Time to zag: No significant defensive presence at center

[NickRU714]

The market appears to be extremely overvalued.
And Rutgers isn't in the over valuing business.

HC Pike needs to adapt and build a team that isn't reliant on a significant defensive center.

He tried last year and got shut out.
Is this year likely to be different?

If not, he cant just throw up his hands and say "oh well we tried".
He also cant allocate most of our (limited) resources and neglect the rest of the team.

Allocate resources to where the most value is.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I will go all in on this.

We will fail if we pay for a center.

 

[ImBadRU]

Get tall guards instead who can press

 

[cRURah]

Next season is destined to be a clusterf&&k no matter what we do. save most of the nil for 2026 and have a chance to field a decent team in 2 years.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I will go all in on this.

We will fail if we pay for a center.

What about Ogbole? If your right, we probably can’t afford to keep him either, no? Unless his injury makes him less attractive but it was just meniscus and it’s probably a net plus for him that he toughed it out and tried to come back.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

What about Ogbole? If your right, we probably can’t afford to keep him either, no? Unless his injury makes him less attractive but it was just meniscus and it’s probably a net plus for him that he toughed it out and tried to come back.

I said he is the most inportant player for us to retain. Having said that i can spend more than 10-15% of my budget on him

 

[Mholinko]

The market appears to be extremely overvalued.
And Rutgers isn't in the over valuing business.

HC Pike needs to adapt and build a team that isn't reliant on a significant defensive center.

He tried last year and got shut out.
Is this year likely to be different?

If not, he cant just throw up his hands and say "oh well we tried".
He also cant allocate most of our (limited) resources and neglect the rest of the team.

Allocate resources to where the most value is.

Spend money on 3 REALLY good guards and roll the dice with dortch and grant as lengthy front court players and play a bob Huggins PRESS VIRGINIA or old school Shaka smart HAVOC style that spreads the game out and makes teams less of an advantage on the glass

Get some front court depth sure but I think the only path to success is to go a route similar to this defensively because spending 1.5-2mill on a good center just isn’t in our budget and wouldn’t do us any good when we have no capable players around them

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I said he is the most inportant player for us to retain. Having said that i can spend more than 10-15% of my budget on him

So your assuming we have to pay a minumum of 400K to Ogbole to keep him at Rutgers?

 

[RutgersClassof2004]

So your assuming we have to pay a minumum of 400K to Ogbole to keep him at Rutgers?

Ogbole coughs up the ball every time he touches it. Whenever he got in last year, everyone was begging for Pike to take him out.

 

[seansherm]

NO. Have we not learned Pike needs a defensive presence at center for his defense to work? His defense is helter skelter, lots of switching. Lanes to the rim open up. We must spend on a center if the team is even to be decent. We have no above average rebounders right now, except EO, and as much as I led his fan club on last years team, you need someone better than him.

 

[seansherm]

Ogbole coughs up the ball every time he touches it. Whenever he got in last year, everyone was begging for Pike to take him out.

You try to shoot through two defenders everytime you touch it

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

NO. Have we not learned Pike needs a defensive presence at center for his defense to work? His defense is helter skelter, lots of switching. Lanes to the rim open up. We must spend on a center if the team is even to be decent. We have no above average rebounders right now, except EO, and as much as I led his fan club on last years team, you need someone better than him.

Do we have any idea what Ogbole costs? I don’t want to pay $1M to Lathan but I don’t think Ogbole is worth say 600k either. He’s never logged more than 13 mpg a season.

 

[goru7]

The market appears to be extremely overvalued.
And Rutgers isn't in the over valuing business.

HC Pike needs to adapt and build a team that isn't reliant on a significant defensive center.

He tried last year and got shut out.
Is this year likely to be different?

If not, he cant just throw up his hands and say "oh well we tried".
He also cant allocate most of our (limited) resources and neglect the rest of the team.

Allocate resources to where the most value is.

