Heil does just enough to win. He had a few close 1 point victories at the NCAAs last couple years but always came out on top.
Richie Lewis
- Thread starter newwavedave1
- Start date
I'll be honest. Sometimes I wonder about the wrestling experience, in both participation and coaching, of posters here. It's almost mid-December and he can't go full speed with a guy he outweighs by 20 pounds? And you, apparently, view this as excellent news? It makes me wonder about his getting back into the lineup this season.
As to the 3/4 speed question, my opinion is its better to go 3/4 speed with wrestlers of a higher skill level than full speed with bigger wrestlers who are not as skilled when recovering from a shoulder injury. That way you can ease your way back into your skill level. But that probably seems bizarre to you.
Nope. While I don’t really understand WNG’s initial post or the necessity for it, you are just looking for a reason to be critical. AA’s rehab schedule is being handled by a qualified team of coaches, trainers, etc...They are way more qualified and more informed than you on what is the best course of action for him. I’m pretty sure I have asked you this before, without getting a response, but what are your credentials? D1 wrestler and from which conference? Coach? Athletic Trainer? I’m curious to see which of these experiences has given you such a firm grasp on how best to rehab, condition and train a college wrestler.
Your ongoing hatred of Goodale/staff is a joke. You keep referring to him as a HS coach, He took over a Division 1/3 program with 4 scholarships. and no fans and now has them top 20 and top 5 in attendance every year.. He has always reached out to wrestle the the best teams. He's already 153-55-1 against Division 1 teams and now with having a couple classes fully funded will start to show he's one of the Best. Calling him a HS coach shows you are just Hating!
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Why is it apparent to you that I view this as excellent news? The points you are making are common sense, but I don't understand why you think not working with Scott D and Suriano means he is working with heavier wrestlers. I take it to mean he is working out with backups, and is therefore not all that close to returning. But that's just my assumption based on what was said.
You seem to have a lot of negative viewpoints, that are based only on your assumptions. For example, you read all of this nonsense into a one line post, when you have no idea the injury status, who Ashnault was working with, when he started going live, when or if he intends to return, etc.
What most of you should know by now is that Suriano and Del are super competitive and never can go 3/4. Even a trained seal knows that. Ash worked with Nicky for a few weeks before Universities.
AA is cleared to wrestle but obviously you want to make sure he does not go so hard so soon that he aggravates the injury. Personally, I hope he does not come back this year. He will get a 6th year and be 100% next year. Nemesis like Heil and Jack are gone do he has a fresh start.
I also hope he doesn’t it push it to come back to early. Would like to see him take the whole year off as long as 1. He gets the 6th year and 2. He wants to come back next year. Although I wasn’t a college wrestler I have been around the sport a long time and it is a grind and takes a toll on your body. I wonder if he comes back next year if 149 is something he would consider?
Don Quixote lives!
1. Where did I refer to Goodale as a HS coach?
2. I didn't criticize the handling of AA's recovery. But when someone tells me excitedly that AA can't go with a guy he outweighs by 20 pounds in mid-December, I see that as bad news.The end of the season is about 3 months away. If AA can't go with a 125 today for fear of injury, how is he going to go with 141s (or 149s) in the near future?
Then we get more gems like this:
From one side of your mouth, he's cleared to wrestle. From the other side, you're worried about reinjury, so you don't want him to wrestle anyone too tough, even if much smaller, in practice in getting ready to wrestle guys his own size in matches? It makes little sense.
If he's been cleared to wrestle, why would going hard be an issue? If it is, then my 3/4 speed suggestion sounds even better, or he hasn't really been cleared to wrestle. Maybe he's been cleared to engage in some limited wrestling activities, which makes more sense. But if he is truly "cleared", I can't believe Suriano and DelV are so dopic that they couldn't manage to ease off the gas to help a teammate get back into wrestling form. They'd have to be real mouth-breathers to not get it.
I wrestled from age 15 to age 30, with one ill-considered foray into masters' wrestling after age 30. Just a D3 wrestler in college but wrestled with and against D1 to D3 wrestlers after college. Coached about 10 years. Again, just junior high level, but if you have a brain, it's not hard to extrapolate. Things like wrestling strategy remain fundamentally the same.
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I am pretty sure Mike Holmgren once coached HS ball before going to the NFL. I don't care that Goodale is a HS coach. But, there are times I am... frustrated...?... by decisions the staff makes. Its a LONG season. I don't get why gravina wrestled hurt. I don't get why RL isn't being given the NATO treatment.
Lock Haven shouldn't have gotten our A lineup. Iowa should have for SURE (too big of a match not to). Then rest up EVERYONE for midlands and make a run at that TEAM trophy. Then get your A team ready for big 10's... that means yes, sometimes Scott Del will see the bench for Mackall. Or gravina spectates to get healing time.
