OT - Game of Thrones - Just passed the books (spoilers)

[T2Kplus10]

For those watching the greatest TV show on right now, last Sunday's GoT episode was kind of special. The TV show has finally moved past the novels in content - via Tyrion reaching Dany.

And a bunch of other subplots/story arcs have been cut, so perhaps they don't matter much in the novels.

So where is the story going now, NOBODY knows! Or at least, no fans know.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Not really, since there is still a lot that has not happen in that story line... which includes the famous Dragon riding scene the return of everyone's favorite barbarian riders. I sure hope they don't skip those.

The TV show is so different now that it is really its own thing much like the Walking Dead.

 

[RUsojo]

Imho, the show made history last night (this whole season) by becoming a complete abomination of a narrative. Not only is the show so far off from the books now, but the poetic license they have taken has just been boring and unimaginative. I just don't get it. The writers/producers have done a horrible job.

What I don't get is they seemed to have rushed passed the books on purpose just to go their own way. If they took their time and kept the storylines intact, it would've done more to further plot, both practically and for overall excitement to future plot implications, and they could've remained behind the books.

To me, the writers, producers, etc clearly wanted the opportunity to branch out and do their own story instead of stick to what has been a huge success - their ability to re create GRR book.

I can't watch without my blood boiling...

 

[T2Kplus10]

Imho, the show made history last night (this whole season) by becoming a complete abomination of a narrative. Not only is the show so far off from the books now, but the poetic license they have taken has just been boring and unimaginative. I just don't get it. The writers/producers have done a horrible job.

What I don't get is they seemed to have rushed passed the books on purpose just to go their own way. If they took their time and kept the storylines intact, it would've done more to further plot, both practically and for overall excitement to future plot implications, and they could've remained behind the books.

To me, the writers, producers, etc clearly wanted the opportunity to branch out and do their own story instead of stick to what has been a huge success - their ability to re create GRR book.

I can't watch without my blood boiling...

100% of what you said is incorrect. The TV series is becoming better and better than the books, which have gotten bogged down into unnecessary tangents and fluff. All the differences are just combinations of existing storylines in order to move the content forward. They also cut the stupid stuff like zombie Cat and fake Aegon.

GRRM is one small step away from turning his series into the next Wheel of Time train wreck.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

I like the books a lot better, they are the only true version. The TV show is non-canon and just for fun just like the video games, I can't take it seriously.

Also Walking Dead Cat is rumored to be coming this season.

 

[RU4Real]

100% of what you said is incorrect. The TV series is becoming better and better than the books, which have gotten bogged down into unnecessary tangents and fluff. All the differences are just combinations of existing storylines in order to move the content forward. They also cut the stupid stuff like zombie Cat and fake Aegon.

GRRM is one small step away from turning his series into the next Wheel of Time train wreck.

While I agree on zombie Cat, just on general principle, I don't think all the other plot lines are a waste. It remains to be seen what becomes of them.

The series is obviously trying to trim itself because most of the complaints come from people unfamiliar with the books who can't follow everything that's going on.

What I dislike, however, is the mutation of some of the key plot lines. We all know that Sansa doesn't marry Ramsey Snow/Bolton - in reality, Littlefinger would NEVER permit such an arrangement, as he's clearly infatuated and wants her to himself. Nor am I happy about the mashup of things ongoing at The Wall - the original storyline that has Sam Tarley going to Oldtown is critical. Squashing it makes no sense.

I thing HBO is trying to wrap this whole thing up in another season, or at most, two.

 

[RUsojo]

100% of what you said is incorrect. The TV series is becoming better and better than the books, which have gotten bogged down into unnecessary tangents and fluff. All the differences are just combinations of existing storylines in order to move the content forward. They also cut the stupid stuff like zombie Cat and fake Aegon.

GRRM is one small step away from turning his series into the next Wheel of Time train wreck.

I gotta say, I've talked to SO many people who have read the books and you are the first person I have come across that feels this way.

I'm jealous because I wish I could have your feelings of joy while watching every Sunday night. You should take extra pleasure in being quite possibly the only person in the world feels that way.

