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OT: Official Hurricane Irma Thread

I know nobody wants to hear this, but Jose could possibly impact the US east coast in 7-10 days, after doing a crazy loop-de-loop in the Atlantic over the next several days. It's unlikely, but possible...

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/50244-hurricane-jose/…

21559071_10212131693361615_8462137079940532985_n.jpg
 
I know nobody wants to hear this, but Jose could possibly impact the US east coast in 7-10 days, after doing a crazy loop-de-loop in the Atlantic over the next several days. It's unlikely, but possible...

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/50244-hurricane-jose/…

21559071_10212131693361615_8462137079940532985_n.jpg

The GFS is seriously loving the idea of bringing Jose up the Delmarva into coastal southern NJ in the 8 day range. Interesting scenario in the upper levels - check out the 200 mb charts.
 
The GFS is seriously loving the idea of bringing Jose up the Delmarva into coastal southern NJ in the 8 day range. Interesting scenario in the upper levels - check out the 200 mb charts.
Euro stays 200+ miles off the Va/Md/Del/NJ coasts and the Euro destroyed the GFS at Days 3-5 and even 6-7 for Irma (even if the Euro was a bit off yesterday - most were a bit off yesterday), so I'll pass on the GFS solution until I see the Euro even nibble at it.
 
Euro stays 200+ miles off the Va/Md/Del/NJ coasts and the Euro destroyed the GFS at Days 3-5 and even 6-7 for Irma (even if the Euro was a bit off yesterday - most were a bit off yesterday), so I'll pass on the GFS solution until I see the Euro even nibble at it.

If you're looking for a nibble, note that the op Euro moved about 150 miles west between 0z and 12z.
 
If you're looking for a nibble, note that the op Euro moved about 150 miles west between 0z and 12z.

Actually, it looks like the relative difference is more speed / latitude than longitude. It's a little bit closer into the coast at 192 on the 12z, but mostly it's just further north than at 00z.
 
I get so worked up listening to you guys talk about longitude, latitude, being closer to the coast, 12zs, and Euros nibbling at things.
 
As I mentioned I think the weather services do a horrible job explaining storm surge. While the Southwest part of the state was spared, the northeast was hammered in Jacksonville. Jacksonville had a Sandy like effect where the wind to the ne of the storm backed up the St. John's river causing massive floods. However the effects on the beach were minor. My complaint with a beach storm surge is that it often goes over the dune, which is the highest point in the barrier island and dissipates quickly. A six foot surge usually leads to 6 inches of water for 2 blocks at the beach. However downtown, where there are no dunes it's devestating.
 
As I mentioned I think the weather services do a horrible job explaining storm surge. While the Southwest part of the state was spared, the northeast was hammered in Jacksonville. Jacksonville had a Sandy like effect where the wind to the ne of the storm backed up the St. John's river causing massive floods. However the effects on the beach were minor. My complaint with a beach storm surge is that it often goes over the dune, which is the highest point in the barrier island and dissipates quickly. A six foot surge usually leads to 6 inches of water for 2 blocks at the beach. However downtown, where there are no dunes it's devestating.

You make a really good point about tidal estuaries not being well accounted for in storm forecasting. The situation that you're seeing with the St. John's River right now is exactly the same situation that befell the Raritan River during Sandy. It's the reason why - unknown to most and not at all spoken of in the media - Sayreville, NJ led the league in Sandy storm surge, at 18.5 feet.
 
If you're looking for a nibble, note that the op Euro moved about 150 miles west between 0z and 12z.

But same place as it as at 12Z yesterday, so one could look at it as just fluctuations around a mean. Plenty to nibble on, in general, with the potential for a US landfall, which is still low, IMO, without support from the Euro and given climo (as per Don S on American, 20% of hurricanes in Jose's location made US landfall (80% did not), but the GFS into NJ isn't a solution I'm ready to nibble on at all. Although I'm sure Proud NJ guy is posting that GFS model output on FB right now, lol.
 