Absolutely have a get a rim protector even if his offense is behind his defense. That is a must.
Put Pike needs much more. Needs at least 2 guards , scorers who are also 2 way players that play defense. Also a must. Failure to obtain all 3 put us behind the eight ball to start the year.

 

[seansherm]

Do we have any idea what Ogbole costs?

I haven't the slightest idea, but in my fake roster build had $400 K for the back up center I think, and $100K for spots 11-13. My guess is somewhere between those two?

 

[goru7]

Do we have any idea what Ogbole costs? I don’t want to pay $1M to Lathan but I don’t think Ogbole is worth say 600k either. He’s never logged more than 13 mpg a season.

Ogbole is worth $100,000 if that much. Not retaining and paying Lathan will hurt us in the short and long term. We have no offense coming back as of now.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I haven't the slightest idea, but in my fake roster build had $400 K for the back up center I think, and $100K for spots 11-13. My guess is somewhere between those two?

We’re not getting a better “back up” center than Ogbole and he’s likely the cheapest “back up” we can reasonably expect to get too. I’m not certain of much but that much seems like a near guarantee. Remember - technically we have a third string already in Ware too.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Ogbole is worth $100,000 if that much. Not retaining and paying Lathan will hurt us in the short and long term. We have no offense coming back as of now.

That would be great, but I highly doubt it. Seems like everyone taller than 6-9 makes a ton. Washington overpaid for Lathan. They already have a starting center - a 6th year veteran. But they have money to burn which makes it easy. We don’t.

 

[seansherm]

Ogbole is worth $100,000 if that much. Not retaining and paying Lathan will hurt us in the short and long term. We have no offense coming back as of now.

Yeah, not sure on that. If Lathan and his 15.6 / 7.8 per 40 and no defense are worth $1M, EO and his 9.3 / 11.3 per 40 with slightly better D is going to get more than $100K

 

[goru7]

That would be great, but I highly doubt it. Seems like everyone taller than 6-9 makes a ton. Washington overpaid for Lathan. They already have a starting center - a 6th year veteran. But they have money to burn which makes it easy. We don’t.

All good teams have at least 2 and some have 3 centers. That is what we need . Losing Lathan means we have Ogbole and Ware and not sure but neither is a rim protector. We need one who hopefully can give you something on the offensive end.

 

[seansherm]

We’re not getting a better “back up” center than Ogbole and he’s likely the cheapest “back up” we can reasonably expect to get too. I’m not certain of much but that much seems like a near guarantee. Remember - technically we have a third string already in Ware too.

Yeah, that's why I'm hoping EO is between my back up figure and bench guy. Ware sounds like he should be on the Dortch plan, not sure we see much of him early.

 

[goru7]

Yeah, not sure on that. If Lathan and his 15.6 / 7.8 per 40 and no defense are worth $1M, EO and his 9.3 / 11.3 per 40 with slightly better D is going to get more than $100K

Manny has not played meaningful minutes in 2 years. His defense is not very good either and he fouls a lot and he is not a rim protector . How you can even put him on par with Lathan is laughable. We need another center rim protector that can hit a drop step for a bucket.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

All good teams have at least 2 and some have 3 centers. That is what we need . Losing Lathan means we have Ogbole and Ware and not sure but neither is a rim protector. We need one who hopefully can give you something on the offensive end.

Lathan isn’t a rim protector either. I also don’t think all teams will have 2-3 legit centers anymore. Unless your right that the utility guys still go for 5 figures only the blue bloods and teams known to have major donor funds will pay the price tag associated with bench guys. We’re not paying hundreds of thousands to a 3rd string center. No way.

I think you are stuck in the pre-NIL era. I truly hope Green is overestimating the cost of a back up but there’s no way Ogbole doesn’t make 6 figures somewhere based on his size alone.

 

[seansherm]

Manny has not played meaningful minutes in 2 years. His defense is not very good either and he fouls a lot and he is not a rim protector . How you can even put him on par with Lathan is laughable. We need another center rim protector that can hit a drop step for a bucket.

