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Thiam and Kiss Production

bac2therac

bac2therac

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Didn't post this in the recap thread because I wanted to go in another direction with that. Here is the problem plain and simple. The coaching staff were counting on these guys as starters to be contributing upwards of 16-20 points combined a game sometimes more, to be legit options on nailing the 3, providing 25 minutes plus a game and playing solid Pikiell defense

There is NO WAY that they could have anticipated them struggling so much where they are sometimes not contributing anything but minutes. I dont want to single these players out but its important to show why the program looks rudderless right now. On a team that has trouble with offense not having your 3rd and 4th option produce matters.

Last 5 games

Thiam......1-17 fg, 1-11 from 3, 7 points...7 POINTS IN 5 GAMES!!!!!!!!

Kiss.....11-37 fg, 3-18 from 3, 30 points.....if he take out the SHU game he is just 5-23 with 14 points

total over this 5 game stretch.....12-54 fg, 4-29 from 3, 37 points

we should be getting 80 points from these guys...to maybe 100 pts in 5 games.

That this is their production is torpedoing things right now. The freshmen were never expected to carry the load yet. It means the staff has to go back to square one and reassess their whole gameplan to the season because its not working.

So then really is it surprising that the team is where it is right now. But is it too late to fix or can it be fixed?
 
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These players have two things in common

No midrange game, especially Thiam
Can't finish at the rim.
 
Very disappointed in Thiam. Thought going into the season he would avg 10 pts and learn to drive and find a floater or inside game to open up his outside shooting. He does not have offensive instincts or the bull in him to find his shot. I still believe he is an average or above average outside defender. He simply plays too pasive. His offensive (or lack thereof) production can not be counted on.

Kiss is neither a high average shooter, capable driver or defender. He is simply not a BIG level player. I think Pike relied too heavily on Kiss coming in and averaging double digits. MD guards are quick, can guard, make smart decisions and stroke it. That is the standard.

Thiam and Kiss need to come off the bench. Either can become hot and score double digits against BIG opponents once and awhile but not consistently.

GO RU
 
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Patience....shooting will return....we’ll win some games and be much better next year. We are not “rudderless”.
 
I never expected much from Kiss, if you remember i said preseason that if he could play 10-12 mins a game and knock down a 3 or two i thought thatd be excellent. Hes just not a big ten player, in particularly athletically. Hes not quick enough and lacks lateral quickness to be a plus defender. He should be play 10-12 spot minutes a night, that is all.

Thiam is just a disaster. I also think people overrate him on the defensive end, he doesnt even use his length there well. Thiam has not hit a field goal in a game since 12/8 vs fordham. Think about that!!!
 
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Thiam is a MAAC level rotation player who until recently was starting on a B1G team. He was getting pushed around quite a bit today. He plays solid D but is one dimensional on offense and has lost that dimension.
 
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Mr Magoo said:
Thiam is a MAAC level rotation player who until recently was starting on a B1G team. He was getting pushed around quite a bit today. He plays solid D but is one dimensional on offense and has lost that dimension.
Click to expand...
Were seeing this year how much corey meant to this team. Guys like Thiam and Ducoure played big minutes last year and because of corey we looked competent. Corey was so good man, damn shame some people here cant see it
 
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Amazing just how badly Pikiell misjudged the abilities of Mensah and Kiss or what’s needed to compete in the B1G instead of America East. Or is it just reality that these two were the best that the staff could come up with for 2 scholarships after the 16-17 season?
 
It's not their fault bac.....these players are scouted and can be stopped with focus by an opponent. Part of a player's career development is never exposed at certain schools, because kids stay within a certain role.

We asked a lot of Thiam in thinking that the player would take the next step. But, the players have to add more to their arsenal to keep up.

The last 2019 recruit and 2020 class has to be a mix of athletic complete players. The reality is RU has to get another piece in 2019.

Mathis with a dunk, Harper with a slick move around the basket are just playmakers outside the structure of the offense. RU is finding complete basketball players and it's tough when your SF or SG is not a shoot, dribble, pass and shoot guy, that can also defend and rebound.

I think Kiss is a better chance at rebounding to help out, but he needs to get other aspects of his game moving. It's not recruiting the highest ranked player that ails RU, it's just not landing a complete basketball player.

Baker, McConnell, Mathis, Harper, Carter, Young and Mulcahy are complete players. Kiss is as well, just needs a confidence boost.

Doorson is very 1 dimensional as a defensive player and rebounder, but not a player we can ask to score inside. Doucoure and Myles will be sophomores next year with 3 years left to become complete players.

