The Misconception of “Year 4“

[BillyC80]

First, let me say that I thought we’d be better this year, only because of the 4 freshman, Geo and Carter coming back, plus the addition of Yeboah, Young and Mulcahy.

This idea that Pike’s team should be performing better just because it’s his 4th year here is a bit of a misnomer. Maybe if Eugene had stayed there would be some more truth to it, but otherwise he hasn’t coached one player who has been here for all 4 of his years.

Not one player is on the team this year who played on Pike’s first team here 3 year ago. Not only that, but his best player from each of the previous two years abandoned the team one year early, so he hasn’t gotten the full measure of value from his best player playing through their senior year. If you don’t think that matters then just imagine where SHU would be if Powell hadn’t come back for his senior year.

You could say he should have recruited better, and that’s fair, but the biggest chunk of his recruits were all freshmen last year, so it will take time. I still think we’ll have a decent year, with more wins than last year, and if that’s true then it’s one way of measuring progress, in his 4th year.

 

[sct1111]

This may be true but I'm just not seeing any particular offense being run. There's been a lot of one on one offense. Where are the screens? I think we've been way more talented then any team we've faced this year. I don't think the coaching staff is putting the players in the right positions to be successful so far this year. It might take a little while to figure it out.

 

[essexknight]

“The misconception of year 4” applies to winning games in B1G play. It should not apply to beating an 0-3 SB team at a neutral site. RU should beat SB by double digits, in the same fashion that Ohio and Siena did earlier this year. I don’t think this is an unrealistic expectation for year 4.

 

[Russ Wood]

This may be true but I'm just not seeing any particular offense being run. There's been a lot of one on one offense. Where are the screens? I think we've been way more talented then any team we've faced this year. I don't think the coaching staff is putting the players in the right positions to be successful so far this year. It might take a little while to figure it out.

I didn't see the St. Bonaventure game but in the first three games I saw screens. Mostly high ball screens. Ball handlers went away from the screen about 15 percent of the time. I saw some pin downs, Baker came off a nice stagger screen midway through the second half against Drexel, was open for a catch-and-release jumper but he missed it. Just my .02 cents but I'd like to see RU use stagger or floppy action to get Baker open more often.

I'm not suggesting that it's a screen heavy offense just that I see screens.

Oh and I saw some cross screens on BLOB plays to get a shooter open.

 

[rucoe89]

First, let me say that I thought we’d be better this year, only because of the 4 freshman, Geo and Carter coming back, plus the addition of Yeboah, Young and Mulcahy.

This idea that Pike’s team should be performing better just because it’s his 4th year here is a bit of a misnomer. Maybe if Eugene had stayed there would be some more truth to it, but otherwise he hasn’t coached one player who has been here for all 4 of his years.

Not one player is on the team this year who played on Pike’s first team here 3 year ago. Not only that, but his best player from each of the previous two years abandoned the team one year early, so he hasn’t gotten the full measure of value from his best player playing through their senior year. If you don’t think that matters then just imagine where SHU would be if Powell hadn’t come back for his senior year.

You could say he should have recruited better, and that’s fair, but the biggest chunk of his recruits were all freshmen last year, so it will take time. I still think we’ll have a decent year, with more wins than last year, and if that’s true then it’s one way of measuring progress, in his 4th year.

These are excuses. Pikiell has not developed the team at a rate he should. This loss is on him and his band of underachievers.

 

[BillyC80]

“The misconception of year 4” applies to winning games in B1G play. It should not apply to beating an 0-3 SB team at a neutral site. RU should beat SB by double digits, in the same fashion that Ohio and Siena did earlier this year. I don’t think this is an unrealistic expectation for year 4.

This makes my point. We should expect to beat an 0-3 SB team at a neutral site no matter what year Pike is in.

We would all be just as disappointed if we lost this game last year with Eugene or the year before with Corey. Year 2, year 3 or year 4 makes no difference.

Now what I will say is that the team — this team with these players — is so far this year not shooting as well as I thought they would or defending the three very well.