Pretty much every metric out there puts EO at about 75% of the player Lathan was this past year, yet you think he's worth 10% what Lathan got. EO's TS% was the same, his rebounding % 5 pts higher, his block rate higher turnover % similar.

 

[goru7]

Pretty much every metric out there puts EO at about 75% of the player Lathan was this past year, yet you think he's worth 10% what Lathan got. EO's TS% was the same, his rebounding % 5 pts higher, his block rate higher turnover % similar.

How about impact on the floor? Last 10 games , do you think Lathan was impactful? Did he not improve across the board ? Was his offense steady and important ? Did Manny ever do anything impactful this year before or after he was hurt ? Anybody that watched Rutgers and was not attached to this program or these boards , thought Somerville could play and was a part of Rutgers success in their wins.

 

[goru7]

Lathan isn’t a rim protector either. I also don’t think all teams will have 2-3 legit centers anymore. Unless your right that the utility guys still go for 5 figures only the blue bloods and teams known to have major donor funds will pay the price tag associated with bench guys. We’re not paying hundreds of thousands to a 3rd string center. No way.

I think you are stuck in the pre-NIL era. I truly hope Green is overestimating the cost of a back up but there’s no way Ogbole doesn’t make 6 figures somewhere based on his size alone.

I am stuck in reality. Today , you have to score to win besides play defense. The 2 best defensive teams in the country z Houston and Tennessee , who are outstanding on the defensive end , realized they could not win without offense and that is why they recruited or got portal guys for offense. Uzan and Cryer for Houston give them offense that alllows them to win games with offense not just defense which is always steady and good for them. Lanier and Ziegler and Gainey were offensive weapons that put them over the top to winning most of their games.
You are the guy that is lost and thinks you can only win with defense. Not happening today. Evidence right in front of you this year

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I am stuck in reality. Today , you have to score to win besides play defense. The 2 best defensive teams in the country z Houston and Tennessee , who are outstanding on the defensive end , realized they could not win without offense and that is why they recruited or got portal guys for offense. Uzan and Cryer for Houston give them offense that alllows them to win games with offense not just defense which is always steady and good for them. Lanier and Ziegler and Gainey were offensive weapons that put them over the top to winning most of their games.
You are the guy that is lost and thinks you can only win with defense. Not happening today. Evidence right in front of you this year

Huh? Are you really that dense? I am talking about the market, not what I think or want. This is like when you said I was making it up that Lathan asked for 7 figures except I was simply pointing out that Richie had literally reported it the day before in a podcast which was the truth.

In this case - I stated outright that I have no idea what the market is for a back up big man but I think your probably off in your assumption that he (or really anyone with any D1 experience as a true center) costs under 6 figures. Green thinks a guy like Shaq Doorson would cost us 800k+. You seem to think guys like this are available to us for next to nothing as a 2nd or even 3rd piece. Hopefully Green’s view of how inflated the market is, is inflated, but something tells me it’s closer to reality than your view.

 

[mikeyo]

Ultimately, if you dont defend the interior, you will lose. That's why MSU had no shot against Auburn

 

[ruman]

Next season is destined to be a clusterf&&k no matter what we do. save most of the nil for 2026 and have a chance to field a decent team in 2 years.

That would likely be for a new coach

 

[NickRU714]

NO. Have we not learned Pike needs a defensive presence at center for his defense to work? His defense is helter skelter, lots of switching. Lanes to the rim open up. We must spend on a center if the team is even to be decent. We have no above average rebounders right now, except EO, and as much as I led his fan club on last years team, you need someone better than him.

Well Pike needs to adapt his defense then.
Overpaying for a center is going to make every other spot worse.

Let's reduce it down to laughably simplistic terms (it's dumb but humor me).
Scale 1 - 10 on talent.

Not all talent is equal in terms of cost.
It sounds like you have overpay a level 6 center like they are a level 9 center.
It would be smarter to pay a level 8 wing as a level 8.

It's about operating with limited funds to fill multiple slots.

What's the point of buying a Lexus if it means you can't pay for gas and oil changes.
Buy a Honda Civic and keep it maintained.