Eugene has slowly transformed himself to just becoming that player....Thiam isn't there yet or not sure he's at that level of strength and ability.

The other factor involves how skilled or capable do the bigs we have, develop. People were all over Carter's stat line in JUCO, when it's clear to me, he belongs on the court the most. If you have another upperclassmen inside with some toughness and ball-skills like Carter, you have a chance.
 
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NewJerseyHawk said:
It's not their fault bac.....these players are scouted and can be stopped with focus by an opponent. Part of a player's career development is never exposed at certain schools, because kids stay within a certain role.

We asked a lot of Thiam in thinking that the player would take the next step. But, the players have to add more to their arsenal to keep up.

The last 2019 recruit and 2020 class has to be a mix of athletic complete players. The reality is RU has to get another piece in 2019.

Mathis with a dunk, Harper with a slick move around the basket are just playmakers outside the structure of the offense. RU is finding complete basketball players and it's tough when your SF or SG is not a shoot, dribble, pass and shoot guy, that can also defend and rebound.

I think Kiss is a better chance at rebounding to help out, but he needs to get other aspects of his game moving. It's not recruiting the highest ranked player that ails RU, it's just not landing a complete basketball player.

Baker, McConnell, Mathis, Harper, Carter, Young and Mulcahy are complete players. Kiss is as well, just needs a confidence boost.

Doorson is very 1 dimensional as a defensive player and rebounder, but not a player we can ask to score inside. Doucoure and Myles will be sophomores next year with 3 years left to become complete players.

Eugene has slowly transformed himself to just becoming that player....Thiam isn't there yet or not sure he's at that level of strength and ability.

The other factor involves how skilled or capable do the bigs we have, develop. People were all over Carter's stat line in JUCO, when it's clear to me, he belongs on the court the most. If you have another upperclassmen inside with some toughness and ball-skills like Carter, you have a chance.
Click to expand...
We’ll have 2 slots to fill for the 2019 class. Imo pike will nab one 4-year guy and a grad transfer
 
78CollegeAve said:
Amazing just how badly Pikiell misjudged the abilities of Mensah and Kiss or what’s needed to compete in the B1G instead of America East. Or is it just reality that these two were the best that the staff could come up with for 2 scholarships after the 16-17 season?
Click to expand...
I felt Pike brought in Mensah not so much for his ability on the court to rest Corey 5-10 mins [which never happened] but because he was basically a grown man built like a NFL lb with a mature demeanor from abroad (France) that could provide an example for Corey on how to carry himself and get in his face if need be. Mensah proved not to a be a capable basketball player at this level but Kiss is not even proving to be a dependable knockdown shooter. Pike talked him up a bunch but he’s not laterally quick enough nor does he possess the handle to push ball with top BIG guards and too short to be a front court player in the BIG. He’s definitely athletic and can jump but his saving grace was suppose to be his shooting which is not up to par. Freeman had WTF performances but he could score and rebound more times than not.

GO RU
 
When I posted last season that Thiam just doesn’t belong I was shouted down.

This season he hasn’t improved like I knew he wouldn’t.

We need more talent so Thiam quality players are no longer a part of this program.

Let projects like Thiam become other program’s problem.
 
NewJerseyHawk said:
It's not their fault bac.....these players are scouted and can be stopped with focus by an opponent. Part of a player's career development is never exposed at certain schools, because kids stay within a certain role.

We asked a lot of Thiam in thinking that the player would take the next step. But, the players have to add more to their arsenal to keep up.

The last 2019 recruit and 2020 class has to be a mix of athletic complete players. The reality is RU has to get another piece in 2019.

Mathis with a dunk, Harper with a slick move around the basket are just playmakers outside the structure of the offense. RU is finding complete basketball players and it's tough when your SF or SG is not a shoot, dribble, pass and shoot guy, that can also defend and rebound.

I think Kiss is a better chance at rebounding to help out, but he needs to get other aspects of his game moving. It's not recruiting the highest ranked player that ails RU, it's just not landing a complete basketball player.

Baker, McConnell, Mathis, Harper, Carter, Young and Mulcahy are complete players. Kiss is as well, just needs a confidence boost.

Doorson is very 1 dimensional as a defensive player and rebounder, but not a player we can ask to score inside. Doucoure and Myles will be sophomores next year with 3 years left to become complete players.

Eugene has slowly transformed himself to just becoming that player....Thiam isn't there yet or not sure he's at that level of strength and ability.

