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So the "great" AD Pernetti

Dr. Potato

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Oct 16, 2014
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Fired Gary Waters a coach that won 20 games at RU to put in Fred Hill and then Mike Rice.

Is this correct?

Now we have this?

If so please tell me why he isn't one of the dumbest people to ever get overpaid for making horrible decisions.
 
Please get your facts straight before coming here and mouthing off a lot of crap

Troll
 
Sorry but forgot who fired Waters. So shoot me. I googled it and got 5 pages of Mike Rice stuff. Finally found one article and no mention of which BB genius AD fired him and hired Fred Hill.

Stop blaming in on the money. It's bad decisions too.

Money is not the answer to everything.
 
Originally posted by Dr. Potato:
Sorry but forgot who fired Waters. So shoot me. I googled it and got 5 pages of Mike Rice stuff. Finally found one article and no mention of which BB genius AD fired him and hired Fred Hill.

Stop blaming in on the money. It's bad decisions too.

Money is not the answer to everything.
Didn't realize google searches are limited to one. You using some weird browser or something?
 
Waters was a very good coach and a very poor recruiter at RU. Mulcahy forced Waters to hire "Freddie" and canned Waters when he saw an opportunity. I think that if Mulcahy have kept Waters/Freddie combo for a few recruiting seasons, Waters would have brought RU back to the tournament. Big mistake by Mulcahy...
This post was edited on 2/24 11:18 AM by RU_WL
 
Yes, ban anyone who tries to bring up any facts. Good thinking.

Rutgers firing Waters after a 19 win season to hire that retarded midget was absurd.

Money does not cure incompetence or stupidity.
 
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
 
Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
 
Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:


Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
His alma mater, Fordam, passed on him. I think that says something.
 
Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:


Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
it wasn't necessarily a bad hire...especially since the pool on candidates was small and money was extremely tight. He was the only guy half decent that RU could hire who wouldn't make facility demands. Rice was on that coaching list on candidates I put out in Feb of that year but I think there were others we wanted more.....Gianni from La Salle, Donahue who has been at bust since moving from Cornell to BC, Amaker, and McCaffery who was at Siena, I wanted him, I think he would have came, he interviewed at SHU
 
I liked Waters. I think he had a good relationship with the players and was almost like a father figure on campus to them. He pulled some big wins over top 25 teams. We may have gotten 1 more season with him and Hill together before Hill was hired as a head coach somewhere.
 
I believe that Iowa gave McCaffrey much bigger money than RU would have offered him. More than $ 1M per year if I'm not mistaken. RU was not playing in that salary league when Freddie got jettisoned. Rice was a winning coach at the right price for RU at the time.
 
Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:

Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
Some people thought he was a terrible hire that at the time and acted like a lunatic on the bench. He even told TP that I hear.
 
Originally posted by RU85inFla:

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:

Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
Some people thought he was a terrible hire that at the time and acted like a lunatic on the bench. He even told TP that I hear.
I don't recall many voices of dissent. He was actually a hot candidate coming off their NCAA tournament appearance and he had an excellent winning percentage. And let's face it, he hit the ground running with recruiting. Had he not imploded, all those guys would be seniors now. But it was never meant to be because he was nuts.
 
a question I have...we knew Rice right a way pushed the envelope too far. It was crystal clear as a fan going to games and I posted it constantly.

Was Mike Rice controllable and is the athletic department to blame for not doing more/anything to get Rice on the right path?

At the end of the day Rice's downfall was not chucking basketball at players, it was his relationship with Murdock. I will never forget an embarrasing exchange he had with Murdock on the bench during a game.

On a seperate note.

I spent a lot of time watching Rice and his reactions to what was going on in games and his communications with players. I always felt he saw the same things I saw when watching the game. When a guy was late to help or a guard missed an open look he'd see it and say something (99.9% in a constructive way). In post game press conferences I felt he was very in tune with what I saw on the court. I almost feel Jordan is watching a completely different game.
 
FIG nailed it 100%.

Rice was/is a very good coach who has the passion and intensity that any fan would want to see their coach have.

It was his relationship with Murdoch that created this mess. Since we are talking facts, I believe that Murdoch brought this up AFTER he was fired.

And yes, Eddie Jordan is watching a completely different game than the rest of us.
 
Originally posted by Knightmoves:
I believe that Iowa gave McCaffrey much bigger money than RU would have offered him. More than $ 1M per year if I'm not mistaken. RU was not playing in that salary league when Freddie got jettisoned. Rice was a winning coach at the right price for RU at the time.
Actually McCaffery wasn't even available when we hired Rice. He was hired earlier. IIRC FHJ wasn't going to be fired because we weren't going to pay to let him go. TP even came out and said he wasn't going to be fired. Only when FHJ had that baseball debacle were we able to let him go and that was later in the offseason after many other coaches had been hired already.

