The Neturei Karta are a fringe, extremist group of the Jewish religion. They certainly do not believe that Israel shouldn’t exist. They believe Israel should not exist right now. Their belief is Israel is for Jews and Jews only. They have an issue with the Arabs who live in Israel. And they intend to make the land Jewish only upon the return of their messiah.
Excellent. Thank you for your rational post. I’m not reading the entire response. I’m sure it includes words like genocide, occupation, and apartheid wrongly applied. There will also be a mention of fringe Jewish opinions. Trump, Charlottesville, and right wing Nazis will be used a reasoning for why left wing bigotry towards Jews is acceptable. Finally critiquing Israel will somehow be equalized to targeting and harassing Jewish people in America.1. The Arab goal in 1948 as clearly stated and acted upon was to drive the Jews into the sea. No co-existence. They failed but it wasnt for lack of trying. The status of Jews in the area pre 1917 British mandate, under the Ottoman empire and Arab rule was as Dhimmis. Dhimmi equals Jim Crow, red lining and Apartheid. Not acknowledging this demonstrates malice or stunning ignorance.
2. Ok, let’s set aside history and look at the current government in Gaza. Hamas leads based on a charter that calls for both the destruction of Israel and the destruction of the Jewish people. It does not allow a free press or freedom of religion. Homosexuality is a criminal offense punishable by death. Non Muslims do not have equal rights. Women do not have equal rights. Honor killings for women who are "immodest" is allowed. It does not allow elections. There is no independent court system. It provides luxurious housing and communities for Hamas families both in Gaza and abroad but nothing for the majority of its citizens. It relies on international aid for that. Its leaders are billionaires (Haniyeh and Mashal are worth 4 billion each). As a government its three main allies are Iran, Qatar and Russia.
So, this is the government of Gaza in 2024. I'll take Israel's imperfect democracy.
The examples you list above as proof of a non democratic, irredeemable Israel are laughable and literally disprove your statement by themselves.
Four protesters (two of whom were relatives of hostages) were arrested for blocking a road (look at the Israeli penal code). They were processed and released within 3 hours. The horror…
Judicial reform proposals (nothing has been passed) has been legally protested against by more than 20% of the population. That’s how democracies work.
The rabbi example is not worth refuting.
Governmental lack of vocal support on Ukraine has to do with the geopolitics of the region ie. Russia’s alliances with Syria, Iran, Hamas, etc and the hope to keep Russia from greenlighting attacks from these areas ie. protecting the citizens of Israel. But, you use this as proof of Israeli immorality when the perpetrator of these crimes against Ukraine, Russia, is a direct ally of Hamas.
Man, you are grasping at straws. I dont even know whatever point you are trying to make here but Jews from all over the world, in particular Russia, have been passively and actively rescued and integrated into Israel. I worked in an absorption center in Israel doing just this. Your gaslighting doesn’t work because I lived it. Should we bring Muslims killing other Muslims (Assad killing 500K of his own people in Syria alone) into this talking point of yours?
I’m also immune to your zoom in to obscure the bigger picture propaganda as well. The deaths of the aid workers was tragic but an awful consequence of war. In 2015 under Obama, a Doctors Without Borders trauma center in Kunduz was hit killing 42. It didn’t invalidate US objectives or the US military as a whole.
The system of government (based on miltary occupation) in the West Bank is a result of Palestinian violence and rejection of multiple land for peace offers. Land for peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan have held up. Why do you suppose that is? It is because Egypt and Jordan recognized Israel in word and deed and didnt have/gave up the destruction of Israel as a fundamental guiding principle. Until Palestinians reject this idea, there will be no peace. This includes giving up the right of return to within Israel's border. The Palestinians are the only group in the world that have been given multi-generational refugee status and its own UN agency to reinforce this. It is possibly the most harmful obstacle to peace and literally has no precedent in history. UNRWA is using schools as incubators to keep these ideas alive and we and the rest of the world are financially paying for it while Israelis and Palestinians are physically paying for it.
Back to the system of laws in the West Bank. The West Bank functions in an imperfect and unsustainable variation of Martial Law. Oslo was supposed to help fix this but it ultimately did not. Instead, the worse the violence the more steps have been taken to tighten security/the less freedoms the Palestinians in the West Bank have. I do not agree with a lot of the policies in the West Bank but I also understand how they came to be. Palestinians in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens and are subject to laws that reflect a form of 'wartime' provisions that is harsher and gives less rights than Israeli citizens. I wish Israel had just given the majority of the West Bank back to Jordan after the '67 war and said keep it secure or Israel will. But, as proven by the Arab League (Jordan was a member) the three no's of Khartoum (no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel) that was ot an option at the time.
So, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, history does matter. Causes have effects.
3. American Jews of all ages overwhelmingly support Israel. In the US it’s only the 18-25 demographic, not ethnicity specific, that has been poisoned by Qatari money and other forms of Dawa propaganda where the support hovers around 50%. Americans in general over 30 support Israel at around a 70% margin.
4. That you can try to assert that Israel is not democratic for Jew and Arabs within Israel's border when by every single category you are proved false shows the level of your indoctrination into a specific narrative. Here's Freedom House's score card for you to compare nations.
Countries and Territories
Freedom House rates people’s access to political rights and civil liberties in 210 countries and territories through its annual Freedom in the World report. Individual freedoms—ranging from the right to vote to freedom of expression and equality before the law—can be affected by state or...freedomhouse.org
5. Hmm, let's see...What is antisemitic about calling for the dismantling of one and only one UN sanctioned country because you dont like the current government's actions. Nothing as long as you equally apply the standards for the dismantling of a country to all. Let's compare some of the countries surrounding Israel that were formed as a result of the same map making decisions in 1917. Should we use the number of civilians the current leaders have killedas a criteria? The current Syrian government has killed 500k of its own citizens in the last 10 years. That's far more than the number of Palestinians have been killed by Israel. In fact its more than the entire number of Israelis and Arabs killed in all wars, terrorist acts, etc since the founding of the state of Israel in 1948. What about killing methods. Assad used chemical weapons against his own people. Dismantle Syria or no? Maybe the Israelis you'd displace when you dismantle Israel could go there and try to do better. But maybe the criteria isnt fair. Lets use the Freedom House scores to see who to dismantle first. Syria it is. They scored 1 (not free) on the score. Next comes Egypt, they scored 18 (not free). Jordan's next 33 (not free). Lebanon can make a case to not be dissolved with a score of 42 (partially free). Want to know what Gaza scored, 8 (not free). How about Israel (74) free. So, to reiterate, what is specifically antisemitic about the narrative you and others are spewing about Zionism and Israel is that you hold Israel to a different standard than other nations.
I'll leave with you with a few more thoughts. There is an old Jewish saying:
"The antisemite does not accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks he stole something. He does it because he enjoys watching the Jew turn out his pockets to prove his innocence."
This is why antisemites accuse Israel of 'genocide' and of making Gaza a 'concentration camp' when these assertions are so easily disproven. They specifically use this terminology because they know it will hurt a Jew because of the association to Jewish trauma.
Looking at the genocide claim for a second. The Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza between 1960 and 2020 grew from 1.1 million to 5.1 million. The average life expectancy of a Palestinian is aproximately 74 years. The world average is 71 years old. The average life expectancy of a Palestinian in 1950 was under 50 years. From the year 2000 to present day it increased from 58 years to the current 74 years. The West Bank and Gaza has a higher GDP per Capita than India and Venezuela and is higher than 55+ of the worlds nations.
The pre holocaust global Jewish population was 16.6 million. It currently stands at just under 16 million. It still hasn't fully recovered in 80 years. That is an attempted genocide. At the peak of the holocaust between August and October 1942, 15,000 Jews a day were murdered, 1.3 million Jews in that time period. That is the systematic killing of people in concentration camps and through death squads.
So, no people are not antisemitic for being critical of Israel's current government or Israel's execution of the war but they are most definitely antisemitic for calling for the dismantling of Israel or wittingly or unwittingly invoking specious claims of genocide, etc...
Done. Rutgers academics need to be destroyed. It’s a racist hate fest for losers and anti Americans.
Woah. The paralegal just got abused. Well done.1. The Arab goal in 1948 as clearly stated and acted upon was to drive the Jews into the sea. No co-existence. They failed but it wasnt for lack of trying. The status of Jews in the area pre 1917 British mandate, under the Ottoman empire and Arab rule was as Dhimmis. Dhimmi equals Jim Crow, red lining and Apartheid. Not acknowledging this demonstrates malice or stunning ignorance.