The other factor involves how skilled or capable do the bigs we have, develop. People were all over Carter's stat line in JUCO, when it's clear to me, he belongs on the court the most. If you have another upperclassmen inside with some toughness and ball-skills like Carter, you have a chance.
Click to expand...
Thinking the same with Kiss. Pikiel needsto tell him if he was wants pt he has to grab some boards. No questions. Rock with McConnel, Baker, Mathis, EO, and Johnson. First off bench RHJ and Carter. Make everyone else earn their minutes and set expectations for them.
 
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NewJerseyHawk said:
It's not their fault bac.....these players are scouted and can be stopped with focus by an opponent. Part of a player's career development is never exposed at certain schools, because kids stay within a certain role.

We asked a lot of Thiam in thinking that the player would take the next step. But, the players have to add more to their arsenal to keep up.

The last 2019 recruit and 2020 class has to be a mix of athletic complete players. The reality is RU has to get another piece in 2019.

Mathis with a dunk, Harper with a slick move around the basket are just playmakers outside the structure of the offense. RU is finding complete basketball players and it's tough when your SF or SG is not a shoot, dribble, pass and shoot guy, that can also defend and rebound.

I think Kiss is a better chance at rebounding to help out, but he needs to get other aspects of his game moving. It's not recruiting the highest ranked player that ails RU, it's just not landing a complete basketball player.

Baker, McConnell, Mathis, Harper, Carter, Young and Mulcahy are complete players. Kiss is as well, just needs a confidence boost.

Doorson is very 1 dimensional as a defensive player and rebounder, but not a player we can ask to score inside. Doucoure and Myles will be sophomores next year with 3 years left to become complete players.

Eugene has slowly transformed himself to just becoming that player....Thiam isn't there yet or not sure he's at that level of strength and ability.

The other factor involves how skilled or capable do the bigs we have, develop. People were all over Carter's stat line in JUCO, when it's clear to me, he belongs on the court the most. If you have another upperclassmen inside with some toughness and ball-skills like Carter, you have a chance.
Click to expand...


The Bigs play time should be 1. Carter, 2. Johnson and 3. Doorson, and yet somehow we have that reversed. This is not only because that’s what’s deserved but also to build towards next season. I think Pikiel May have put himself in a corner by making Doorson a captain.
 
bac2therac said:
Didn't post this in the recap thread because I wanted to go in another direction with that. Here is the problem plain and simple. The coaching staff were counting on these guys as starters to be contributing upwards of 16-20 points combined a game sometimes more, to be legit options on nailing the 3, providing 25 minutes plus a game and playing solid Pikiell defense

There is NO WAY that they could have anticipated them struggling so much where they are sometimes not contributing anything but minutes. I dont want to single these players out but its important to show why the program looks rudderless right now. On a team that has trouble with offense not having your 3rd and 4th option produce matters.

Last 5 games

Thiam......1-17 fg, 1-11 from 3, 7 points...7 POINTS IN 5 GAMES!!!!!!!!

Kiss.....11-37 fg, 3-18 from 3, 30 points.....if he take out the SHU game he is just 5-23 with 14 points

total over this 5 game stretch.....12-54 fg, 4-29 from 3, 37 points

we should be getting 80 points from these guys...to maybe 100 pts in 5 games.

That this is their production is torpedoing things right now. The freshmen were never expected to carry the load yet. It means the staff has to go back to square one and reassess their whole gameplan to the season because its not working.

So then really is it surprising that the team is where it is right now. But is it too late to fix or can it be fixed?
Click to expand...
Our offense isn't putting kids in position where they can utilize their talents. For example post up Kiss and Harper. Also, and I've said this before, teams with limited talent have to run a more structured offense looking for specific players, plus there is no evidence of individual offensive fundamentals out there. When is Geo going to go strong to the basket. When are our inside guys going to face up. I haven't seen a jump stop all year. Teams with limited offensive ability have to do all of the little things. We do not do them.
 
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The real question is this:. Are these players in a shooting slump or are they just bad shooters? The evidence is starting to look like latter is the case.

The other problem is an overall lack of fundamentals and skill. Structured offenses don't help teams with players who can't master offensive basics. You can't paper over a lack of offensive talent with X's and O's. Structure only works where there are players with skills.
 
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With Kiss:

- He didn't play with swagger; attitude today. Normally he's a bit vocal; animated on the court and he was none of this today. I think he needs to emulate a lot of what Mathis is doing and his game. I also sense and this is just an observation by me (no one has said anything) that I sense some friction between Kiss and his teammates especially with Eugene as Eugene doesn't pass to Kiss often.