IIRC the candidates suggested at the time were Fraschilla (who wanted upgrades so it was non starter), Al Skinner and Rice.I liked Al Skinner myself because he won without stellar recruits and he coached in the BE. People here though thought he was a lazy recruiter and past it. I had no problems with Rice though, he won a high level in his 3 years at Robert Morris. I didn't realize he was so animated though.

The only exposure to him was when he was screwed by Nova in the tourney and I thought he was justified to be heated in that game. I didn't realize it was a full time persona of his though. That's something the general fans won't know especially coming from a small college but the AD has to do due diligence on. I think TP was warned about him but he took the risk anyway because he thought that passion/fire was what was needed to lift the program. When a risk works out it's great but when it doesn't you take the blame as well.

Regardless, need to figure out how to get out of our seemingly bottomless pit not focus on the past.

This post was edited on 2/24 10:20 AM by rutgersguy1
 
FIG, you are 100% right about the management of Mike Rice. Everyone makes mistake, and probably Tim's biggest one was not doing enough to manage Mike's excesses. His other mistake was not leaking that tape to the media when it first appeared in December.
 
Originally posted by RU85inFla:

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:

Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
Some people thought he was a terrible hire that at the time and acted like a lunatic on the bench. He even told TP that I hear.
There was a clear difference between year 1 and year 2 and 3. Rice was very respectful to officials and in public respected his players. I was a huge Rice critic at first, but he was starting to grow on me.

The ball throwing was not a deal breaker for me....making fun of Kone and Biruta background was WAY over the line and got him what he deserved in my eyes.....complete lowlife does that.
 
if you recalled he handled the bad call at the big east tournament very well
 
Originally posted by bac2therac:
Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:


Originally posted by bac2therac:
Rutgers again on the cheap is why Hill was fired ...extended then not fired In March to save money..they fired him 6 weeks later but that meant another botched improper coaching search with a small candidate pool
overlooked point...although Rice was a good hire at the time.
it wasn't necessarily a bad hire...especially since the pool on candidates was small and money was extremely tight. He was the only guy half decent that RU could hire who wouldn't make facility demands. Rice was on that coaching list on candidates I put out in Feb of that year but I think there were others we wanted more.....Gianni from La Salle, Donahue who has been at bust since moving from Cornell to BC, Amaker, and McCaffery who was at Siena, I wanted him, I think he would have came, he interviewed at SHU
Except that there were warning signs of a possible anger management issues that were not properly vetted. SHU gave Rice only a telephone interview, partly because we just got rid of a nut job in Gonzo, and partly because Hobbs (SHU's Law School Dean) received a phone call from Petino pushing Willard for the job. Hobbs had his mind set on Willard after the Petino phone call.
 
I don't believe he had anger management problems. His belief of what is right and acceptable is totally out of whack at times, in a big way.
 
Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
I don't believe he had anger management problems. His belief of what is right and acceptable is totally out of whack at times, in a big way.
Yes, throwing a basketball at somebody is anger management problems. Not being able to understand what is acceptable or not falls under "management problems".
 
Originally posted by Dr. Potato:
Yes, ban anyone who tries to bring up any facts. Good thinking.

Rutgers firing Waters after a 19 win season to hire that retarded midget was absurd.

Money does not cure incompetence or stupidity.
When stating facts, the poster should try to get them right .
 
To the OP:

Waters could not recruit. He could coach, and had a couple of key players that could (and did) take him far (Douby for the most part).

That run was coming to an end, though, and recruiting was wearing thin. I think the decision to bring on Hill (or anybody) to assist with the recruiting and leave Waters to coach WAS a smart move, and Hill's ability to recruit was well-respected in the area. The Waters-Hill tandem should have been given more time to work; but Hill was most likely a head coach in waiting for a few reasons.

It seemed like Mulcahy jumped the gun, but the situation could have been uncomfortable to all and the Kent State HOF situation gave Mulcahy the opening to remove Waters.

In hindsight, knowing what we now know of Hill's tenure, it looked like a huge mistake. At the time it didn't look like a terrible move to fire Waters -- the mistake was replacing him with Hill.
 
He recruited Quincy Douby and got 1 year to coach the FIG class. He had a few bad classes, but saying he couldn't recruit is WRONG.
 
Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
I don't believe he had anger management problems. His belief of what is right and acceptable is totally out of whack at times, in a big way.
Yes, throwing a basketball at somebody is anger management problems. Not being able to understand what is acceptable or not falls under "management problems".
But I don't think that Rice threw basketballs because he was angry. I think he threw basketballs because he thought being excitable was an acceptable way to show his passion and because he thought throwing basketballs at players (and insulting them) was an acceptable way of motivating them and getting them to play harder.

Knowing Rice's red flags when he was hired, Rutgers had an obligation to monitor him and make sure he understood the boundaries of what was acceptable or unacceptable. (And it is not like Pernetti couldn't watch basketball practices, which were held on the floor of the RAC, and it is not like no one ever commented or complained to Pernetti before Murdoch tried to blackmail Rutgers.)
 
