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What keeps this team from winning games? What change do you want to 215,216

higgins3

higgins3

All American
Dec 15, 2012
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After looking at the year as a whole, i think turnovers kill us most. A lot of people will say scoring, but you have to have possession to score the ball. Less turnovers=more possession=more capability to score.

I think over the year Eddie Jordan has to get this team to pass more. More passing=less turnovers=more offensive possessions. So many times this year i saw Daniels try to from mid opponents back court to get over the half way mark. That is something that has to be corrected. A pass helps your player, it makes things easier. I don't mind a pass that gets muffed and ends up in a turnover if the pass and look was good, but dribbling out of the backcourt is a recipe for disaster.

There was one play this year where Jack tried to bring the ball up, tried to sprint the whole floor and ended up turning it over. Mack was so mad at him. The ball should in most situations be brought across the court by the pg. Jack leads the team in turnovers i believe,too. Great offensive work and on the boards, but can be mighty sloppy with the ball. Obviously still a lot of respect for Jack, i am just saying.

We have to keep possession so we can make offensive possessions. Right now we turn the ball over the 3rd most in the big and also pass the ball the third least. Change up those two factors and you have better basketball. Pass more-less turnovers.

Sorry for all the equal signs, i know it's only 12 o clock and i haven't had a cup of coffee yet so i struggled to do the math,too.
 
I guess some would say that was coaching--it seems to me we are so lacking in talent that Eddie has simplified things on the offense to try to make up for the lack of talent and smarts which has helped and hurt. In the end, we have two senior leaders, one who is undersized and one who has a very low basketball IQ. We don't have any shooters (other teams have multiple guys who consistently hit open threes; we have none) and Jack is our only low post presence. And we don't finish under the basket. I love Greg Lewis defense but on offense he's a 6'9" guy who plays like he's 6'4"--no hops, no low post moves. Doorson is raw, DJ gets to the basket and then shakes the ball like it's a hot potato before throwing it in the general direction of the rim. And Jack is just about the worst passer out of double team that I've ever seen. So where is our offensive strength? No shooters, very little talent in the low post = a team that can't score. If you're going to rely on passing to get layups or not score, it's usually going to be a long night.

EJ has very little to work with this year. Hard not to give up and look to the future and hope Sanders and crew bring some size and raw talent to blend with what he's brought in this year to at least gives us hope.

I will say that Jack has been a consistent problem--first under Rice he couldn't grasp where he was supposed to be on offense; more recently, he can't seem to grasp his responsibilities on defense. Moving forward, we need all of our players to understand our offensive and defensive concepts. I think DJ, Doorson, Williams, and even Daniels get it so that's a sign of hope.
 
A complete lack of talent.
IMO Mack and Jack are overrated and I don't see one other quality player on this team.
I don't see how next year won't be even more brutal.
 
What Patrick said..

we can't shoot from the outside and we have guys with limited offensive games
 
I guess some would say that was coaching--it seems to me we are so lacking in talent that Eddie has simplified things on the offense to try to make up for the lack of talent and smarts which has helped and hurt. In the end, we have two senior leaders, one who is undersized and one who has a very low basketball IQ. We don't have any shooters (other teams have multiple guys who consistently hit open threes; we have none) and Jack is our only low post presence. And we don't finish under the basket. I love Greg Lewis defense but on offense he's a 6'9" guy who plays like he's 6'4"--no hops, no low post moves. Doorson is raw, DJ gets to the basket and then shakes the ball like it's a hot potato before throwing it in the general direction of the rim. And Jack is just about the worst passer out of double team that I've ever seen. So where is our offensive strength? No shooters, very little talent in the low post = a team that can't score. If you're going to rely on passing to get layups or not score, it's usually going to be a long night.

EJ has very little to work with this year. Hard not to give up and look to the future and hope Sanders and crew bring some size and raw talent to blend with what he's brought in this year to at least gives us hope.

I will say that Jack has been a consistent problem--first under Rice he couldn't grasp where he was supposed to be on offense; more recently, he can't seem to grasp his responsibilities on defense. Moving forward, we need all of our players to understand our offensive and defensive concepts. I think DJ, Doorson, Williams, and even Daniels get it so that's a sign of hope.




Thanks for post,motel. I too get frustrated seeing the team miss so many shots under the basket. I think more passing=less turnovers, which would help us score. We cannot score/shoot the basketball if we turn it over like we have been. Some games we had 15-25 turnovers.