It's my contention that the way plot lines have been combined has resulted in a more disjointed plot than the "unnecessary tangents and fluff" you referred to did in the books. I feel there is no logical reasoning for some of the character decisions or actions taken.

 

[RU848789]

While I agree on zombie Cat, just on general principle, I don't think all the other plot lines are a waste. It remains to be seen what becomes of them.

The series is obviously trying to trim itself because most of the complaints come from people unfamiliar with the books who can't follow everything that's going on.

What I dislike, however, is the mutation of some of the key plot lines. We all know that Sansa doesn't marry Ramsey Snow/Bolton - in reality, Littlefinger would NEVER permit such an arrangement, as he's clearly infatuated and wants her to himself. Nor am I happy about the mashup of things ongoing at The Wall - the original storyline that has Sam Tarley going to Oldtown is critical. Squashing it makes no sense.

I thing HBO is trying to wrap this whole thing up in another season, or at most, two.

My wife and son are nuts for the show, having read the books and I've never read the books and only watched the occasional episode. To be social, I've been watching most of the past two seasons, since our son has often been home on Sunday nights (he comes home most weekends from college in NYC in order to play gigs in NJ with his band - odd reverse commute, lol, but that's a separate topic) and the story lines are impossible to follow - I'm lucky if I know what country/region they're in, lol. Luckily I don't really care that much and will often get distracted by surfing the web.

Off topic, for my money the best show on TV is the one that follows GOT on HBO: Silicon Valley. Funny on so many levels and bitingly true, too. The episode 2 weeks ago where Gilfoyle and Dinesh "appropriated" the SWOT (strengths/weaknesses/opportunities/threats) tool, which they all despised, for use to evaluate the pros and cons of a stunt cyclist dying because his calculations were off (and they knew it by quick inspection of his calcs, but he didn't want to hear their input) was priceless, especially since Dinesh thought he might then have a shot with the stuntman's very hot girlfriend.

 

[T2Kplus10]

While I agree on zombie Cat, just on general principle, I don't think all the other plot lines are a waste. It remains to be seen what becomes of them.

The series is obviously trying to trim itself because most of the complaints come from people unfamiliar with the books who can't follow everything that's going on.

What I dislike, however, is the mutation of some of the key plot lines. We all know that Sansa doesn't marry Ramsey Snow/Bolton - in reality, Littlefinger would NEVER permit such an arrangement, as he's clearly infatuated and wants her to himself. Nor am I happy about the mashup of things ongoing at The Wall - the original storyline that has Sam Tarley going to Oldtown is critical. Squashing it makes no sense.

I thing HBO is trying to wrap this whole thing up in another season, or at most, two.

HBO is on record with the series being 7 seasons long, so only 2 more after this. Ramsey is supposed to marry a Stark, even a fake one, so having Sansa do the deed is fine. It also sets up Sansa or Theon killing him and essentially making Sansa the wardeness of the North (controlled by Littlefinger). Honestly, not too sure why Sam and Oldtown is that important, if it was, it probably would have been included in the TV series, since GRRM is an advisor and has stated that the end of the TV series and books will be one in the same.

I think this season ends with Stannis and the Bolton's battle, Ramsey's death, a cliffhanging of Jon's fake death, and Dany saying it is time to win back Westeros.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

There is no Stannis/Bolton's battle, Stannis got stuck and never made it.

The iron born really got the short end of the stick on the TV show. Do people even remember who they are?

Oldtown is important because that is when we hear about the three heads of the Dragon, which I guess doesn't exist on the show.

 

[RU4Real]

Oldtown is additionally important (aside from the interesting artifact of Sam becoming a maester) because it sets up a possible reconciliation between Sam and his father, Randyll. In terms of logical plot development, this could hold several possibilities, most of which go badly for the Lannisters.

 

[MikeR0102]

GRRM is going to die before he finishes the books. Sad but true.

 

[T2Kplus10]

GRRM is going to die before he finishes the books. Sad but true.

Just like Robert Jordan!