As I mentioned I think the weather services do a horrible job explaining storm surge. While the Southwest part of the state was spared, the northeast was hammered in Jacksonville. Jacksonville had a Sandy like effect where the wind to the ne of the storm backed up the St. John's river causing massive floods. However the effects on the beach were minor. My complaint with a beach storm surge is that it often goes over the dune, which is the highest point in the barrier island and dissipates quickly. A six foot surge usually leads to 6 inches of water for 2 blocks at the beach. However downtown, where there are no dunes it's devestating.

You're absolutely right that they do a poor job with both predictions and clear communications of those predictions. Those surge forecasts are at the 90th percentile of the range of the forecast, not the mid point, as they don't want to underestimate the surge. I get that, but it sets them up to be wrong more often. And then we have the case, like Sandy, where the NHC was predicting very high surges, yet the local NWS offices were downplaying those surges.

I don't have the answer on how best to do this, but there's no question it can be improved - especially for tidal river flooding, like happened where you are and the Miami River and many other places (as well as the rivers in NJ during Sandy, which is why flooding was so bad on the Hudson, Passaic, Raritan, etc.)
 
But same place as it as at 12Z yesterday, so one could look at it as just fluctuations around a mean. Plenty to nibble on, in general, with the potential for a US landfall, which is still low, IMO, without support from the Euro and given climo (as per Don S on American, 20% of hurricanes in Jose's location made US landfall (80% did not), but the GFS into NJ isn't a solution I'm ready to nibble on at all. Although I'm sure Proud NJ guy is posting that GFS model output on FB right now, lol.

Ah - but you left out part of what Don said about the climo - when Jose is done meandering, its forecasted position in 5 days would put it in a better spot for landfall.

Personally, I could do without it. My pool closing is scheduled for 10/2. If we get some kind of stupid crazy storm in a week and a half then I'll have to spend an entire day cleaning leaves out of the pool before they close it. I hate that part. :)

I dunno about Proud NJ guy, but Justin Auciello, who runs the Jersey Shore Hurricane News site on FB, has already written a post telling people to ignore the current social media hype re: the GFS and Jose.
 
Ah - but you left out part of what Don said about the climo - when Jose is done meandering, its forecasted position in 5 days would put it in a better spot for landfall.

Personally, I could do without it. My pool closing is scheduled for 10/2. If we get some kind of stupid crazy storm in a week and a half then I'll have to spend an entire day cleaning leaves out of the pool before they close it. I hate that part. :)

I dunno about Proud NJ guy, but Justin Auciello, who runs the Jersey Shore Hurricane News site on FB, has already written a post telling people to ignore the current social media hype re: the GFS and Jose.

could we have a separate thread on Jose? If nothing else, we can make clear how much uncertainty there is about that storm and what seems like the low probability it will hit the U.S.
 
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Ah - but you left out part of what Don said about the climo - when Jose is done meandering, its forecasted position in 5 days would put it in a better spot for landfall.

Personally, I could do without it. My pool closing is scheduled for 10/2. If we get some kind of stupid crazy storm in a week and a half then I'll have to spend an entire day cleaning leaves out of the pool before they close it. I hate that part. :)

I dunno about Proud NJ guy, but Justin Auciello, who runs the Jersey Shore Hurricane News site on FB, has already written a post telling people to ignore the current social media hype re: the GFS and Jose.

I left it out because my confidence in the 5-day forecast for Jose is pretty low, given the very unusual loop-de-loop track - tracks like that are highly uncertain, unlike a track like Irma's across the Atlantic, where confidence in the 5-day forecast was very high.

Don S, though, is a treasure on that board. He somehow seems to have instant access to evey interesting piece of data in weather history and can retrieve not just data, but does relevant analyses, which provide great insights. It's as if he has the coolest relational database of all the relevant weather data ever collected.

Do you not recall Proud NJ trolling this thread last week insisting it was coming to NJ?
 
Before this thread goes too far off Irma, I just wanted to join others in thanking #RU4Real and #RU848789 for their very helpful and insightful posts. I live in Miami and found this thread to be of greater benefit than anything else I saw online or on TV.
 
Absolutely, this could have been far, far worse, both from an intensity perspective (Cuba) and from a track perspective up the peninsula, with an east coast track being the more catastrophic track, both with regard to the storm surge likely being greater with the stronger side of the storm throwing water onto the land and the much greater population at risk.