If we don’t see improvement in those areas by the time we get to regular B1G play then I’ll be more critical of Pike, but not because “it’s his 4th year.”

 

[kcg88]

Here we go with the excuses and the lowering of expectations.

 

[BillyC80]

Here we go with the excuses and the lowering of expectations.

Not making excuses. We should have won this game. The point of my OP is that saying “in year 4” is a bit of a misnomer. That’s all.

 

[blockm2]

This makes my point. We should expect to beat an 0-3 SB team at a neutral site no matter what year Pike is in.

It was an 8.5 pt spread. St. Bonaventure is not some non conference bottom dweller. They are projected to be middle of the pack in the A10 this year.

While you'd like Rutgers to win that game, it's not some massive upset.

I mean I found the preseason predictions on this board of Rutgers being a top half of the Big Ten team and being in contention for an NCAA bid this season to be as hilarious as anybody else may have found them, but that doesn't mean Pikiell doesn't continue to have the program on a slow steady climb. It's a long season. This Rutgers team isn't good enough to act like losing to a KenPom #145 team is some unforgivable sin. I mean St. Bonnie's is way, way better than Fordham was last season.

 

[rufeelinit]

Its getting very close to the time to take the crutches away from Pike and make him walk on his own. The defense is lousy and we still miss too many damn foul shots which are magnified because most nights we don't shoot very well from the field either.

The reality is that he is still on the lower rungs of the ladder towards building a program. While there has been progress up this point, climbing up the ladder each year gets harder and harder. There are some worrisome signs about where this goes this year.

 

[29PAS]

I didn't see the St. Bonaventure game but in the first three games I saw screens. Mostly high ball screens. Ball handlers went away from the screen about 15 percent of the time. I saw some pin downs, Baker came off a nice stagger screen midway through the second half against Drexel, was open for a catch-and-release jumper but he missed it. Just my .02 cents but I'd like to see RU use stagger or floppy action to get Baker open more often.

I'm not suggesting that it's a screen heavy offense just that I see screens.

Oh and I saw some cross screens on BLOB plays to get a shooter open.

Geez Russ, I thought I at least knew a little about basketball but you really exposed me with pin downs, stagger screens, floppy action and BLOB plays! Back to school for me!

 

[Degaz-RU]

This may be true but I'm just not seeing any particular offense being run. There's been a lot of one on one offense. Where are the screens? I think we've been way more talented then any team we've faced this year. I don't think the coaching staff is putting the players in the right positions to be successful so far this year. It might take a little while to figure it out.

Yeah, it really seems like "positionless" basketball means "rudderless and confusing" basketball.

Seriously, though, aside from the shooting woes, it really seems like guys are either confused by their roles or Pike hasn't properly SET their individual roles, and the result is just chaos on offense.

 

[bowlgoal]

Eugene leaving hurt us more than I expected because of his post play. Maybe Yeboah will figure it out but right now, he is just more of a shooter. That’s fine because he can make shots but he struggles when he ends up in the post position.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

This could have been Year 4. I will stand by my opinion, which is VERY debateable, he made a HUGE mistake keeping trying to keep some of the Jordan talent on the team. If he severed ties with an assistant coach he could have started from scratch AND our roster would look totally different. I said it at the time and I still believe it.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Eugene leaving hurt us more than I expected because of his post play. Maybe Yeboah will figure it out but right now, he is just more of a shooter. That’s fine because he can make shots but he struggles when he ends up in the post position.

Eugene leaving wasn't the crusher. Eugene having the knee injuries was the crusher. It is possible leaving was the best thing for the team (assuming he wouldn't be near 75-80%). To me the debateable thing is how good were we really last year without him.

 

[bowlgoal]

This may be true but I'm just not seeing any particular offense being run. There's been a lot of one on one offense. Where are the screens? I think we've been way more talented then any team we've faced this year. I don't think the coaching staff is putting the players in the right positions to be successful so far this year. It might take a little while to figure it out.

Yeah, it really seems like "positionless" basketball means "rudderless and confusing" basketball.

Seriously, though, aside from the shooting woes, it really seems like guys are either confused by their roles or Pike hasn't properly SET their individual roles, and the result is just chaos on offense.