God none of that makes sense.
Just ignore the whole post haha

 

[goru7]

Huh? Are you really that dense? I am talking about the market, not what I think or want. This is like when you said I was making it up that Lathan asked for 7 figures except I was simply pointing out that Richie had literally reported it the day before in a podcast which was the truth.

In this case - I stated outright that I have no idea what the market is for a back up big man but I think your probably off in your assumption that he (or really anyone with any D1 experience as a true center) costs under 6 figures. Green thinks a guy like Shaq Doorson would cost us 800k+. You seem to think guys like this are available to us for next to nothing as a 2nd or even 3rd piece. Hopefully Green’s view of how inflated the market is, is inflated, but something tells me it’s closer to reality than your view.

I never said you were making it up about what Lathan wanted, as he is asking what the market is offering. You are the delusional one. Manny is no where close to $800,000 or even $400,000. He is likely getting $100,000 and Pike for loyalty might throw him a bone for another $100,0 00. If he was in the portal that would be his market value. Now sure what consistent positive basketball traits he is bringing to the table for a winning team.

 

[miketd1]

Moneyball solution is to run a Princeton offense. Marry it to a ‘Cuse 2-3 zone that doesn’t require primo athletes and instead relies on length and positioning.

 

[seansherm]

How about impact on the floor? Last 10 games , do you think Lathan was impactful? Did he not improve across the board ? Was his offense steady and important ? Did Manny ever do anything impactful this year before or after he was hurt ? Anybody that watched Rutgers and was not attached to this program or these boards , thought Somerville could play and was a part of Rutgers success in their wins.

We were under .500 in the last ten, so no I don't think he was impactful. We were outscored by 33 when he was on the court the last ten, that was only -7 for Ace and -12 for Dylan. His defensive rebounding #s were in the bottom 1/3rd of the country in that time. His 10 points a game were largely irrelevant.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I never said you were making it up about what Lathan wanted, as he is asking what the market is offering. You are the delusional one. Manny is no where close to $800,000 or even $400,000. He is likely getting $100,000 and Pike for loyalty might throw him a bone for another $100,0 00. If he was in the portal that would be his market value. Now sure what consistent positive basketball traits he is bringing to the table for a winning team.

Actually, yes you did. You suggested I was confusing it with what you referred to as “rumors” about the threats he gave Pike last year if we were to bring in another big.

 

[seansherm]

Well Pike needs to adapt his defense then.
Overpaying for a center is going to make every other spot worse.

Let's reduce it down to laughably simplistic terms (it's dumb but humor me).
Scale 1 - 10 on talent.

Not all talent is equal in terms of cost.
It sounds like you have overpay a level 6 center like they are a level 9 center.
It would be smarter to pay a level 8 wing as a level 8.

It's about operating with limited funds to fill multiple slots.

What's the point of buying a Lexus if it means you can't pay for gas and oil changes.
Buy a Honda Civic and keep it maintained.


God none of that makes sense.
Just ignore the whole post haha

Haha, I'm pickin up what you're putting down though. I just think that even paying level 9 $ for a level 6 center is better than having a level 3 center as your starter. We still need that wing too, but I think it's more likely you can get lucky with a wing since there are so many more of them. The whole team has to be a Honda in your scenario, not just the body, but you put a Peugeot in the engine. I have no idea if a Peugeot is good or not, so read that as you may.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

We were under .500 in the last ten, so no I don't think he was impactful. We were outscored by 33 when he was on the court the last ten, that was only -7 for Ace and -12 for Dylan. His defensive rebounding #s were in the bottom 1/3rd of the country in that time. His 10 points a game were largely irrelevant.

Yeah - this. My feeling is at the center position specifically, it’s easier to make up for offensive deficiencies than defensive ones. The reverse is true for guards where having one that can’t shoot or penetrate really limits an offense. It’s nice to have a center with post moves like Lathan had but not necessary. Plenty of competent offenses have centers who mostly score from garbage put backs under the basket.