With Thiam: Kid is lost out there. We needed elevation of his game and he has been a disaster. Take the damn ball to the hoop.
 
BigEastPhil said:
With Kiss:

- He didn't play with swagger; attitude today. Normally he's a bit vocal; animated on the court and he was none of this today. I think he needs to emulate a lot of what Mathis is doing and his game. I also sense and this is just an observation by me (no one has said anything) that I sense some friction between Kiss and his teammates especially with Eugene as Eugene doesn't pass to Kiss often.

With Thiam: Kid is lost out there. We needed elevation of his game and he has been a disaster. Take the damn ball to the hoop.
Click to expand...
The team overall is very close so i dint think theres anything going on like that. Eugene has been pushing his opportunities all year.
 
BigEastPhil said:
With Kiss:

With Thiam: Kid is lost out there. We needed elevation of his game and he has been a disaster. Take the damn ball to the hoop.
Click to expand...

He is not capable of taking the ball to the hoop. He cannot handle the ball.
 
bethlehemfan said:
Kiss is not a complete player. He has no handle. Huge problem.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't limit the definition of a complete player to just Kiss.Right no there isn't one go to scorer on the team as shown by watching recent games.The performance of too many players is regressing as the difficult part of the schedule is just beginning.Can't score ,can't win even in front of sellout crowds.
 
The odd thing about Kiss is that he has the highest vertical leap on the team but does not utilize it when he shoots or to crash the boards for rebounds.

In fact his outside shot seems more like a quick release on the way up, almost a set shot, versus elevating and shooting at the top of his jump.
 
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Kiss has lost all confidence. You have got to want the ball and want to shoot it because you are confident.

He does not even seem to want the ball anymore and this is affecting Geos performance.

In the first few games Kiss seemed to be a legitimate 3 point threat and that opened Geo up.

These players are missing wide open threes. Thiam, Kiss and Baker all shot horrendously in the same game which is statistically almost impossible.
 
RUChow said:
Our offense isn't putting kids in position where they can utilize their talents. For example post up Kiss and Harper. Also, and I've said this before, teams with limited talent have to run a more structured offense looking for specific players, plus there is no evidence of individual offensive fundamentals out there. When is Geo going to go strong to the basket. When are our inside guys going to face up. I haven't seen a jump stop all year. Teams with limited offensive ability have to do all of the little things. We do not do them.
Click to expand...

What makes you think all of a sudden they have post up games?
 
78CollegeAve said:
Amazing just how badly Pikiell misjudged the abilities of Mensah and Kiss or what’s needed to compete in the B1G instead of America East. Or is it just reality that these two were the best that the staff could come up with for 2 scholarships after the 16-17 season?
Click to expand...
Yet Kiss was able to score 36 points against SHU and Gonzaga two years ago when he had lesser ability and little experience - interesting.
 
MORRISCOUNTY said:
Kiss has lost all confidence. You have got to want the ball and want to shoot it because you are confident.

He does not even seem to want the ball anymore and this is affecting Geos performance.

In the first few games Kiss seemed to be a legitimate 3 point threat and that opened Geo up.

These players are missing wide open threes. Thiam, Kiss and Baker all shot horrendously in the same game which is statistically almost impossible.
Click to expand...
We've been getting very few wide open and uncontested threes, and the ones we have been getting are well beyond the three point line.
 
RUChow said:
YOU HAVE TO TEACH POST UP MOVES. This is clearly not being done, and Harper is a very good post player. I've seen it.
Click to expand...

If you are trying to make your guard a post up guy as well as your small forward, because they can’t be productive in roles you need them to be, that’s an indictment on them as well as the team.
 
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RUChow said:
We've been getting very few wide open and uncontested threes, and the ones we have been getting are well beyond the three point line.
Click to expand...

That’s inaccurate. We just miss them all so they look contested. We can’t shoot. It’s so obvious.
 
RUChow said:
Yet Kiss was able to score 36 points against SHU and Gonzaga two years ago when he had lesser ability and little experience - interesting.
Click to expand...

He’s the kind of player that scores a lot in garbage time.
 
Caliknight said:
If you are trying to make your guard a post up guy as well as your small forward, because they can’t be productive in roles you need them to be, that’s an indictment on them as well as the team.
Click to expand...
The bigger indictment is that post moves aren't being taught to the players who need to learn them. That indictment goes back three decades.
 
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