I agree here. We need more defined positions. It’s great that other guys can dribble up court but we need to establish a true point guard to set up the plays. I think Geo is still the best option right now.

 

[bowlgoal]

Eugene leaving hurt us more than I expected because of his post play. Maybe Yeboah will figure it out but right now, he is just more of a shooter. That’s fine because he can make shots but he struggles when he ends up in the post position.

Eugene leaving wasn't the crusher. Eugene having the knee injuries was the crusher. It is possible leaving was the best thing for the team (assuming he wouldn't be near 75-80%). To me the debateable thing is how good were we really last year without him.

Well that’s actually true. Taking this year off but probably a necessity for him whether it was here at Rutgers or redshirting. So maybe it wouldn’t have mattered all that much unless he felt healthy enough to play.

 

[kcg88]

This could have been Year 4. I will stand by my opinion, which is VERY debateable, he made a HUGE mistake keeping trying to keep some of the Jordan talent on the team. If he severed ties with an assistant coach he could have started from scratch AND our roster would look totally different. I said it at the time and I still believe it.

I agree with this. I think now even the coaching staff needs a bit of a shakeup and hiring internally (Hayn) to replace Young did not constitute a shake-up.

EDIT: Have to add that there's a chance that if he totally resets and loses Sanders that it's just scorched Earth at this point and the program is totally dead. He was the guy on all the recruiting pamphlets and such that we went out the first two years under Pikiell. Guys knew who he was, at least.

 

[ru66]

This makes my point. We should expect to beat an 0-3 SB team at a neutral site no matter what year Pike is in.

We would all be just as disappointed if we lost this game last year with Eugene or the year before with Corey. Year 2, year 3 or year 4 makes no difference.

Now what I will say is that the team — this team with these players — is so far this year not shooting as well as I thought they would or defending the three very well.

If we don’t see improvement in those areas by the time we get to regular B1G play then I’ll be more critical of Pike, but not because “it’s his 4th year.”

didn't sound like a neutral site

 

[ImBadRU]

Pike is a good coach. He had an off night on Saturday....very off. Could not believe the time management at the end of the game. The bottom line is he needs to decide on a rotation before B10 play and recruit a four star or two. Bottom line.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I agree with this. I think now even the coaching staff needs a bit of a shakeup and hiring internally (Hayn) to replace Young did not constitute a shake-up.

EDIT: Have to add that there's a chance that if he totally resets and loses Sanders that it's just scorched Earth at this point and the program is totally dead. He was the guy on all the recruiting pamphlets and such that we went out the first two years under Pikiell. Guys knew who he was, at least.

That is the argument. Did he prevent point guards from coming here? It is Year 4 and next year is Year 5 and arguably we don't have a starting point guard.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Could not believe the time management at the end of the game.

shockingly bad

 

[RUJMM78]

First, let me say that I thought we’d be better this year, only because of the 4 freshman, Geo and Carter coming back, plus the addition of Yeboah, Young and Mulcahy.

This idea that Pike’s team should be performing better just because it’s his 4th year here is a bit of a misnomer. Maybe if Eugene had stayed there would be some more truth to it, but otherwise he hasn’t coached one player who has been here for all 4 of his years.

Not one player is on the team this year who played on Pike’s first team here 3 year ago. Not only that, but his best player from each of the previous two years abandoned the team one year early, so he hasn’t gotten the full measure of value from his best player playing through their senior year. If you don’t think that matters then just imagine where SHU would be if Powell hadn’t come back for his senior year.

You could say he should have recruited better, and that’s fair, but the biggest chunk of his recruits were all freshmen last year, so it will take time. I still think we’ll have a decent year, with more wins than last year, and if that’s true then it’s one way of measuring progress, in his 4th year.

More wins than last year isn't good enough A winning season should be the minimal expectation if this basketball program will ever get out of the quagmire of losing seasons.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

More wins than last year isn't good enough A winning season should be the minimal expectation if this basketball program will ever get out of the quagmire of losing seasons.

This is the thinking behind why our basketball program stinks. We keep hitting the reset button.