 

[T2Kplus10]

There is no Stannis/Bolton's battle, Stannis got stuck and never made it.

The iron born really got the short end of the stick on the TV show. Do people even remember who they are?

Oldtown is important because that is when we hear about the three heads of the Dragon, which I guess doesn't exist on the show.

There is no Stannis/Bolton's battle, Stannis got stuck and never made it.

The iron born really got the short end of the stick on the TV show. Do people even remember who they are?

Oldtown is important because that is when we hear about the three heads of the Dragon, which I guess doesn't exist on the show.

Stannis hasn't made it YET in the books. But we are now beyond the books, the future is unknown! :)

 

[T2Kplus10]

Oldtown is additionally important (aside from the interesting artifact of Sam becoming a maester) because it sets up a possible reconciliation between Sam and his father, Randyll. In terms of logical plot development, this could hold several possibilities, most of which go badly for the Lannisters.

Really? Who cares. Sorry, but this is a super minor point.

 

[S.B. Crumb]

GRRM is going to die before he finishes the books. Sad but true.

 

[RU4Real]

Really? Who cares. Sorry, but this is a super minor point.

No it's not. You're just not thinking ahead / outside the box.

As for Stannis and the Boltons - remember that in the books, Stannis has already overtaken Deepwood Mott, has custody of BOTH Greyjoys and then becomes bogged down in the snow, short of Winterfell.

 

[RUInsanity]

While I agree on zombie Cat, just on general principle, I don't think all the other plot lines are a waste. It remains to be seen what becomes of them.

The series is obviously trying to trim itself because most of the complaints come from people unfamiliar with the books who can't follow everything that's going on.

What I dislike, however, is the mutation of some of the key plot lines. We all know that Sansa doesn't marry Ramsey Snow/Bolton - in reality, Littlefinger would NEVER permit such an arrangement, as he's clearly infatuated and wants her to himself. Nor am I happy about the mashup of things ongoing at The Wall - the original storyline that has Sam Tarley going to Oldtown is critical. Squashing it makes no sense.

I thing HBO is trying to wrap this whole thing up in another season, or at most, two.

I agree. The beauty of the novels is the potential merger and culmination of the various plot lines, the coming of winter and who will eventually grapple the throne.

There is too much intrigue that was left on the cutting room floor of the show. Victarian Greyjoy, Aegon, Griff and the battle at the Roost, Sam in Oldtown, Davos sidetrack quest etc......part of the fun is wondering where these plot lines go. Those who want easy answers should watch formulaic crime dramas.....I prefer the full plot lines.

I am greatly entertained by watching the show on HBO.....but at the same time dissapointed by what what eas cut/merged and what might have been.

The best Fantasy Series adaptation remains as Lord of the Rings.

 

[RUsojo]

Many people also gloss over the fact that Jaqen Haggar is in old town and on his way to the citadel... No one knows why, but could potential be on course for a clash with the sparrows and high septon...

 

[ScarletRunner]

I understand that book readers are disappointed about some of the missing/collapsed story lines, but HBO wants this wrapped up in 7 seasons - There are literally only 23 more hours to finish the whole story. GRRM can take his sweet time and introduce new characters and plot tangents because he can produce a 1200-page book, but there simply isn't enough room for fAegon, Zombie Cat, all of the ironborn, etc. on the TV show, nevermind the fact that casual viewers already have enough trouble keeping up with all of the characters.

 

[Scarlet_Monster]

The only thing that I'm really upset about is how ignored the Greyjoy storyline is. Nothing on Balon dropping dead, the return of Euron.

 

[ScarletRunner]

Euron will almost certainly be in Season 6. My guess is they mention Euron's death this season.

 

[RU848789]

I understand that book readers are disappointed about some of the missing/collapsed story lines, but HBO wants this wrapped up in 7 seasons - There are literally only 23 more hours to finish the whole story. GRRM can take his sweet time and introduce new characters and plot tangents because he can produce a 1200-page book, but there simply isn't enough room for fAegon, Zombie Cat, all of the ironborn, etc. on the TV show, nevermind the fact that casual viewers already have enough trouble keeping up with all of the characters.