2. Ok, let’s set aside history and look at the current government in Gaza. Hamas leads based on a charter that calls for both the destruction of Israel and the destruction of the Jewish people. It does not allow a free press or freedom of religion. Homosexuality is a criminal offense punishable by death. Non Muslims do not have equal rights. Women do not have equal rights. Honor killings for women who are "immodest" is allowed. It does not allow elections. There is no independent court system. It provides luxurious housing and communities for Hamas families both in Gaza and abroad but nothing for the majority of its citizens. It relies on international aid for that. Its leaders are billionaires (Haniyeh and Mashal are worth 4 billion each). As a government its three main allies are Iran, Qatar and Russia.
So, this is the government of Gaza in 2024. I'll take Israel's imperfect democracy.
The examples you list above as proof of a non democratic, irredeemable Israel are laughable and literally disprove your statement by themselves.
Four protesters (two of whom were relatives of hostages) were arrested for blocking a road (look at the Israeli penal code). They were processed and released within 3 hours. The horror…
Judicial reform proposals (nothing has been passed) has been legally protested against by more than 20% of the population. That’s how democracies work.
The rabbi example is not worth refuting.
Governmental lack of vocal support on Ukraine has to do with the geopolitics of the region ie. Russia’s alliances with Syria, Iran, Hamas, etc and the hope to keep Russia from greenlighting attacks from these areas ie. protecting the citizens of Israel. But, you use this as proof of Israeli immorality when the perpetrator of these crimes against Ukraine, Russia, is a direct ally of Hamas.
Man, you are grasping at straws. I dont even know whatever point you are trying to make here but Jews from all over the world, in particular Russia, have been passively and actively rescued and integrated into Israel. I worked in an absorption center in Israel doing just this. Your gaslighting doesn’t work because I lived it. Should we bring Muslims killing other Muslims (Assad killing 500K of his own people in Syria alone) into this talking point of yours?
I’m also immune to your zoom in to obscure the bigger picture propaganda as well. The deaths of the aid workers was tragic but an awful consequence of war. In 2015 under Obama, a Doctors Without Borders trauma center in Kunduz was hit killing 42. It didn’t invalidate US objectives or the US military as a whole.
The system of government (based on miltary occupation) in the West Bank is a result of Palestinian violence and rejection of multiple land for peace offers. Land for peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan have held up. Why do you suppose that is? It is because Egypt and Jordan recognized Israel in word and deed and didnt have/gave up the destruction of Israel as a fundamental guiding principle. Until Palestinians reject this idea, there will be no peace. This includes giving up the right of return to within Israel's border. The Palestinians are the only group in the world that have been given multi-generational refugee status and its own UN agency to reinforce this. It is possibly the most harmful obstacle to peace and literally has no precedent in history. UNRWA is using schools as incubators to keep these ideas alive and we and the rest of the world are financially paying for it while Israelis and Palestinians are physically paying for it.
Back to the system of laws in the West Bank. The West Bank functions in an imperfect and unsustainable variation of Martial Law. Oslo was supposed to help fix this but it ultimately did not. Instead, the worse the violence the more steps have been taken to tighten security/the less freedoms the Palestinians in the West Bank have. I do not agree with a lot of the policies in the West Bank but I also understand how they came to be. Palestinians in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens and are subject to laws that reflect a form of 'wartime' provisions that is harsher and gives less rights than Israeli citizens. I wish Israel had just given the majority of the West Bank back to Jordan after the '67 war and said keep it secure or Israel will. But, as proven by the Arab League (Jordan was a member) the three no's of Khartoum (no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel) that was ot an option at the time.
So, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, history does matter. Causes have effects.
3. American Jews of all ages overwhelmingly support Israel. In the US it’s only the 18-25 demographic, not ethnicity specific, that has been poisoned by Qatari money and other forms of Dawa propaganda where the support hovers around 50%. Americans in general over 30 support Israel at around a 70% margin.
4. That you can try to assert that Israel is not democratic for Jew and Arabs within Israel's border when by every single category you are proved false shows the level of your indoctrination into a specific narrative. Here's Freedom House's score card for you to compare nations.
Countries and Territories
Freedom House rates people’s access to political rights and civil liberties in 210 countries and territories through its annual Freedom in the World report. Individual freedoms—ranging from the right to vote to freedom of expression and equality before the law—can be affected by state or...
