THE difference in the qb decision question

[ru-baby]

This debate has one on now for over a year and won't die soon but in the end it comes down to one main difference and yesterday again showed that. The rest (what each would do as a leader if given the mantle by coach (and don't underestimate how reactions change to someone when they are named the starter), grasp of O, accuracy, performance under pressure and adversity-short or prolonged, etc) are points where arguments can be made for either. There is one topic that doesn't appear to be a real dispute however.

Rettig is a WEAPON-Laviano is not. That should be the decider. Their td's yesterday personified this. CL threw a screen and Grant ran it in about 30 yards. HR got 6 with one long pass, and is a risk to do so to the opposition on any play. CL creates no such risk to the opposition. CL completes the short ones, but we saw Rettig hit 6 or 7 in a row on one drive.

In looking at this team, there is no Carroo to the rescue. This team needs all the WEAPONS it can muster on O (I don't see an argument for a game manager). We saw a number of games in a row with no td passes (4?). Doesn't seem likely Rettig would produce that same result. I felt last year with how long he was out of fball HR needed a ton of meaningful snaps to get playing ready. He didn't get that and still needs to get out there in live situations if there's a chance at taking the weapon potential and making it work. Thus, with a need for game changers on O, Rettig's ability to be a weapon on any given play should tip the balance and give him a shot to make it work. Again, all the rest (while disputed) can be argued both ways, but whether or not one is a weapon for the O appears somewhat clear from the data we have. That's how I think it will and should end up.

 

[miketd1]

Re watched my DVR 2x. I'm on #teamrettig, but he never sees the open check down. Instead of taking the 5 yard check down and moving the chains, he'd throw an incomplete 30 yard pass and we're punting. Head scratching stuff. Watch the tape.

 

[Dpgru]

ru-baby I agree with you only if all else is equal. Then you are correct. Rettig's ability to stretch the field more than Laviano would be the decider. But Ash and his staff know what they need at the QB position and if they feel Laviano gives them a better chance overall then it will be CL who starts. One thing that I believe is true, however, is that the people who believe that Rettig is clearly better are wrong. He has had ample opportunity to separate himself from the others and he has failed to do so. The same is true in reverse. Laviano is certainly not clearly better than Rettig either. This is going to go way into the summer and I think it will give Odin an opportunity to be the starter as a true freshman. If he is as good as they are he might as well be the starter with four years ahead of him. In any event, if there are any 4 and 5 star elite spread type QB's out there RU is a place they can get an opportunity to play.

 

[Knight Ed]

Rettig had 4 shots at the end zone at the end of the game and came up blank. Funny how some people choose to ignore that. I doubt Ash will.

 

[Groz]

Ash was a coach on the national championship team that used multiple QB's(granted injuries forced it) and then a team that used 2 QB's on a real good team last year and also had their original QB move to wide receiver when he became healthy last year.

I would think that both Laviano and Rettig will be both be getting playing time, regardless of who wins the competition at the end of the summer. IF NOT, then that means that we are probably undefeated for the year..................

Best of Luck,
Groz

 

[Dpgru]

Rettig had 4 shots at the end zone at the end of the game and came up blank. Funny how some people choose to ignore that. I doubt Ash will.

Do not misunderstand me here I am not defending Rettig but I think that Ash decided he wanted to see his fg kicker try a long field goal at the end of the game so they told Rettig to throw for the end zone. If they scored fine, if not, he wanted a long fg attempt so they made no attempt to pick up yardage. As a result Rettig threw what were the equivalent of hail marys at the end of the game? All the DB's were backed up.

 

[Knight Ed]

Do not misunderstand me here I am not defending Rettig but I think that Ash decided he wanted to see his fg kicker try a long field goal at the end of the game so they told Rettig to throw for the end zone. If they scored fine, if not, he wanted a long fg attempt so they made no attempt to pick up yardage. As a result Rettig threw what were the equivalent of hail marys at the end of the game? All the DB's were backed up.

Wow is that a reach. Did you believe that when you were typing it?