People think without Mack or Jack we will have a huge problem. They've helped us tremendously, but still have players who can ball next year. We'll have a working bench. I would like to see more balance in the recruiting field. Mix athleticism, with high iq,etc.

I hope we see Mike Williams the shooter next year. I think it has to happen. This will help. I think well have more than 2 options next year. Sad, but ill be honest. If you double teamed Mack or Jack this season you would have a good chance to win the game. Jacks turnovers are just too much. It had to be an easy game plan. Nonetheless, I love this years team. 8/10 games they have always competed. I've seen more heart than years previous. Doesn't always translate to wins, but it's good to see.
 
A complete lack of talent.
IMO Mack and Jack are overrated and I don't see one other quality player on this team.
I don't see how next year won't be even more brutal.-kbee

I hear you. I see a bigger guard next year who can take most off the dribble. If they are overrated, it shouldn't be so scary. If a Mack jersey was on sale, i would buy it. At 5 9 hell struggle to do some things, but a true gamer. Jack has had some good games. I love the heart they both show.
 
Shack, i would think Mike Williams comes back with a shot next year. As for this year, we're struggling to shoot. Next year well have an improved Daniels, Williams, Etou, Doorson, Foreman and rest of team.

Two players we've yet to see yet in Diallo and Johnson/Goode. I am hopeful they'll contribute.
 
effort on both ends..tireless effort.

teamwork

fundamentally sound
 
What? I'll tell you what, and it's scary, because it's the SAME things that have stopped us from winning - for the most part - over the last 3 decades:

- we can't shoot (this includes fast-breaks and any other form of lay-ups)
- we can't rebound
- we turn the ball over too much
- we give up tons of points off of said turnovers
- we can't stop the hot 3-point shooter
- we can't score off in-bounds plays
- we can't stop the other guy from scoring off in-bounds plays


...fix those things and we'll be winning more games. Pretty simple!
 
Originally posted by AreYouNUTS:
What? I'll tell you what, and it's scary, because it's the SAME things that have stopped us from winning - for the most part - over the last 3 decades:

- we can't shoot (this includes fast-breaks and any other form of lay-ups)
- we can't rebound
- we turn the ball over too much
- we give up tons of points off of said turnovers
- we can't stop the hot 3-point shooter
- we can't score off in-bounds plays
- we can't stop the other guy from scoring off in-bounds plays


...fix those things and we'll be winning more games. Pretty simple!
Click to expand...
So basically you're saying we have to fix EVERYTHING, eh ?
I think you're right.
 
Damn, if that's it RUNUTS, we might just be better off shutting the program down. I'd attack maybe 3-4 of those. No team will be perfect, and Rutgers has always been the farthest thing from perfect. I didn't see the past 30 yrs like you did. I just look forward at this point.

Dj Foreman is close to finishing those chippies. If he does, he can be a 8+ scorer per game next year. He has has a couple good games, and a couple games where he almost had a great game for a freshman. Just has to finish.

I agree we need shooters. Hopefully next year Mike Williams regains his form of being a great shooter. Hopefully goode can chip in 6+ a night off the bench and do what he came here to do, shoot.

Damn lot of hoping.
 
We don't have a full roster of scholarship players.

We don't have the necessary pieces to be a good offensive team

1. A guard that can dribble penetrate.
2. Shooters that can spread the floor.

So many announcers this year have stated the same thing:

If you can't shoot; you get discouraged, you press to try to make something happen. It also impacts your overall intensity. NOTE: This is "NOT' unique to Rutgers...it happens to any team that cannot score.
 
Originally posted by higgins3:
Damn, if that's it RUNUTS, we might just be better off shutting the program down. I'd attack maybe 3-4 of those. No team will be perfect, and Rutgers has always been the farthest thing from perfect. I didn't see the past 30 yrs like you did. I just look forward at this point.

Dj Foreman is close to finishing those chippies. If he does, he can be a 8+ scorer per game next year. He has has a couple good games, and a couple games where he almost had a great game for a freshman. Just has to finish.

I agree we need shooters. Hopefully next year Mike Williams regains his form of being a great shooter. Hopefully goode can chip in 6+ a night off the bench and do what he came here to do, shoot.