If your center is bad past a point on D, your better off going with no center and playing a different style. I don’t think Lathan fits with what that style would be though - if you go that route - you want a pair of tough, athletic forwards - which he’s not. Thats why he’s not worth 25% of our entire budget.

 

[RUJMM78]

So your assuming we have to pay a minumum of 400K to Ogbole to keep him at Rutgers?

If true,that is insane.

 

[goru7]

Actually, yes you did. You suggested I was confusing it with what you referred to as “rumors” about the threats he gave Pike last year if we were to bring in another big.

No. You kept on repeating the rumors that Lathan threatened Pike if he signed someone this year , he would walk , which is ridiculous . Then you switched what was discussed and brought up value this year if Kathan went in the portal. As I told you then and will tell you again , keep your facts and arguments straight.

 

[goru7]

If true,that is insane.

Not happening

Yeah - this. My feeling is at the center position specifically, it’s easier to make up for offensive deficiencies than defensive ones. The reverse is true for guards where having one that can’t shoot or penetrate really limits an offense. It’s nice to have a center with post moves like Lathan had but not necessary. Plenty of competent offenses have centers who mostly score from garbage put backs under the basket.

If your center is bad past a point on D, you’re better off going with no center and playing a different style. I don’t think Lathan fits with what that style would be though - if you go that route - you want a pair of tough, athletic forwards - which he’s not. Thats why he’s not worth 25% of our entire budget.

Maybe when teams are in a slump and not hitting from outside they need a bucket from a big . Lathan will give you that just like Kaufman Renn or Vlad Goldin did numerous times when their team’s threes were not falling. Your thoughts on offensive basketball are mind boggling if you think centers can only get points on putbacks .

 

[goru7]

We were under .500 in the last ten, so no I don't think he was impactful. We were outscored by 33 when he was on the court the last ten, that was only -7 for Ace and -12 for Dylan. His defensive rebounding #s were in the bottom 1/3rd of the country in that time. His 10 points a game were largely irrelevant.

Typical cherry picking. We were 4-6 and should have been 6-4. The 2 losses were to USC in double overtime we should have won in regulation and at the end of the first overtime. Lathan was 6-11 against USC , 0-0 from 3, 4-5 from the line , 5 rebounds and 16 points. He clearly was impactful and it hound have led to a W.
Against Michigan , Lathan was 5-10, 0-0 from 3 , 7-7 from the line , 3 rebounds and 17 points. Again , very impactful. Missed a mid range shot down the stretch that might have given us a cushion and we lost on a buzzer beater that Michigan had no right winning.
Hard to undo what actually happened but you always do your best. If you don’t think he was impactful in those games then maybe you better watch a different sport.

 

[seansherm]

Typical cherry picking. We were 4-6 and should have been 6-4. The 2 losses were to USC in double overtime we should have won in regulation and at the end of the first overtime. Lathan was 6-11 against USC , 0-0 from 3, 4-5 from the line , 5 rebounds and 16 points. He clearly was impactful and it hound have led to a W.
Against Michigan , Lathan was 5-10, 0-0 from 3 , 7-7 from the line , 3 rebounds and 17 points. Again , very impactful. Missed a mid range shot down the stretch that might have given us a cushion and we lost on a buzzer beater that Michigan had no right winning.
Hard to undo what actually happened but you always do your best. If you don’t think he was impactful in those games then maybe you better watch a different sport.

He scores some points, mostly on his free throws, and that is of some value. Giving up just as many negates that value. 3 rebound games out of my big don't impress me.

I agree with you it is nice to be able to dump it down for a basket, but Lathan really isn't big enough as a center. TKR played most of his time w a bigger guy on the court, believe Furst and the other kid each played like 18 a game.

I am changing my mind a bit, think Lathan may be better as an old school 4 next to a real center w defensive and rebounding skill, his lack of D may be better then. Remember, no matter what I'm saying about his freshman year, I did want Lathan back. Don't think you can give him 1/4 of your budget though.

Also, I didn't cherry pick, you picked the ten game sample.