 

[Dpgru]

Wow is that a reach. Did you believe that when you were typing it?

It is exactly what I thought while watching it the other night. I couldn't understand why they kept stopping the clock after each pass when the rest of the quarter was played with a running clock that only stopped after each possession change. Then with 4 seconds left Ash stopped the clock again and brought on the kicker. Quite frankly I think he was essentially trying the hail marys and a long end of game field goal. Clearly I could be wrong but it looked that way to me.

 

[Knight Ed]

The Rettig faithful have officially gone off the deep end.

 

[lighty]

He has had ample opportunity to separate himself from the others and he has failed to do so.

Once again... ample opportunity when? In practice?

All people wanted last season was the chance to see if Rettig or anyone else could fare any better than Laviano - especially when Laviano was struggling. Maybe Rettig sucks in practice, maybe not. It certainly sounds like the idea that the idea that Rettig wasn't playing was because he isn't bright has been downplayed ever since he earned a spot on the Big-Ten All-Academic Team. So now the theory is that he's simply not a good leader. That may or may not have any truth to it. But there's NO DEBATING the fact that RU fans never got to see Rettig on the field in any game but Norfolk State when the game could still be won. And we never got to see him attempt a single pass to RU's best wide receiver.

So, once again, where was this ample opportunity you speak of?

 

[ru-baby]

The debate of course continues, but appears all in agreement CL is no weapon.

And it doesn't have to be equal to play the higher upside--the very nature of being a weapon is what tips the scale. Plus we did see arguably more consistency from than CL. The last few plays were dropped db's and seemed to be the same winded receivers going deep into traffic repeatedly. Only thing that data is useful for is an argument points on a pre-conceived agenda. That we will see and havee seen.

 

[Knight Shift]

All in agreement. . . . . .
Let the coaches do their jobs. They see a lot more than we see and get paid well for it.

 

[Dpgru]

Once again... ample opportunity when? In practice?

All people wanted last season was the chance to see if Rettig or anyone else could fare any better than Laviano - especially when Laviano was struggling. Maybe Rettig sucks in practice, maybe not. It certainly sounds like the idea that the idea that Rettig wasn't playing was because he isn't bright has been downplayed ever since he earned a spot on the Big-Ten All-Academic Team.
So now the theory is that he's simply not a good leader. That may or may not have any truth to it. But there's NO DEBATING the fact that RU fans never got to see Rettig on the field in any game but Norfolk State when the game could still be won. And we never got to see him attempt a single pass to RU's best wide receiver.

So, once again, where was this ample opportunity you speak of?

They started the spring with an open QB competition. They have been essentially dead even all spring. If he is so much better and has so much more talent as so many of you imply, and Laviano is so bad and only played because Flood wouldn't change then why hasn't he blown Laviano away. As I see it Laviano is not that good and Rettig can't take the job away. How much of an opportunity do you need to win the job from someone who isn't any good at it. Ample enough?

 

[Yeah Baby]

Both had their moments good and bad. Neither won the job. Stop building cases and let the staff do their job.

 

[Dpgru]

Both had their moments good and bad. Neither won the job. Stop building cases and let the staff do their job.

Agree completely. They have both been good and both been bad. Why anyone thinks one is significantly better than the other amazes me. They are going to fight this out to the end of summer. The coaches will decide which one provides the best opportunity to win.

 

[KnightsofChrome]

I don't see either one pulling away, or employing superior skills that are being ignored by staff. One has a better arm, the other seems to have leadership qualities. But, neither can parade those qualities to win the job. It might all come together in the summer, but right now the coaching staff has built the engine(physical attributes), but needs to find a way to make it run. We need a QB folks.

 

[bryanjints]

1 coaching staff chose Laviano. Fans grumbled because the coaches were stubborn and clueless.

Next coaching staff seems to be leaning towards Laviano. Can't wait to hear the comments on this coaching staff's ineptitude all season long.



Here's an eye opener for those of you on #teamRettig. You don't know football nearly as good as you think you might.