Help me understand why HBO would want to end a series that is incredibly popular...

 

[T2Kplus10]

Help me understand why HBO would want to end a series that is incredibly popular...

Because all stories have an end. At least the good ones.

 

[RUsojo]

Wanted to check back in. Can't really take anyone seriously who thinks the show is better than the books. Forced me to check in with my fellow GoT fans and they all agreed the idea that these edited storylines are an improvement is ludicrous.

Hopefully Greyjoy storyline is picked up in season 6. Hopefully they send Sam to Oldtown and reveal Jaqen Haggar being there. Does Arya follow? Hopefully they end the Bronn/Jamie BS adventure. Ramsey/Sansa situation? Horrible. And then pray GRRM writes book six in time before the show head honchos don't have free reign.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Wanted to check back in. Can't really take anyone seriously who thinks the show is better than the books. Forced me to check in with my fellow GoT fans and they all agreed the idea that these edited storylines are an improvement is ludicrous.

Hopefully Greyjoy storyline is picked up in season 6. Hopefully they send Sam to Oldtown and reveal Jaqen Haggar being there. Does Arya follow? Hopefully they end the Bronn/Jamie BS adventure. Ramsey/Sansa situation? Horrible. And then pray GRRM writes book six in time before the show head honchos don't have free reign.

Sorry, but Feast and Dance are about 75% of pointless fluff. And book six isn't going to be out for another 3-4 years. I'm just waiting until he pulls a Robert Jordan and extend the series from 7 books to something more.

 

[Innermind]

Beware of internet rumors about HBO only wanting 7 seasons, because that is NOT true. HBO wants AT LEAST 7 seasons... that is the only thing confirmed at this point. So, there very well could be more than 7 seasons.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...thrones-can-we-realistically-expect-from-hbo/

As you can see by the article above, there has been some talk (but nothing confirmed) about how long the program will continue. So don't be surprised to eventually see more than 7 seasons.



For you folks who get angry about the TV program diverting from the novels, get prepared for even more differences, as even though the next book is not finished, filming of season 6 will commence within the next two months.

http://www.ibtimes.com/game-thrones-season-6-filming-may-continue-spain-dorne-scenes-1934802

Casting for the season six roles has already begun, which of course means the drafts of the episodes have already been written. Check out the following articles for some of the upcoming season six roles now being cast.

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-season-6-casting-has-begun-and-heres-the-list/

http://www.projectcasting.com/news/season-6-game-of-thrones-casting-call-leaks-online/

Speculation is running rampant about the roles, and as you can see in the article above, some folks suspect The Hound may have survived and could return next season.

Once casting is completed in a few weeks, work can begin on costume fitting & manufacture for the new characters. Obviously construction/fabrication of props and set design & construction needs to be finished-up over the next couple months prior to cameras rolling this Summer.

The point is that the season 6 TV episodes have already been written even though the next novel won't be finished for possibly/probably another 6 to 8 months. I'm sure the episode writers remain in constant contact with GRRM so that the spirit of the books is maintained per GRRM's vision, but again the point is that the season 6 pre-production phase of the TV program has already well surpassed the novels.

 

[Innermind]

Also, some fans probably need to be made aware of their 'confirmation bias' about the books being better than the TV program.

Stating things like... 'all the people I know who have read the books agree with me'(paraphrased)... does not make your opinion stronger, as is telling somebody else with a differing opinion that they are probably 'the only person in the world with that opinion', and saying that you 'can't take anyone seriously who likes the TV program better than the books' Wow.... those types of statements reek of confirmation bias.

Believe it or not, there are people who have read the books and still like the TV program better. It's OK for other folks to have a different opinion!

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

The Dunk and Egg stories will be collected and released this year. Winds of Winter should be out late 2016 (hopefully). The producers only want 7 seasons, HBO is trying to get 8. We may get a Mad Men type of deal as a compromise.

 

[RUsojo]

Also, some fans probably need to be made aware of their 'confirmation bias' about the books being better than the TV program.