I think the "hs coach" label sticks not because he is a bad coach. Far from it... the man can coach wrestling. It sticks because he coaches as a team and not as a series of individuals with individual needs in the context of team. In HS sports its about the team. You are teaching kids how to work together, etc. In college, it isn't. Individuals go to college to get the best out of themselves (thats what the college experience is supposed to be for everyone.... supposed to be). Its frustrating that every coach preaches "we do whats best for every individual".... No one goes to Iowa from out of state to wrestle for Iowa. They go to hit THEIR goals. Its honorable to put team first, but a team is still individuals with individual goals in an individual sport.
Absolutly, just not not the non stop negative Nancy stuff. Keep that in PA
My buddy and I bought tickets for PP points but didn’t plan on going to any matches. Long story short we agreed to go to the Ohio st match....but then he read this thread re duals are like practice and backed out. No interest in showing up for a players/team that won’t show out for Rutgers.
Maybe next year...
Maybe next year...
It's your money and your time but for others who might have read the quote that you are making reference to I'd suggest you speak to any of the 6,700 plus who were in the RAC last Friday and ask their opinion. Better yet ask the other guys on the team who competed last Friday if it was a dual they wanted to win or just "practice". Go one step beyond and ask the guy who made the comment if he felt that way Friday night. I've been to many Rutgers practices and sit matside. Trust me. He wasn't in practice mode against that dude.
Every Rutgers wrestler showed up. Every one. Period.
One further suggestion if you indeed decide to stay home. Give your tickets to someone who will take a kid. I'm pretty sure we will have new season ticket holders in your place next season.
Wow, Really? I support all RU teams so I’m not going to throw shade at any other sports. Suffice it to say that the RU Wrestling team has represented the university extremely well on and off the mat. It is one of the most successful sports programs at the the school and competes (the operative word here) in the most difficult conference in the country. The conference has 14 teams, 9 of which are ranked in the top 25 including # 1, 2, 4, 7, 12, 13, 15, 16 and 21. RU is ranked 13. The team faces and competes with the best of the best almost every match. The lineup has a blend of youth and experienced guys with 5 guys ranked and a few more on the cusp of being ranked. We are going to get spanked by OSU (the entire team is ranked, many in the top 5) but you will see phenomenal wrestling and great effort as each dual has the team component but also wins and losses within the conference impact draws at the big 10 championships which help qualify each wrestler for the NCAA tournament. Your loss if you decide to bail. I hope you go to the match.
I’ll respond.
1. What was each of their bonus rates in HS? Without that, how can you compare the “development”?
2. Zain is a generational talent. He has beaten olympians and wrestled on the US national team. Heil is a tremendous wrestler but not at that level.
3. There is way higher top to bottom quality at 141 than 149 and has been for a few years.
With that said PSU has done a great job helping Zain reach his potential. Kudos. Iowa did a great job developing Gilman. Nebraska did a great job developing Burroughs and Green, etc...[/QUOTE]
I wasn't really talking about development, more about team and wrestler mindset. But, if you want to talk about development...
Zain's bonus rate by season: 41%, 88, 89, 100 (so far) Zain didn't wrestle open tournaments his redshirt year.
Heil's bonus rate by season: 59%, 33, 27, 41, 40 (so far)
It appears that regardless of talent, some teams have a mindset of "get the lead, then protect it," while others have a mindset of "don't stop scoring until the horn sounds." Is there any doubt that Zain could get a lead and hold it, rather than continuing to take the risk of setting up and taking shots for takedowns or could he ride a guy, rather than take the risk of trying to turn him? Is there any doubt that Heil has put the brakes on to protect a lead once he has it? Not a single bonus point victory over a top 20 guy? Come on.
So, "...Ok. St. team that consistently has a very high bonus percentage?" I'm a data guy, so let's take a look at that.
Bonus Win % OSU
Alex Dieringer: 71%
Jacobe Smith: 61%
Chandler Rogers: 50%
Kaid Brock: 48%
Anthony Collica: 43%
Joe Smith: 43%
Keegan Moore: 40%
Nick Piccininni: 40%
Gary Wayne Harding: 28%
Derek White: 26%
Now for PSU
Nolf 91.4%
Taylor 91.2%
Ruth 75%
Nickal 73%
Retherford 73
Hall 67%
Andrew Alton: 57%
Matt Brown: 57%
Shakur Rasheed: 54%
Vincenzo Joseph: 48%
BS that it's not coaching. It is a mindset that might be owned by the wrestler, but it's preached and reinforced by the coaches.
You are a data guy? Tell me data guy, how does what you posted refute my claim that Ok St. consistently has a high bonus percentage? In the 2016 NCAAs, PSU was #1 in bonus, Ok St. was #2.
Do you really think the Ok St. coaches do not reinforce the need for bonus points? Do you think Cael is the only person preaching offense? Do you not think a factor in the above percentages is that the top 5 guys are all-time college great type wrestlers? In order to prove what you are trying to prove, you would have to show me that PSU wrestlers improve their bonus percentage from high school more than Ok. St. wrestlers do. I don't think you can do that.