 

[Jonb127]

Why is it always "if all else are equal then the better arm or "weapon" in this case should be the deciding factor? You don't think when Ash says it's equal he is factoring that in? If he choses Laviano then it just says that his better arm wasn't enough to make up for the other areas that Laviano is better than him at. You list a bunch of important QB factors, assess that they are all equal because you saw the spring game so of course you now know as much as the coaches and then say we have to go with Rettig because he breaks the tie by being a weapon. The coaches don't seem to see everything else as equal or he would be starting!!

 

[miker183]

I've mentioned this before, but think it bears repeating. The quick outs to Grant were kind of floated, if Laviano takes the job, I just want to see him zip the ball in a bit quicker. Grant can make plays, but it's easier if the defender doesn't arrive at the same time as the ball; or God forbid, if the defender is able to jump the route.

Regarding Saturday's game, I know we didn't set the world on fire offensively, but how nice was it to see the offense be, at least somewhat unpredictable? No run up the gut on 1st and 2nd to set yourself up for 3rd and 6-8 yards for a first.

After watching Saturday's game, I truly wouldn't mind a platoon type system. I know the argument, if you have two number one QBs then you don't have one. And I get it, but maybe that is where we are with the new offense. Maybe we need to get by until the quarterback suited to this offense is on board.

 

[miker183]

I don't see either one pulling away, or employing superior skills that are being ignored by staff. One has a better arm, the other seems to have leadership qualities. But, neither can parade those qualities to win the job. It might all come together in the summer, but right now the coaching staff has built the engine(physical attributes), but needs to find a way to make it run. We need a QB folks.

I don't care if Laviano wins the job, if he does great. But, I'm not enamored by his leadership qualities. Team leaders don't go out drinking, breaking curfew right after being named the starter and right before the first game.

I am NOT ragging on the kid for going drinking, we've probably all done it or worse, but it doesn't send a great message to the teammates. It's just my opinion, but I don't want team leaders that choose themselves over their team. I know I'll probably get torched for this, but that's just how I feel; I always loved Schiano's slogan about 1/11th. You need everyone pulling in the same direction.

 

[eceres]

None of the choices are what our coaches want (dual threat) - so for someone to take it in the spring would of been shocking.

Will be interesting to see how the QB motions look at game time. We saw the QBs fake motion after handoffs - with it being touch they can't really carry it anyway.

Anyone with higher football IQ have an opinion here?

 

[Dpgru]

To the last 4 or 5 posters above - thank you. Common sense approach. Let the coaches decide.

 

[RUMBA-JK]

- it must be remembered that ...
One very blunt reality is - neither Laviano nor Rettig will ever be "the QB" of one of the premier 'Chris Ash led - Rutgers University Legendary Football Teams'
because it is likely that the earliest appearance of a team that is solidly at that level will be in Ash's third year - and Laviano nor Rettig will have moved on with their lives by then.

This is soooooo far from being over! Huge amounts of work will need to be done before a decision will be rendered... but one of the key drivers will be - which QB will make the greatest contribution toward significant & consistent TEAM improvement - moving the team toward being a crisp, precise, consistent, fast paced, mistake free, unified offense.

Right now - with the near-mid-long range vision that Ash has for this team - the role of the QB for this season may be more focused on being the 'metronome' that maintains a steady reliable rhythm & keeps the team on pace & really fosters strong systematic team growth - more than it will be to be the dazzling lead singer in the center of the spotlight.

 

[miketd1]

Here's an eye opener for those of you on #teamRettig. You don't know football nearly as good as you think you might.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I think we're sort of on the same page here: it's more than arm talent.

My prior post alluded to that.

 

[dvb91]

Based on current performances, we don't have a #1 QB currently, nor do I think we'll have a true #1 next season. Neither CL or HR have pulled away from the competition and it would behoove Ash not to stick with a QB if it obviously isn't working. CL's biggest liability was that he was 'anointed' by Flood and all the negative issues that came with it. He might be more consistent & more reliable than HR, but we as fans don't want consistent when it doesn't give us a realistic chance at upsetting a top team. Sure, there was Mich St, but we're closer to them athletically than to OSU. The talent gap cannot be bridged by consistency at QB, unless that QB is consistently great.