Stating things like... 'all the people I know who have read the books agree with me'(paraphrased)... does not make your opinion stronger, as is telling somebody else with a differing opinion that they are probably 'the only person in the world with that opinion', and saying that you 'can't take anyone seriously who likes the TV program better than the books' Wow.... those types of statements reek of confirmation bias.

Believe it or not, there are people who have read the books and still like the TV program better. It's OK for other folks to have a different opinion!

I admit there are people out there who think the show is better. I also admit I can't value their opinion.

I know saying "everyone I know likes the book better" doesn't strengthen my opinion. I'm not trying to force my stance on anyone. Just relaying my experience. I know tons of people who read the books before the show started and and after it started. If a small minority had liked the show better than the books I would not have been as shocked as I was when hearing T2Ks opinion. I'm not saying he is wrong. I'm saying I personally don't value his opinion. Though I do appreciate the discussion.

 

[mdh2003]

Agree with Sojo - love the discussion.

My wife never read the books and thinks the show keeps getting better. I personably think, as good as it is, the show is plodding a bit. But, I also think the books are plodding a bit.

As a long time book reader, I REALLY appreciated how the show handled the best parts of the series, the Red Wedding, Oberyn/Mountain battle, Ned's fate. If you were hooked on the books, these events literally took your breath away. Just watch some of the reaction videos and you can see that the show nailed this. Any event that illicits such a strong reaction is not just due to the shocking nature of the final event. It was the previous drama and backstory that builds up to the event that does the heavy lifting of the viewer/reader to that point where the coaster takes the plunge. Here I think the shows producers deserve much credit. That to me is the ultimate compliment when adapting others work.

For the plot deviations, etc., I agree with old man George. The books are the books, the show is the show. It is quite possible to enjoy both for what the are. It seems that he does.

For mainly book fans, T2K made the most important point, re: WOT. I really hope it doesn't happen, but some of us have been through this previously, and the signs are there.

 

[ScarletRunner]

I meant to say I believe they're going to mention Balon's death this season, not Euron's.

They may in fact decide to extend beyond 7 seasons, but I believe the show runners are working within those confines. Meaning some plot-lines need to be significantly cut/streamlined, characters will be eliminated or combined, etc.

While I admit to lacking an intricate understanding of the finances of the show, I would guess that cost may be a barrier beyond the 7th season. The show has made stars of a great number of its principal actors... imagine negotiating new contracts for Coster-Waldau, Hedy, Sophie Turner, Kit Harrington, etc. at current market rates (assuming they's alive in the show of course :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:).

 

[T2Kplus10]

Agree with Sojo - love the discussion.

My wife never read the books and thinks the show keeps getting better. I personably think, as good as it is, the show is plodding a bit. But, I also think the books are plodding a bit.

As a long time book reader, I REALLY appreciated how the show handled the best parts of the series, the Red Wedding, Oberyn/Mountain battle, Ned's fate. If you were hooked on the books, these events literally took your breath away. Just watch some of the reaction videos and you can see that the show nailed this. Any event that illicits such a strong reaction is not just due to the shocking nature of the final event. It was the previous drama and backstory that builds up to the event that does the heavy lifting of the viewer/reader to that point where the coaster takes the plunge. Here I think the shows producers deserve much credit. That to me is the ultimate compliment when adapting others work.

For the plot deviations, etc., I agree with old man George. The books are the books, the show is the show. It is quite possible to enjoy both for what the are. It seems that he does.

For mainly book fans, T2K made the most important point, re: WOT. I really hope it doesn't happen, but some of us have been through this previously, and the signs are there.

I will admit, I am jaded due to the WOT experience and yes, I see signs of GRRM WOT'ing his series as well. Seriously, can anyone with a straight face say that Feast and Dance haven't been a significant step down in quality than the first 3 books?

 

[T2Kplus10]

I meant to say I believe they're going to mention Balon's death this season, not Euron's.