5. Hmm, let's see...What is antisemitic about calling for the dismantling of one and only one UN sanctioned country because you dont like the current government's actions. Nothing as long as you equally apply the standards for the dismantling of a country to all. Let's compare some of the countries surrounding Israel that were formed as a result of the same map making decisions in 1917. Should we use the number of civilians the current leaders have killedas a criteria? The current Syrian government has killed 500k of its own citizens in the last 10 years. That's far more than the number of Palestinians have been killed by Israel. In fact its more than the entire number of Israelis and Arabs killed in all wars, terrorist acts, etc since the founding of the state of Israel in 1948. What about killing methods. Assad used chemical weapons against his own people. Dismantle Syria or no? Maybe the Israelis you'd displace when you dismantle Israel could go there and try to do better. But maybe the criteria isnt fair. Lets use the Freedom House scores to see who to dismantle first. Syria it is. They scored 1 (not free) on the score. Next comes Egypt, they scored 18 (not free). Jordan's next 33 (not free). Lebanon can make a case to not be dissolved with a score of 42 (partially free). Want to know what Gaza scored, 8 (not free). How about Israel (74) free. So, to reiterate, what is specifically antisemitic about the narrative you and others are spewing about Zionism and Israel is that you hold Israel to a different standard than other nations.
I'll leave with you with a few more thoughts. There is an old Jewish saying:
"The antisemite does not accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks he stole something. He does it because he enjoys watching the Jew turn out his pockets to prove his innocence."
This is why antisemites accuse Israel of 'genocide' and of making Gaza a 'concentration camp' when these assertions are so easily disproven. They specifically use this terminology because they know it will hurt a Jew because of the association to Jewish trauma.
Looking at the genocide claim for a second. The Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza between 1960 and 2020 grew from 1.1 million to 5.1 million. The average life expectancy of a Palestinian is aproximately 74 years. The world average is 71 years old. The average life expectancy of a Palestinian in 1950 was under 50 years. From the year 2000 to present day it increased from 58 years to the current 74 years. The West Bank and Gaza has a higher GDP per Capita than India and Venezuela and is higher than 55+ of the worlds nations.
The pre holocaust global Jewish population was 16.6 million. It currently stands at just under 16 million. It still hasn't fully recovered in 80 years. That is an attempted genocide. At the peak of the holocaust between August and October 1942, 15,000 Jews a day were murdered, 1.3 million Jews in that time period. That is the systematic killing of people in concentration camps and through death squads.
So, no people are not antisemitic for being critical of Israel's current government or Israel's execution of the war but they are most definitely antisemitic for calling for the dismantling of Israel or wittingly or unwittingly invoking specious claims of genocide, etc...
You’re almost there but just still can’t admit the difference between critiquing policy of a foreign entity and patterns of harassing and targeting behaviors towards individuals or a group who represent an identity.
Woah!! I’m not determining who is Jewish and who isn’t. Basic statics show the Jews you cite to explain it’s ok to harass and target Jewish kids at Rutgers are of the minority opinion when it comes to Zionism. So yes, there views should be given less weight.
www.bbc.com
A Pattern Of Events. This is what is of discussion here. Rationalizing individual circumstances is not justifying the pattern of events. And that is where harassment and targeting against a certain people come into play.What does it mean "accept"? Is that allegation Rutgers allows egg throwing? It's clear they don't. Do they accept speech as the 1A requires? They do. Where exactly are they falling afoul of either the law or their own rules?
As someone who posts on the CEsspool you are well aware that, yes, people on the far right claim daily here that Rutgers (among others) (falsely) is suppressing their speech. That they are targeted. That is in fact, of course, false.
And actually, Chinese students not just in the US, globally, have claimed Western universities are discriminating against them for publicizing and promoting discussions on campus about the Uighurs, Hong Kong, Tibet, COVID origins...etc
The students calling out China on Australia's campuses
Students in Australia speaking out against the Chinese state are facing threats and intimidation.
The difference is that 99% of Americans feel that one can criticize China without being labeled racist. OTOH, you are making the argument that chanting "resistance" is anti-Semitic and would have political backers like the laugh riot in Congress agreeing. OTOH, if someone shouted "resistance" at a meeting about anti-Asian discrimination, of which there are real and virulent strains, no one would assert that the person is anti-Asian or anti-Chinese.
You are attempting to conflate all Jewish students with criticism of people on campus supporting Israel. It is not only absurd but would not be tolerated with China. It would not be tolerated as well to say that any Zionist student agrees with, say, the congressman who said "nuke Gaza."
You'd have to ask yourself why you're not allowing for that nuance, though I could guess.
Minority views within a group always have the right to say what they want. My point was taking that view and then representing it as the majority view or worthy of countering the majority view. It doesn’t and it doesn’t justify targeting people because they are Jewish or Jews who believe in the state of Israel. And that’s what is happening at Rutgers.