FIG - TP was told Rice had issues by many prior to the hire. Just because you don't know/believe this at this point doesn't make it go away.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by megadrone:
To the OP:

Waters could not recruit. He could coach, and had a couple of key players that could (and did) take him far (Douby for the most part).
I'd upgrade him to better than average coach. He was definitely knowledgable down to even the small details of a proper box out.

Things that I think you left out in that one little sentence:

* Best dressed coach

* Made you wonder whether "Gaptards" on this board referred to the football stadium or his smile

* Was NOT personable at all

* Highly dependent on some great assistant coaches / great people (Coach D, Mance, Jimmy Carr, etc) to keep players cohesive/eligible/motivated/happy. Trust me, this was Jimmy Carr's program.

* A bit too loyal at times (Coach Heck was AWFUL)

* Waters could recruit some decent players, with Douby being the only real superstar he was able to bring in, but I'd GLADLY take Calvin Wooten or Adrian Hill on this team at any time, along with other good players along the way. We haven't had a 30-point-on-any-given-night scorer on this team in ages. Mack's carried this team, but since Eli left he's been doing it on his own.

* Forget the whole "Kent State Snowgate" incident. The guy had zero bad bones in his body, and we haven't sniffed at getting a guy with ZERO baggage like Coach Waters.

His problem was that we got spoiled with 18-13, 16-15 type seasons and needed something to get us over the top. We needed somebody to get us recruits like Corey Chandler (god, what a disaster with his career). So we went to Freddie after pretending we had a good reason to get rid of Waters for cheap.
 
ok so I overstated the "couldn't recruit" angle -- it wasn't top flight recruiting for the Big East 2.0.

Given what we've seen since, though, Waters looks like Adolph Rupp, John Wooden and Coach K combined. And yes, the Kent State fiasco was contrived to get rid of him -- obviously he didn't go without Mulcahy's permission. He also thought it would take 6 to 7 years to clean up after Bannon's mess.

We wanted winners, we got rid of someone who gave us mediocrity (more or less) with the lightning in a bottle run.



This post was edited on 2/24 1:53 PM by megadrone
 
Originally posted by Dr. Potato:
Fired Gary Waters a coach that won 20 games at RU to put in Fred Hill and then Mike Rice.

Is this correct?

Now we have this?

If so please tell me why he isn't one of the dumbest people to ever get overpaid for making horrible decisions.
the year Waters won 20 games was back when the NIT tried to get northeast teams to the quarter finals at the garden......RU won three home games against patsies to get to MSG...the NIT no longer uses this tactic.

so you look back now and see 20 wins, but the season was really 17 wins....and during the actual season RU was once again finishing in the back of the pack, in league.....if RU had "really" won 20 games we would have gone to the NCAA.... they finished 8th in league with a 7-9 record

one thing Waters did do was have us beat several top 20 teams at home, you have to give him that.....but we were continually dreadful on the road, and almost never won a league game away....thus we treaded water as a sub .500 team in league, the overall record boosted by out of conference games......

we finished 7th 8th, 12th and 9th in league his last 4 years.

so we made no progress in the big east during his coaching years.
 
Originally posted by RU85inFla:
FIG - TP was told Rice had issues by many prior to the hire. Just because you don't know/believe this at this point doesn't make it go away.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
If TP read this board or the SHU board, he would have figured that out.

Rice had two missions - turn the basketball team around and not be Bobby Gonzales. Given that Pernetti hired Rice, he owned him. It was his job to closely monitor that coach given his reputation.

There is a tremendous amount of failure on both their parts. The program was deeply damaged.
 
Originally posted by Upstream:


Originally posted by PhilaPhans:

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
I don't believe he had anger management problems. His belief of what is right and acceptable is totally out of whack at times, in a big way.
Yes, throwing a basketball at somebody is anger management problems. Not being able to understand what is acceptable or not falls under "management problems".
But I don't think that Rice threw basketballs because he was angry. I think he threw basketballs because he thought being excitable was an acceptable way to show his passion and because he thought throwing basketballs at players (and insulting them) was an acceptable way of motivating them and getting them to play harder.

Knowing Rice's red flags when he was hired, Rutgers had an obligation to monitor him and make sure he understood the boundaries of what was acceptable or unacceptable. (And it is not like Pernetti couldn't watch basketball practices, which were held on the floor of the RAC, and it is not like no one ever commented or complained to Pernetti before Murdoch tried to blackmail Rutgers.)
He had a method to his madness...comfortable in chaos that's why you threw basketballs at them. Of course what you never saw that after practice the players well except Biruta and Kone were perfectly fine with it and were putting Rice in headlocks and having fun. The fact that none of the players made a major complaint about it is pretty striking. Biruta left..Kone was going to transfer but he actually stayed another year.

not excusing Rice but this wasn't a simple abuse case like the media likes to portray it. that's what I don't like about the whole fallout, it wasn't an accurate portrayal of what was going on.
 
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