I asked a question a few days ago on AmericanWx about almost exactly what you said with regard to accumulated knowledge, although I was asking about that with regard to major hurricanes approaching the US east coast, as my intuition tells me those tend to go east of where they're predicted to go (like Matthew last year). I wanted to know if anyone had analyzed storms of interest, like the much smaller subset of major landfalling/near landfalling storms, instead of just analyzing overall verification scores for any storms. Didn't really get an answer, but often don't in very active threads - may ask it again as a separate thread.

With respect to evacuations and emergency planning, in hindsight, the evacuations of the Keys and Gulf Coast were clearly warranted, while the evacuations of the east coast were mostly unnecessary (although damage there was more than expected yesterday) - I took a bit of a risk and told my dad to sit tight in Vero on Weds/Thurs until we knew the track better (knowing he could high tail it across to Tampa if he needed to in a few hours) and that worked out for him, unlike the many who fled to the Gulf Coast.

But as you well know, with the uncertainty of the science and the need to implement evacuation plans for millions of people 3+ days in advance, what could have been done differently? At 11 am Thursday the model consensus (and NHC track) was for an east coast track and by about 5 pm Friday that consensus was for a west coast track - and for both of those consensus tracks the entire peninsula was still within the "cone of uncertainty."

That's why they essentially felt they had to evacuate the Keys and the east coasts and some of South Florida starting mid-week and didn't really start the evacuations of the west coast, in earnest until Thursday into Friday. Yeah it was terribly inconvenient for those on the east coast, but in the face of uncertainty and potential catastrophe if evacuations weren't ordered, I think it was the right decision.

What made all of this even more complex was that an error of only 50 miles for when the turn to the NW actually happened from near Cuba (and it happened around 8 pm last night), would've made the difference between the track up the west coast and a track up the center of the peninsula, which would've had far more impact on the east coast. That prediction was hard enough to make on Saturday, let alone on Wednesday or Thursday. Hence the conundrum for evacuation planning.

What might be interesting is if they could figure out a way to hold off further on evacuations, but figure out some way to do them much more efficiently (contraflow), so they could be done in 2 days - they maybe then could've held off on evacuations until Friday morning and seen that they didn't really need to evacuate the east coast. But on the flip side, the east coast was still in the cone until very late Friday, which would not give enough time for a fast evacuation. My guess is any storm like this that could come up the peninsula will always have evacuations of far more people than end up being necessary.
Apologies for the long post, but it's something I've thought about a lot and just started typing, lol. The track archive is worth looking at and I posted the Thursday and Friday tracks for comparison.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2017/IRMA_graphics.php?product=5day_cone_with_line_and_wind

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Great post-mortem in the link below, although in true @jellyman fashion, I decided to write up my own post-mortem. It's a little long, lol.

Footage of the damage from Irma in the Keys and SW Florida is sobering. In those locations, Irma certainly lived up to the predictions and most of the people who didn't evacuate are in dire straits without power or water. Through much of the rest of Florida, Irma probably didn't quite live up to the forecasts, as storm surges and winds along most of the rest of the Gulf Coast north of about Naples weren't as bad as feared, as Irma's somewhat unexpected inland track weakend the storm. I'm not going to try to document the damage in this post, as most people are seeing that on TV or the internet.

Having said that, though, Irma ended up having impacts more significant than expected, the day before landfall, for most of central and eastern Florida, as the powerful storm bands on the NE side of the storm led to hurricane force winds/gusts nearly everywhere and fairly significant storm surges on the east coast, especially in northern Florida (Jacksonville, in particular with record flooding) and parts of GA/SC, including Charleston. Of course, the impacts to the FL east coast, GA, and SC were far less than would have occurred if the forecasts from 3-4 days before landfall had been correct with the path up the east coast.