It’s still all a pattern of events that are targeting and harassing Jewish students. Regardless of their beliefs of Israel. Even if your very downplayed versions of the events were true it’s still against the student code of conduct. And those events represent a pattern of targeting and harassing. (Glad youre finally admitting these events exist and happened) Someone can be a Nazi, a terrorist or even a convicted murderer and they still are protected from a pattern of events that show they are being targeted and harassed. That’s what is happening here and Rutgers is not enforcing their own rules.
I haven’t read all the back and forth here but as it pertains to the student videos posted early in this thread they are punishable offenses both by Rutgers University and NJ law.
“A pattern of events….” Well documented legal jargon speaking to this. The laws are there too and the student code of conduct. It isn’t just chanting at a public function. Although there chants of intifada and “River to the sea” can be part of the pattern of events. There are other events including disrupting classrooms, especially classrooms with Jewish students, disrupting common spaces like the library and a cafeteria, the targeting of the Hillel house by throwing eggs, the social media posts targeting the Hillel House, the posting of the Jewish students photo outside her dorm, the social media and in person harrassment of the Jewish student at Newark Law. As I have said before, put all of it together it’s clearly a pattern of events harassing and targeting Jewish students. None of this would ever be acceptable for any other group of students. Rutgers has an antisemitism problem and it’s coming from the student body and faculty.
No clue. Do your own work. All you do is move goalposts. You keep saying that all these actions are protected by the First Amendment. I was demonstrating that they are not protected. No clue whether they are enforced or prosecuted. Part of the point is that it is shameful when a Q and A with the President of the University is disrupted to the point that the function has to be shut down. It is a clear violation of school policy. It is also completely counterproductive. Maybe instead ask for clarification of the school’s investment practices. Maybe work towards the school divesting from investment in anything related to the defense industry or weapons industry involving any country, etc… Instead they just chose to waste the opportunity to speak with the President. This was a performative and premeditated unsanctioned protest with the goal of disrupting the meeting and harassing the people attending, specifically anyone Israeli or Jewish.
No, in actual words, I said exactly what I meant. I gave you the section of the Rutgers code of conduct that was violated. Whether the university chooses to enforce the policy is up to them. However if they don’t, they leave themselves open to scrutiny and a possible lawsuit which I hope someone files.
It is still a pattern of events targeting a certain group of people. You may want to downplay those events, but even you acknowledge the pattern of events. It’s not up to Rutgers administration to decide if their own code of conduct is enforceable. It was adopted with the expectation the administration will enforce it. If it is challenged in court, and ruled against, it will need to be changed at that point. It doesn’t matter how you or anyone else feels about Israel. It is expected the laws and code of conduct are enforced for all students equally. That is not happening right now at Rutgers and it is the Jewish students as the victims. Their beliefs on Israel are of no regard here. There are more and more schools who have handled this according to laws and campus codes of conduct. Vanderbilt is one. USC just had to remove their valedictorian from a graduation speech because they are finally following the law. Rutgers continues to have an antisemitism problem within the student body and their faculty. The administration and staff are going to have to follow and enforce laws and code of conduct as expected. If they can’t it shows their bias.
Dodging what? Scroll up. Numerous posters have provided you with these. To the point you debated if they were enforceable. You have the answer.
You have been provided with numerous events that demonstrate a pattern. Together, the pattern creates an antisemitic culture at Rutgers. And it’s coming from the students and faculty at Rutgers. There are a number of examples throughout this thread. I understand you are challenging each and every event as permissible under 1A. There are a few that are rather easy to argue against given laws and the code of conduct. Regardless, Jewish students are a protected class and Rutgers has a duty to ensure that are not targeted and harassed even if that includes an overall culture of antisemitism. Look no further than Columbia on their campus today and in DC. It’s no accident that they are under investigation and today numerous Columbia reps testified these “protests” are antisemitic. Even the president testified to specific antisemitic actions as the protests. The president also testified five professors have been fired due to social media posts or speeches deemed antisemitic. She even explained she is in the process of demoting a tenured department chair due to his speech. Last I heard, on campus, the police were pulling in busses to arrest protestors on campus today. These are all the exact issues Rutgers has. Today, Columbia took action against some of these issues. I would imagine the Columbia legal team made these decisions with a superior grasp of 1A law than you. I also imagine there will be challenges and we will get to see how this plays out.