They may in fact decide to extend beyond 7 seasons, but I believe the show runners are working within those confines. Meaning some plot-lines need to be significantly cut/streamlined, characters will be eliminated or combined, etc.

While I admit to lacking an intricate understanding of the finances of the show, I would guess that cost may be a barrier beyond the 7th season. The show has made stars of a great number of its principal actors... imagine negotiating new contracts for Coster-Waldau, Hedy, Sophie Turner, Kit Harrington, etc. at current market rates (assuming they's alive in the show of course :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:).

The producers of the show are clearly on record with ending after season 7, can the HBO brass convince them to do one more season? Perhaps, but that decision has to happen extremely soon since the show is being written/planned to have only 20 more episodes after this season.

 

[ScarletEd]

For those watching the greatest TV show on right now, last Sunday's GoT episode was kind of special. The TV show has finally moved past the novels in content - via Tyrion reaching Dany.

And a bunch of other subplots/story arcs have been cut, so perhaps they don't matter much in the novels.

So where is the story going now, NOBODY knows! Or at least, no fans know.

I admit there are people out there who think the show is better. I also admit I can't value their opinion.

I know saying "everyone I know likes the book better" doesn't strengthen my opinion. I'm not trying to force my stance on anyone. Just relaying my experience. I know tons of people who read the books before the show started and and after it started. If a small minority had liked the show better than the books I would not have been as shocked as I was when hearing T2Ks opinion. I'm not saying he is wrong. I'm saying I personally don't value his opinion. Though I do appreciate the discussion.

For those watching the greatest TV show on right now, last Sunday's GoT episode was kind of special. The TV show has finally moved past the novels in content - via Tyrion reaching Dany.

And a bunch of other subplots/story arcs have been cut, so perhaps they don't matter much in the novels.

So where is the story going now, NOBODY knows! Or at least, no fans know.

 

[ScarletEd]

This is the only show on TV that I have problems understanding all the words spoken by the characters. I have to turn on "captions" subtitles to know every word that they say.

 

[RUBigFrank]

Part of the deviation from the book may be the ability to retain actors under contract. If I understand correctly - there have been three actors playing the role of the hound.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Part of the deviation from the book may be the ability to retain actors under contract. If I understand correctly - there have been three actors playing the role of the hound.

Not the Hound, the Mountain. Also Dany's boytoy was recasted due to a movie conflict with actor #1.

 

[RUsojo]

I will admit, I am jaded due to the WOT experience and yes, I see signs of GRRM WOT'ing his series as well. Seriously, can anyone with a straight face say that Feast and Dance haven't been a significant step down in quality than the first 3 books?

I will say 4/5 were a step down from 3 (because seriously it was amazing) but I would not agree with them being worse than 1/2.

I feel the people who may share your opinion were upset of the lack of returning characters in Feast. As a reader, you just have to come to terms with the fact that new characters need time to develop, especially after the author spends the time in the prior 3,000 pages by killing off a significant portion of the POV characters. I think the new characters (greyjoys fAegon etc) benefited the story because of the potential it had to effect the plot later on. Once the new show came out and ignored those plot lines, and GRRM acknowledge the show and books would end in relatively the same place, it's forced the reader to re analyze the usefulness of those plot lines as they now appear to be non factors because of the shows editing decisions.

To me, the last part of the above is where my whole gripe with the new season really begins.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I will say 4/5 were a step down from 3 (because seriously it was amazing) but I would not agree with them being worse than 1/2.

I feel the people who may share your opinion were upset of the lack of returning characters in Feast. As a reader, you just have to come to terms with the fact that new characters need time to develop, especially after the author spends the time in the prior 3,000 pages by killing off a significant portion of the POV characters. I think the new characters (greyjoys fAegon etc) benefited the story because of the potential it had to effect the plot later on. Once the new show came out and ignored those plot lines, and GRRM acknowledge the show and books would end in relatively the same place, it's forced the reader to re analyze the usefulness of those plot lines as they now appear to be non factors because of the shows editing decisions.

To me, the last part of the above is where my whole gripe with the new season really begins.

Did you read the WOT series? What was your impressions of it?