Which brings me to the meteorology of the event, which I've obviously been talking about for days. As all of the experts were saying and I was repeating, there were a few critical points that greatly impacted how this all played out. First, Irma's somewhat surprising landfall and path along Cuba, greatly disrupted Irma's circulation, weakening the storm from about 160 mph to 120 mph. This outcome wasn't forecast that well by the NHC, although he Euro did predict the Cuba interaction pretty well. The Euro was, by far, the best model for the entire storm, as per the graphic below.

Second, probably the most important feature was when Irma finally made its NW, then northward move - this was forecast reasonably well from about Friday onward, as Irma did end up making that turn SE of Key West and generally heading up over the Keys and then up near/along/just inland of the Gulf Coast, as predicted. Obvoiusly, however, this was not that well predicted from 3+ days out, as the forecasts from early last week through about Thursday afternoon consistently showed Irma making that turn, earlier and coming up the east coast of Florida as a Cat 4/5 storm. The difficulty in pinpointing such a turn more than a day or two in advance is inherent to the accuracy of the models, which simply aren't going to be reliable to +/- 50 miles (the width of Florida) from 3+ days out, as was borne out in reality.

Third, the final track from Keys up the Gulf Coast was not forecast that well by the NHC, as the official track generally called for the storm to remain just offshore up to the Tampa area, where the 2nd landfall was expected. As we all saw, the 2nd landfall was made on St. Marco Island, just SE of Naples, and then the storm went up the coast inland 10-20 miles, rather than offshore. This resulted in significant weakening to Cat 1 status by the time it reached the Tampa area, whereas it was predicted to be Cat 2/3 by then and then predicted to make another landfall south of Tallahassee, which never occurred, as Irma stayed inland, heading up to GA/AL.

So, while the forecasts, overall, were pretty damn impressive and certainly everyone in harm's way had more than enough time to evacuate or prepare, clearly, the science of meteorology is still not accurate enough to know precisely where a hurricane will strike several days out (and may never be, due to the uncertainties due to chaos theory, which I've discussed before) and isn't always going to be completely accurate even 12 hours before landfall, as was seen with the surprise inland path on Sunday.

All of which is why people will, for the foreseeable future, need to make evacuation/shelter-in-place decisions with imperfect information, which makes those decisions so challenging. Just imagine another outcome which could have occurred: Irma doesn't come so close to Cuba, remaining a Cat 5 storm, then makes the turn up the east coast of Florida instead of the west coast, giving people only 12-18 hours or so of notice of that deviation vs. the forecast. Talk about a potential tragedy - and that is why emergency response planners will always err on the side of caution in events like this. For a great breakdown of the forecasting of the storm, see the link below.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-room-for-improvement/?utm_term=.060d95ee7f0f

21743082_10212134802999354_7828167208310374011_n.jpg
 
This storm was an eye opener regarding surge with the "anti-surge" effect. Future forecasting needs to take into account the out and back in of a surge - this was more prevalent due to the storm being on the west side of the Florida peninsula.
 
I left it out because my confidence in the 5-day forecast for Jose is pretty low, given the very unusual loop-de-loop track - tracks like that are highly uncertain, unlike a track like Irma's across the Atlantic, where confidence in the 5-day forecast was very high.

Don S, though, is a treasure on that board. He somehow seems to have instant access to evey interesting piece of data in weather history and can retrieve not just data, but does relevant analyses, which provide great insights. It's as if he has the coolest relational database of all the relevant weather data ever collected.

Do you not recall Proud NJ trolling this thread last week insisting it was coming to NJ?

DS is great. He's one of the guys who makes that board worth reading in spite of some of the other. less auspicious, characters.

I'm pretty sure Spanky booted P-NJ from the thread after the insistence that Irma would roll up the coast. I don't know how you feel, but I would be in favor of a "storm mode" of moderation for this board, under certain circumstances.
 
Before this thread goes too far off Irma, I just wanted to join others in thanking #RU4Real and #RU848789 for their very helpful and insightful posts. I live in Miami and found this thread to be of greater benefit than anything else I saw online or on TV.
One of the reasons I cleanup the hurricane and snowstorm threads.
 
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Before this thread goes too far off Irma, I just wanted to join others in thanking #RU4Real and #RU848789 for their very helpful and insightful posts. I live in Miami and found this thread to be of greater benefit than anything else I saw online or on TV.