Damn lot of hoping.
Click to expand...
hahaha I agree just pointing out how obvious it is that we've had ALL those problems - for the most part - during this entire draught! I few of those, you would think, are things that you can work on and correct (in-bounds plays and defending the hot shooter, at the least...).
frown.r191677.gif
 
Originally posted by willisneverrana43:
Some of these posts have lots of words to avoid the most obvious of obvious answers: talent.
Click to expand...
This. Forget the ins and outs of the game. Forget whether or not we are playing well in transition or if we are fighting screens. Talent, keeping talent, and developing talent is the lifeblood of a program. If you aren't consistently recruiting 4 and 5 star players, you are going to have to develop guys. We have been TERRIBLE at developing players. I might go as far as saying some guys have played worse as their careers went on.
 
The fact this futility has gone on for over two decades and will continue for at least another five years simply shows very little positive has occurred.Every criteria for measuring how a winning team should perform would now get a failing grade at Rutgers.Talent wise the players are at the MAC level and even worse there has been very little evidence of player development. The future is bleak because the league competition isn't weak and the out of conference opponents Rutgers has difficulty defeating.The only thing that has changed is that the dwindling fan base has gotten older.
 
Originally posted by AreYouNUTS:
What? I'll tell you what, and it's scary, because it's the SAME things that have stopped us from winning - for the most part - over the last 3 decades:

- we can't shoot (this includes fast-breaks and any other form of lay-ups)
- we can't rebound
- we turn the ball over too much
- we give up tons of points off of said turnovers
- we can't stop the hot 3-point shooter
- we can't score off in-bounds plays
- we can't stop the other guy from scoring off in-bounds plays


...fix those things and we'll be winning more games. Pretty simple!
Click to expand...
that pretty much covers it. I would add a team that gives maximum effort and fights through adversity and shaper coaching
 
mack is not overrated, but Big Ten coaches are smart enough to know team can't shoot and put best guard on Mack. he does not score we have no chance. Indiana game Mack scored 24 points and we took them to the last two minutes. like Patrick said we need better shooters. team needs a John Battle type.
 
There IS talent on this team. The team is just built wrong. and as a result the team isn't as good as the parts.

A)We have no great shooters on this team Williams was supposed to be that but I don't know what happened to him. Mack is okay-but I will get to him in a second
B)Depth is the back court is terrible. Mack is getting tired and you can see that. I think Daniels is gettiing too many minutes he need to be the shot in the arm type of sixth man that helps us in spurts.
C)The front court is too young. Besides Jack (which I will get to in a little bit), everybody is either a freshman or getting starting minutes for the first time in their lives.
D)Bad free throw shooting. There isn't anything else to be said.
E)Mack and Jack-I love Mack, but the issue is he can't be the primary scorer because he needs to find other ways to get open he can't do it on his own at 5'9". Too many times he drives and goes nowhere because the inexperienced front court is out of position and he can't find an open guy. As far as Jack in concerned-he has talent but its not enough to overcome his defensive lapses. I can live with him not getting back if he was an 18ppg player but he is not.

So the question is how do we fix this?

A)Johnson and Goode HAVE to be good shooters for us to really be successful next year. Either that or Williams has to become the Williams we all thought he was going to be.
B)We get 3 more guards next year, including one that is probably great. At the very minimum we'll have the bodies. Problem solved in my opinion.
C)One more year of experience for these guys plus we add Diallo who has been here the whole time. I would also like Freeman as well (he is a JUCO so he shouldn't have the same freshman problems we do now), but I think this becomes solved as well.
D)Not sure how we fix this. Plus we lose our best free throw shooter next year. Still going to be an issue. Maybe we should bring naked free throw shooting back.
ohwell.r191677.gif

E)We get Sanders, and hopefully he can become the person that makes his own shot, which would be great. Probably Etou will be the second option. He has the potential, we'll have to wait and see.

I think we will have enough to be better, but everything has to go right if we winning alot of games next year. I still think we can be around .500.
 
The free throw shooting is terrible, Foreman better shoot 500 foul shots a day during the summer.
 
1. A guard that can dribble penetrate.
2. Shooters that can spread the floor.

No doubt. Mack is quick and can beat players off the dribble, but he doesn't penetrate gaps as often now. Eddie Jordan has really done his best to transition him to a pg and has done a good job.