I think the racking up bonus points are a combination of mindset (as you stated above wrestler and reinforced by coach) and style. I don't think it is attributable to just one factor. Some guys are counter wrestlers ( particularly on their feet) and score that way and they are not aggressive in scoring offensive points and win low scoring matches and are comfortable winning low scoring matches. Not a bad thing, but that style does not ratch up team points in dual matches as you suggested. I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing to win individual matches by being a counter wrestler. The really good counter wrestlers are also well coached and have developed. Their style isn't as exciting or doesn't lead to as many points as guys like Nickal who have a wild repoitoire of throws. So, I think style comes into play from that perspective and I think style is a separate factor from mindset but both must be taken into consideration.
You pick one recent NCAA and consider that proof of anything? And I show the best wrestlers in the modern era of both coaches, and you don't see anything in that data? Try harder.
Try harder? You don't understand. Showing data from 2 teams only shows the difference about the 2 teams. And it shows that the best from PSU bonus more than the best from Ok St. That doesn't tell you anything about Ok St. team bonus percentage.
It does not refute my comment that Ok St, as a team, consistently has a very high bonus percentage. If you cannot see that, I do not know what to tell you.
I only gave you 2016, because that is all I could quickly find. But it does support my contention that Ok. St. has a high team bonus percentage. Your data is totally irrelevant to the conversation. If you can find the team numbers for other years, feel free to post them. Perhaps they will show me to be wrong. But I highly doubt it.
Your exact quote was, "despite the fact that he is on an Ok. St. team that consistently has a very high bonus percentage." And, you provided 2016 as one data point. That does not show anything about consistency. It shows one year's worth of data.
Next, I provided you a team that does consistently have very high bonus points, and the one that you claim has very high bonus points. AND, I provided Zain's progression through his years at PSU, versus Heil's at OSU. Improvement is evident for Zain. For Heil, not so much.
Your very original contention was that PSU wrestlers score lots of points, because they are all time great wrestlers. You didn't throw the high school wrinkle in, until I showed the data mentioned above. What follows from "Penn State scores lots of bonus because they are great wrestlers," is that you think Heil is not a great wrestler, despite having two national championships. Are you going to argue that Heil is not a great wrestler?
I'm going to assume you think Kyle Dake and Logan Steiber are all time great, generational wrestlers. Dake's bonus rate was 60.5%. And, we finally have a huge bonus guy, Stieber's was 80.6%.
Plus, I think your data is wrong about 2016. Pretty sure Ohio State had 17 bonus, OKState had 13.5, Penn State had 23. Quick addition on my part, so they could be off slightly. Last year, PSU scored 32.5 bonus points at NCAA. OKSU scored 13.
Thanks for the input. However, I disagree with winning by counter wrestling isn't a bad thing, and I think the NCAA agrees, based on recent rules changes.
The primary reason I disagree with it is it is boring and bad for the sport. I've not heard any wrestling fan say, "I love to watch Dean Heil wrestle." While I see lots and lots of fans say they love to watch Nolf, Zain, IMar, Dean, or Suriano, because they put points on the board. So, if avid wrestling fans don't want to watch a bunch of low scoring matches, how do we expect casual fans to come around?
The NCAA in the last couple of years has put in place rules to increase action. The leg dropdown rule, the OOB rules, the neutral fighting off of your back takedown rule, all in an effort to increase the action on the mat. Now, I think we need coaches to open up their wrestlers more. And, yes, I do think some coaches actively coach to win by one or two.
The worst that comes to mind was Villalonga from Cornell, but that might just be me because I was right in front of him and Zach Beitz at the Scuffle one year. Villalonga got the lead on a counter, then backed to the edge and countered the entire rest of the match. When PSU fans let him know about it, Damion Hahn mouthed, "Assholes" right at us. Villalonga earned the nickname Stallalonga that day.
I'm going to throw one more thing in here, that just arrived in my email. Casey Cunningham sends out team updates to all of the Penn State Wrestling Club fans from time to time, and as I finished my last message, I checked email, and this was in his letter, "Most of the crowd even stuck around yesterday to watch the heavyweight bout in which Nick Nevills opened up his offense on his feet. I will mention no names (Nick Nevills) but some heavyweights tend to take it personal when people leave during their match so we told him if he did not want people to leave he was going to have to keep scoring points. Nick did a nice job like the majority of the team of continuing to try to score points yesterday."
First, in order to avoid traffic, fans oftentimes start heading to the exits after 197. Casey is right that it was fewer fans than usual yesterday, despite a team score of 39-3. Here's what happened...Nick was winning comfortably 7-1 at the start of the third, with 2:12 riding time. He cut the Indiana kid, knowing he needed another point for the major, got another takedown (9-2), he cut the kid again at 1:15 (9-3), forced a stall call by pushing for another TD, and ended with the major at 11-3. That's a combination of coaching and mindset, if I ever saw it.