 

[Groz]

More wins than last year isn't good enough A winning season should be the minimal expectation if this basketball program will ever get out of the quagmire of losing seasons.

This is true. We can't always "keep waiting for next year" all the time. Every other P5 program reloads somehow. Either with transfers that can play right away(or sit out but are meaningful players right away when eligible), junior college stars(which we have tried and failed very badly) or with freshman that can make an impact right away.

Many NEW coaches tear down their team and are able to rebuild right away. I think Louisville had only 3 players on their roster last year that were on the team the year before. Chris Mack comes in, cleans house and is able to put together a pretty good team his first year and a team that is RANKED 2nd in the country today in the polls.

So, you are telling me that it can't be done in a relative short period and it takes years???? Garbage. It is either we have been hiring the wrong coaches or completely getting the wrong types of players!!

Best of Luck,
Groz

 

[kcg88]

This is true. We can't always "keep waiting for next year" all the time. Every other P5 program reloads somehow. Either with transfers that can play right away(or sit out but are meaningful players right away when eligible), junior college stars(which we have tried and failed very badly) or with freshman that can make an impact right away.

Many NEW coaches tear down their team and are able to rebuild right away. I think Louisville had only 3 players on their roster last year that were on the team the year before. Chris Mack comes in, cleans house and is able to put together a pretty good team his first year and a team that is RANKED 2nd in the country today in the polls.

So, you are telling me that it can't be done in a relative short period and it takes years???? Garbage. It is either we have been hiring the wrong coaches or completely getting the wrong types of players!!

Best of Luck,
Groz

I'll co-sign this. Washington State went ten years without a winning season and Tony Bennett took them to the tournament in year one. He's maybe the best coach in the sport but it's illustrative of your point. It doesn't have to take a long time.

 

[goru7]

I agree with this. I think now even the coaching staff needs a bit of a shakeup and hiring internally (Hayn) to replace Young did not constitute a shake-up.

EDIT: Have to add that there's a chance that if he totally resets and loses Sanders that it's just scorched Earth at this point and the program is totally dead. He was the guy on all the recruiting pamphlets and such that we went out the first two years under Pikiell. Guys knew who he was, at least.

The reason he was on all the pamphlets is that he was our most talented player and at least debatable all league player. Corey’s gave it all he had, bought into Pike’s defense and won us a bunch of Big 10 games without a whole lot of help. I find it funny that you guys are burying our players after 4 games. I cannot wait to have this discussion in a month, then two months ,and to hear what you have to say about our real good coach and our players. They have not started great and part of that might be the rotations but I got a funny feeling Pike will figure it out soon.
Those killing Pike for recruiting are clueless how hard it was to combat the negative recruiting against the dumpster fire that was not just losing games but was not competitive in as well. I think all four of are sophomores are going to get a whole lot better than these 4 games have shown. Geo has to take it up a whole notch, become selfish and put up15-25 points per night and become the star because almost every team needs at least 1 star.

 

[bac2therac]

This program won't win at a high level unless its landing a couple of top 100 players.
Are we even trying for top 50 players

 

[78CollegeAve]

This is true. We can't always "keep waiting for next year" all the time. Every other P5 program reloads somehow. Either with transfers that can play right away(or sit out but are meaningful players right away when eligible), junior college stars(which we have tried and failed very badly) or with freshman that can make an impact right away.

Many NEW coaches tear down their team and are able to rebuild right away. I think Louisville had only 3 players on their roster last year that were on the team the year before. Chris Mack comes in, cleans house and is able to put together a pretty good team his first year and a team that is RANKED 2nd in the country today in the polls.

So, you are telling me that it can't be done in a relative short period and it takes years???? Garbage. It is either we have been hiring the wrong coaches or completely getting the wrong types of players!!

Best of Luck,
Groz

Why are people shocked that a head coach and top assistant who were recruiting for Stony Brook for 10 years would have trouble attracting B1G talent to play for a head coach who had coached a year at Wesleyan and then 10 at Stony Brook?