Racru,See,we need to recruit 4 and 5 stars, but have been a losing program for a long time. I don't think it works like that. When we win, we can recruit like that. For now, looking at five stars that are out of NJ might be a huge waste of time. To get five star talent, you need to have an above .500 record if you even want them to consider. Work on getting 3 stars and developing a balanced roster of IQ and athleticism. To Coach Jordan credit, he has been doing that. Well see if it works out next year.
 
Seels, as always great post. Problems and solutions. I agree that our lack of depth is killing us this year. Eddie Jordan only really had one way to go about this season and it was to run Mack as much as possible. Defense is still being played at some places, but most of basketball is becoming an offense show. Teams that win championships you will see them playing defense.


Thank god next year we have some extra parts. I don't think Sanders is being run at 35 minutes next year.

As for shooting, we need to locate a specific style of pg. Not too thought intensive, but we need to find one that can dribble penetrate and pass. Sometimes we have players hit the gaps, but don't take the thought to pass it out after they draw two guards. That is IQ, and it needs to change.

In this league, Michigan State was great at knowing that. If you can penetrate, draw two, and kick out well, your offense is made a lot easier.

I just have to think Williams comes back and finds the basket next year. I am not saying he hits 4 3's a night, but he wiill start hitting 2 a night.
 
Runuts, i hear you. Take one at a time, or just knock a couple of them off. We've rebounded well some games this year, but we're still at the bottom off the conference statistically.

Add the beginning of the season i knew this transition would be tough because of how fundamentally sound the big 10 is to other conferences. You see more fundamentals and high iq players. Rutgers needs to incorporate more fundamentals to be successful.

Shields, spot on. It's an easy game plan to trap Mack. Take Mack out, and the game is over. From a facilitating point of view, if you take him out the offense stalls. From a shooting view, it stalls. You can leave Jack un doubled, but if you double Mack it's game over for the most part. Most teams probably throw a double on Jack because he is turnover prone. He leads the team i believe.

If you look at Mack and Jack, they have improved. Etou has improved. Over this season, we've seen players improve. Over the course of rutgers history, maybe we haven't.
 
What keeps this team from winning games? Talent and coaching. Other than that, we're good!
 
Originally posted by RU-ROCS:
What keeps this team from winning games? Talent and coaching. Other than that, we're good!
Click to expand...
And what prevents us from getting talent and coaching?
 
Coaching- Eddie Jordan has the least paid job in the big ten with the highest taxes most likely. No one else was coming here for the most part.

talent- We have a losing history and need to recruit differently because of it. 4-5 stars i don't think are coming here because of our history .Well get a few. I don't know if our time is best spent looking at 5 stars. Say everyone thinks highly of Eddie Jordan but they don't end up coming here-wasted time and resources. Look for 3-4 stars with players that have good character. That won't sue you, that won't high jack an offense, that play somewhat selflessly.

We have talent on the roster that needs to be coached up. Have some size, have some athleticism, now we need to go back to basics and re teach basketball IQ. IQ is passing out of a press, hitting the open man once you draw two,etc.
 
Using screens and making hard cuts wouldn't hurt.

My rec teams do these things better.

I do think our offensive schemes don't utilize the offensive talent we have. I want a few possessions isolated pick and roll with Mack and jack. And then some possessions with Mack off the ball, sometimes it is easier for opponents to defend on ball vs. someone off the ball.
 
I hear you,grf. I would also just in general like to see more pick and rolls. Mack/lewis Mack/Shaq Mack/KJ.

I am surprised there hasn't been more of it.
 
A stretch 4 would be great but those guys don't grow on trees. There are probably some overseas and maybe Shoes Vetrone can get one. I'm sure there are also some playing on the Ivy League.
 
Kaminsky shoots the 3 ball better than anyone of our guards. Kid from Wisconsin.

A stretch four would be nice, but so would just a scary four guy. Hard to find,and rutgers has to be a hard place to recruit.

They've got some positives, but 30 yrs of not so great basketball doesn't bode well for a lot of people. Still, 1 year can chance a lot of things.
 
Originally posted by RU-Choppin-Ohio:

A stretch 4 would be great but those guys don't grow on trees. There are probably some overseas and maybe Shoes Vetrone can get one. I'm sure there are also some playing on the Ivy League.
Click to expand...
airfare is expensive
 
Take the money from the practice facility and use it to fund the fights. Lots of teams going overseas these days.

Oh wait, what money from the practice facility.Darn it!
 
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