have any 4 or 5 star recruits.
Not even much 3 star talent, Saban and Meyer and their Staffs coaches up their players.
We will never get a Coach with their type of ability but directionally that's where we need to start.
First game showed guards not very athletic as DL ran right around RU players tripping on their own feet
We have improved defensively. Those players got better.
@gef21 - question for you - I thought Dorian Miller displayed solid footwork and did a good job of getting to the linebackers last year (although he was inconsistent at times). This past off season he bulked up, which I think has slowed him down. Do you think that is a possibility with him?
I think the offensive scheme change hurt him (as he was asked to do a lot of new things) and the bulk may have slowed him down.
Can the offensive coordinator at this stage of his career even diagnose what the problem is let alone find a solution for it? Never mind finding a solution on the fly in the mist of an offensive half, an offensive series, or set of downs without almost thinking about it.
Muller appears to have taken a step back which has not helped. I do not know if he is playing hurt or struggling with the schemes but he seems like a different player. I was and remain a fan of his but he is just not having the season I would have expected.
Agreed. They were also not coaching Toledo and Bowling Green against a B1G East schedule. Those results may have been a bit different if they faced 4 top ten teams in their first year as coaches.
True enough, but Meyer's last Utah team beat a Big East team (Pitt) by 28 in the Fiesta Bowl. And the team coached by the DC Meyer hired (Kyle Whittingham) hammered a very good Saban coached Alabama team in the Sugar Bowl.
Yes, but those wins did not come in Meyer or Whittingham's first year as a HC. They at least had a chance to build a program. The jury is out on Ash and this has been a putrid season but he was not expected to turn it around in one year.
Utah was a good program when Meyer left, and he was only there 2 years. I think they were undefeated his last year there. Whittingham didn't have to rebuild that program. Ash has to dig out from 4 years of mediocre recruiting and execrable player development. He has done some questionable things on offense personnel-wise, but it remains to be seen what kind of team this becomes.
Disagree. And I did not ask you, I asked gef21. Are you a coach or otherwise a football expert?
the only reason I can think of is there isn't enough time to allow the WR's to get downfield.
The most modern version of this is the famous Mike Tyson quote: "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."
IIRC our WR's dropped 5 passes, on 3 consecutive 3-and-outs, at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th quarters, alone, Saturday night. We have one of the worst receiving corps in the nation.
If your guards are as slow as dirt, they'd better be able to blow people off the ball. The issue with a pro set offense is that you need a physical FB who can wipe out LBs. At very least, you need TEs that can block. Above all, you need an o-line that gets consistent push. We haven't had any of that here in any abundance since about 2008. And in the last 3 seasons, RU's o-line has been thoroughly overmatched in the trenches against most B1G opponents, especially the better teams. Fixing any offensive problems starts with getting better line play.
You can go to an Ace formation (two TEs and single back) to make up for having no FB, but yes it starts with the line play. I do not think scheme helped our players but our players were not world beaters.
Really no way to argue with this. It's coaches who are inexperienced thinking they need to stand firm or are worried about a zillion things new to them that they miss the obvious. And lets be honest--a ton of obvious things have been missed this year.
GS did too but you could see building happening. Here it's been tough to see the building.
The Offense 3 and out just killed the defense as the season wore on. Only so much of a beating they could take given lack of depth. Just astonished how back the OL is and it is unclear if help is on the way. However, there is hope as Penn St. had 2 RS Frosh and 1 Frosh OL I think this year and are ranked high as a team. As game went on, the young line outplayed our DL, but much of that may have been due to wear and tear on our DL. Maybe with 2 recruiting classes under his belt, Ash can turn this. That means earliest we would see positive results would be 2018, and more likely, 2019. But the question still remains, do you still run what you want to run (which is what Coach K would preach from a basketball perspective) or do you adjust until you get the horses to do it. Chicken and egg? o_O
My entire life as a coach I have designed what I want to do around what I have with some base fundamentals. My offensive philosophy has always been create consistency and THEN when you get the stud athletes your offense will explode.
So does that suggest that we should have played a pro set with spread slowly integrated in as season wore on? Is that possible or something less than the spread seeing the personnel we had? (I'm not a coach, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express :grimace:)
Me personally, and again I have never coached at the BCS level but spent 2 years at the FCS and saw success, I would have run an offense with spread tendencies but not a read option team. I would have been run 2 x 1 sets with a TE and a single back/ sometimes an H back and run a lot of quick hitting stuff. I would have kept patton as the single WR and run grant/harris on the 2 side. I would have played a lot of games with harris/grant and eventually created a 3x1with the TE/H split out or another WR brought in.
I think jumping to a read option based offense without being able to run the read option was crazy.
We were a spread out wing T team this year that could not throw the ball or run the ball with a qb.
I think jumping to a read option based offense without being able to run the read option was crazy.
This is the major problem. Installing an offense based on the read option without an effective running QB is mystifying.
This is the major problem. Installing an offense based on the read option without an effective running QB is mystifying.
They didn't need it to win against their competition. You are aware they don't play in the B1G east right?
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