Not sure if Ash is willing to give up that consistency, but it seems to me he's more than willing to shuffle his QB's around, which is probably what we all wanted last year.

 

[RUChoppin]

From what I saw in the spring game (up until the last few minutes when the DVR cut out), no QB looked like he had a solid command of the concepts of this offense or was able to overcome that with natural ability.

Laviano and Rettig seemed to be ahead of the pack, though. I know Rescigno only saw time on the White team, but it really looked like he wasn't comfortable back there and struggled to get things going.

Both Laviano and Rettig seemed to be off with their timing, throwing ahead of and behind receivers at different points - especially on longer balls. They were able to hit Grant in the flat and allow him to get yards in space, but I didn't see a QB that I thought "Yes! That's who I want running our offense next year!"

They both have a lot of work to do, and I'm sure Mehringer and Ash are trying to get them to fully grasp the concepts and build comfort within the newly defined role. There's a whole offseason to keep working on their own, and then the summer practices to make a decision.

Whereas last year it was "they're both equally good, and either one could start"... I think the message this year is "they are both equally inconsistent, and neither one has earned the right to be named starter". While again it seems they are both close, that's a very different expectation being set. If it continues, though, up to the first game, it will again lead to fans calling for the coach to put in the "other" QB when the first struggles... not because the second QB is "just as good" but that the first QB is "not ready yet".

Hopefully one of them separates himself before game week at the end of August.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Ash doesn't have enough timeouts in a game to play Rettig.

 

[anvilofstars]

Do not misunderstand me here I am not defending Rettig but I think that Ash decided he wanted to see his fg kicker try a long field goal at the end of the game so they told Rettig to throw for the end zone. If they scored fine, if not, he wanted a long fg attempt so they made no attempt to pick up yardage. As a result Rettig threw what were the equivalent of hail marys at the end of the game? All the DB's were backed up.

lol. The only person you are fooling with this statement is yourself.

 

[srru86]

Both had their moments good and bad. Neither won the job. Stop building cases and let the staff do their job.

 

[miker183]

Ash doesn't have enough timeouts in a game to play Rettig.

You don't need timeouts, if you have to you spike the ball to stop the clock. Unless it's fourth down, in which case, whoops, never mind.

I don't care who starts or plays, I just want the coach to change the QB IF that QB is ineffective.
The name, to me, is completely irrelevant, if a WR develops a case of the "dropsies" should he continue to play simply because he was the starter? Of course not.

I'm only asking that we not be afraid to change up what isn't working. I can't not work MORE, right?

 

[lighty]

They started the spring with an open QB competition. They have been essentially dead even all spring. If he is so much better and has so much more talent as so many of you imply, and Laviano is so bad and only played because Flood wouldn't change then why hasn't he blown Laviano away. As I see it Laviano is not that good and Rettig can't take the job away. How much of an opportunity do you need to win the job from someone who isn't any good at it. Ample enough?

So basically... practice wins out. I'm sorry, but if a player is a tremendous force in practice but doesn't show that same ability in an actual game, I consider making a move -- it could be a temporary move for the rest of one game or a longer move. But there are players who are better in actual game situations than in practice and there are players who excel in practice that cannot handle true game situations.

If Laviano had not struggled -- and no TD passes in like 5-6 games indicates a bit of a struggle to me -- this wouldn't have mattered. But he did struggle. And yet we never saw anybody else take a meaningful snap. Even when Laviano's helmet came off, Flood immediately calls a time out to prevent anyone else from seeing the field and POSSIBLY doing something that would make people question his decision.

So, no. It's not ample enough for me. If Laviano didn't go half the season without leading us into the endzone, it would have been different. I maintain that Rettig never got the opportunity to show what he could do. He played once in the first half -- without our best receiver -- and never got a chance to show his ability with Carroo (without whom Laviano's stats would have been much, much worse).