I thought the budget plan that Hobbs hoped would work was for Pikiell to come in and coach up sub-B1G talent for a couple years and hopefully not be embarrassed too often ... and then have better, but not B1G for the most part, talent buy in for the next couple of years and become mostly competitive ... and then start winning ... and then winning would attract legitimate B1G talent. That meant that B1G-level kids would start to sign in the class of 2021 (maybe).

So, the depressing talent on the roster doesn't shock me. But if Bryant and St Bonnie can recruit shooters, why can't Rutgers? And, judging by their other offers, are the two kids in the class of 2020 really much of an upgrade over what Jordan was signing?

 

[urbanecane]

Some of these posts remind me of ash’s 2nd and 3rd year when people acted like it was ridiculous to expect this program to score more than 3 points against Ohio state, Michigan and penn state. If you’re not worried after a loss to an 0-3 A-10 team, your expectations are too low.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

This could have been Year 4. I will stand by my opinion, which is VERY debateable, he made a HUGE mistake keeping trying to keep some of the Jordan talent on the team. If he severed ties with an assistant coach he could have started from scratch AND our roster would look totally different. I said it at the time and I still believe it.

The B1G doesn't allow a "firing of players", where you just don't renew scholarships....Schiano in football will be inheriting the same scenario in football, there will be kids that are perhaps

I'll co-sign this. Washington State went ten years without a winning season and Tony Bennett took them to the tournament in year one. He's maybe the best coach in the sport but it's illustrative of your point. It doesn't have to take a long time.

I could be wrong but I think Klay Thompson was a JUCO recruit with few offers that landed on the Bennett team at Washington State. Not saying Bennett isn't a top 10 coach in all of college hoops, but Thompson was as good of a college shooter as I've seen in decades.

 

[ancienthooper]

These are excuses. Pikiell has not developed the team at a rate he should. This loss is on him and his band of underachievers.

Pikes can certainly take the heat (and couldn't care less), but "band of underachievers" is pretty harsh commentary directed at 18-22 year old kids.

 

[Groz]

The B1G doesn't allow a "firing of players", where you just don't renew scholarships....Schiano in football will be inheriting the same scenario in football, there will be kids that are perhaps


I could be wrong but I think Klay Thompson was a JUCO recruit with few offers that landed on the Bennett team at Washington State. Not saying Bennett isn't a top 10 coach in all of college hoops, but Thompson was as good of a college shooter as I've seen in decades.

Doesn't Nebraska Basketball have only like 2 players that were on the team last year? Guess Fred Hoiberg didn't get the message.....
There is always a way to change your team.

Maybe it doesn't send the right message or sit well with some people, but it definitely can be done somehow. Or, maybe we should just keep following EVERY rule and end up near the bottom of the standings forever. Guess we should ask Urban Meyer or Jim Harbaugh how it is done to get rid of players that are not up to the level you need and don't help you.

Best of Luck,
Groz

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

This could have been Year 4. I will stand by my opinion, which is VERY debateable, he made a HUGE mistake keeping trying to keep some of the Jordan talent on the team. If he severed ties with an assistant coach he could have started from scratch AND our roster would look totally different. I said it at the time and I still believe it.

The B1G doesn't allow a "firing of players", where you just don't renew scholarships....in past years, yes, you can get away with that...

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The B1G doesn't allow a "firing of players", where you just don't renew scholarships....

I know this. Had Rutgers not renewed an assistant coach we most likely would have had the defections I wanted.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

So, you are telling me that it can't be done in a relative short period and it takes years???? Garbage. It is either we have been hiring the wrong coaches or completely getting the wrong types of players!!

Best of Luck,
Groz

What if you have a fan base of 3,000.
You haven’t made it to the NCAA tournament since 1991.
You don’t have a budget to pay coaches
You don’t have the means to pay players

Under those conditions maybe we need to keep what we perceive to be a decent coach and allow him to learn from mistakes, maybe get some guys on senior night that have played 110+ games in a RU uniform. Build long term relationships with HS and AAU coaches.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

It’s hard to say this word when you have been 29 years without a ncaa tournament ...but it needs to be said

Patience