Have to echo these comments! Great job by both! and welcome the intelligent conversation!
 
DS is great. He's one of the guys who makes that board worth reading in spite of some of the other. less auspicious, characters.

I'm pretty sure Spanky booted P-NJ from the thread after the insistence that Irma would roll up the coast. I don't know how you feel, but I would be in favor of a "storm mode" of moderation for this board, under certain circumstances.

One of the reasons I cleanup the hurricane and snowstorm threads.

I'm normally not a "board moderation" kind of guy, but I have to say, Spanky's moderation of this thread really helped make it a much more civil and enjoyable thread for me and almost everyone else, I imagine.

Even though there have been times when you and I and bac and I (and even you and bac) have had pretty strong arguments over what was going to happen for a snowstorm or a hurricane, I think all three of us generally are trying to bring relevant information to the board and I've never really had an issue with disagreements of that nature.

It's the troll posts ("storm cancel", "bustorama," "your forecasts suck" etc.) that bring these threads down on occasion, causing me to type thousands of words and you to consider calling in Seal Team 6, lol. So, I guess I've changed my mind and have come around to Spanky's viewpoint on this - at least for major storms.
 
Before this thread goes too far off Irma, I just wanted to join others in thanking #RU4Real and #RU848789 for their very helpful and insightful posts. I live in Miami and found this thread to be of greater benefit than anything else I saw online or on TV.
Yes, thank you guys.
 
This thread was very informative.

Had some friends ride it out on Marco Island. They said it was harrowing but the only damage to their condo complex was a couple of downed trees. They already had power restored yesterday but a "boil water" alert is in effect and the water pressure is low. A lot of the areas on the island have had power restored and people were allowed back on to return yesterday morning.

Looking at pictures, thankfully the damage to the island in general was not as bad as it could have been. Heading down that way in November and sure won't take it for granted that the place still exists, close to what it was when I left it last time.
 
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Before this thread goes too far off Irma, I just wanted to join others in thanking #RU4Real and #RU848789 for their very helpful and insightful posts. I live in Miami and found this thread to be of greater benefit than anything else I saw online or on TV.
Thanks also. You guys don't know how appreciative I am. Next bowl game I owe you both a beer.
 
Have to echo these comments! Great job by both! and welcome the intelligent conversation!
Allow me to provide some counterpoint.

I think @RU848789 and @RU4Real totally suck at this weather stuff! Neither one can actually control the weather even a little bit. It's all mambogenisis this and circumlowventilation that. Pshaw, I say. Pshaw!

And the moderation by @DJ Spanky? Moderate THIS!

:D
 
Allow me to provide some counterpoint.

I think @RU848789 and @RU4Real totally suck at this weather stuff! Neither one can actually control the weather even a little bit. It's all mambogenisis this and circumlowventilation that. Pshaw, I say. Pshaw! .

And the moderation by @DJ Spanky? Moderate THIS!

:D

I agree.
BTW, a big chunk of my family including my 84 year old mom live down in Cape Coral. They're OK. They were gonna ride out the storm until concerns arose over a big-time surge. The were evacuated to the police station...which is a newish, sturdy building. They got to go home yesterday. Just some damage to one gutter from a falling tree branch. But no electricity. They have generators.and lots of gas. And they are very thankful that Irma is gone and they didn't get completely flooded.
 
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This thread was very informative.

Had some friends ride it out on Marco Island. They said it was harrowing but the only damage to their condo complex was a couple of downed trees. They already had power restored yesterday but a "boil water" alert is in effect and the water pressure is low. A lot of the areas on the island have had power restored and people were allowed back on to return yesterday morning.

Looking at pictures, thankfully the damage to the island in general was not as bad as it could have been. Heading down that way in November and sure won't take it for granted that the place still exists, close to what it was when I left it last time.
Surprised their power is back up that fast.
 
Surprised their power is back up that fast.

Me too. It's not the whole island, but they started restoring it yesterday, so I'd imagine progress on that end would continue today.

I did read for other areas on the west coast of Florida it could take up to 10 days or so, given the damage to the systems there.
 
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