 

[RU-ROCS]

Bottom line is that both Laviano and Rettig have serious flaws, especially given that they are now both in their junior year. Regardless of who is the starter, it looks like QB will be a position of weakness for RU, which does not bode well for the season.

 

[RUChoppin]

Bottom line is that both Laviano and Rettig have serious flaws, especially given that they are now both in their junior year. Regardless of who is the starter, it looks like QB will be a position of weakness for RU, which does not bode well for the season.

On the flip side, they're both just 4 months (and 15 practices) into a brand new system with a new staff, playbook, and calls (with an OL and receiving corps that's in that same boat). All of their prior college experience has been in a huddling pro set with extra protection (FB, frequently two TEs) and now they're running a no huddle spread (no FB, one TE).

It's going to take time to get fully acclimated. Fully expect some growing pains in the early part of this season - just hoping one of the QBs steps up to separate himself to lessen those growing pains as much as possible.

 

[newell138]

The fact that neither one of them has taken the lead in the QB battle just makes me realize how ineffective they both are. We saw evidence to that w/ Laviano last year. It will be interesting to see if Oden is given a shot when he arrives on campus.

 

[beaced]

Do not misunderstand me here I am not defending Rettig but I think that Ash decided he wanted to see his fg kicker try a long field goal at the end of the game so they told Rettig to throw for the end zone. If they scored fine, if not, he wanted a long fg attempt so they made no attempt to pick up yardage. As a result Rettig threw what were the equivalent of hail marys at the end of the game? All the DB's were backed up

I believe that it was a 49 yarder that Bonagura was Short on.Not a chip shot but one that should have been reached.Accuracy is a different story but not to be able to boot it 49 yds does not make for a dependable kicker. I hope that he improves by first game time.

 

[spawnofsatan]

Odin will give them run for the Starting QB Job?

 

[mildone]

Wow is that a reach. Did you believe that when you were typing it?

If we're talking about the very end of the game, then it seemed pretty clear that the team was attempting what amounted to hail mary passes for the practice of it. Not a reach at all.

 

[Dpgru]

So basically... practice wins out. I'm sorry, but if a player is a tremendous force in practice but doesn't show that same ability in an actual game, I consider making a move -- it could be a temporary move for the rest of one game or a longer move. But there are players who are better in actual game situations than in practice and there are players who excel in practice that cannot handle true game situations.




If Laviano had not struggled -- and no TD passes in like 5-6 games indicates a bit of a struggle to me -- this wouldn't have mattered. But he did struggle. And yet we never saw anybody else take a meaningful snap. Even when Laviano's helmet came off, Flood immediately calls a time out to prevent anyone else from seeing the field and POSSIBLY doing something that would make people question his decision.


So, no. It's not ample enough for me. If Laviano didn't go half the season without leading us into the endzone, it would have been different. I maintain that Rettig never got the opportunity to show what he could do. He played once in the first half -- without our best receiver -- and never got a chance to show his ability with Carroo (without whom Laviano's stats would have been much, much worse).

What does Flood's stupidity in not giving Rettig a chance last year have to do with Rettig not being able to beat out Laviano at practice this spring. If Rettig is that much better than Laviano the 14 practices this spring would have given him AMPLE opportunity to demonstrate that he at least has superior skills. Maybe not ample enough to win the job but certainly ample enough to show he is more skilled than Laviano. Clearly he hasn't even come close to doing even that. They are dead even.

 

[mildone]

The Rettig faithful have officially gone off the deep end.

So because you weren't perceptive enough to see what others saw, they must be Rettig faithful now?

I agree with what @Dpgru observed and I have pretty consistently defended Laviano here - so I'm clearly NOT Rettig faithful. I would also defend Rettig if he were the starting QB because I'm not Laviano faithful either.

 

[Dpgru]

If we're talking about the very end of the game, then it seemed pretty clear that the team was attempting what amounted to hail mary passes for the practice of it. Not a reach at all.

Thank you Mildone. For many of the spectators this was a "game". For Ash this was just another practice and an opportunity to see something or try something. I am not saying that is why they played it out that way I am just suggesting that it could have been Ash's motivation. That's all