ADVERTISEMENT

OT: Wintry Pattern for 3/10 - 3/17 or so

RU848789

Legend
Gold Member
Jul 27, 2001
60,616
39,225
113
Metuchen, NJ
Well, this could be our last shot at some winter before spring takes hold. The hemispheric pattern is expected to develop high latitude ridging over Greenland (i.e., a "polar block" and a negative North Atlantic Oscillation index), which is highly conducive to cold and possible snow starting early Friday through about the end of next week, at least (beyond that is very far out and hard to predict, although climatology does not favor snow potential past about mid-March, although it's still possible). We're pretty much guaranteed to be mostly below normal in temperatures during this period and we're going to have multiple chances of winter storms, but there's no guarantee of any significant snow. Yet.

The first chance of some wintry precip is very early Friday morning, when it's possible we could get a bit of snow (or rain to snow) - at this point this is looking like a minor event with maybe 1-2" of snow being possible (and little to no snow is also possible). If the snow mostly falls before about 8 am, we could see some accumulations before the sun starts warming things above 32F - precip after that point could be snow or a mix to rain as temps warm above freezing.

A much bigger potential winter storm could hit on Sunday. This is still 5+ days out, so uncertainty is still quite high. There's almost certainly going to be a significant storm - the question, at this point, is whether the storm track brings it close enough to our area for a major snowfall or if it's suppressed far enough off the coast by the polar vortex for a minor snowfall near the coast (it should be cold enough for snow either way). Given that track errors this far out are over 150 miles and a track shift of <100 miles would likely make difference between little to no snow" and 6-10", for example, along the I-95 corridor in central/north Jersey, this storm bears watching.

Right now, the near miss is looking more likely, but the snowier solution cannot be ruled out as the "players" (the systems that will eventually form the storm) are still over the data sparse Pacific Ocean, meaning the model accuracy 5+ days out is low. In addition, the long range models show the cold/wintry pattern continuing through most of next week with 1 or 2 more chances for wintry precip - way too far out to speculate on them, but the key is the pattern here is full of potential, as many top pros have noted. Specifically, here's what Earthlight, one of the best out there, had to say about the pattern:

"We are bordering on KU-level (KU is a Kocin-Uccinelli storm indicative of major to historic snowstorms in the past) hemispheric evolution now on much of the medium range ensemble guidance as we move into the Day 5-10 period. Westward movement of vorticity from Greenland into the Davis Straight and Central Canada with a closed and/or notable polar block circulation have been known to preclude some of the more prolific Northeast US snowstorms on record. In addition, the elongation of the tropospheric polar vortex over Southeast Canada suggests that cold, well sourced high pressure systems will be meandering to our north over Northern New England and Southeastern Canada. An active Pacific pattern ensures multiple disturbances ejecting eastwards into this airmass."

Been talking about this for the last day or so in another thread and was urged to start a new thread, so if this doesn't pan out and produce any snow, y'all know who to blame, lol. And below is this morning's NWS Mt. Holly discussion on both the Friday morning and Sunday systems. It's really well done, highlighting the potential, but high uncertainty. Also included a link to the model discussion thread on AmericanWx.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...y-rain-s-of-78-some-mix-n-of-78.119226/page-2

A surge of colder air will likely occur late Thursday night into
Friday when winds turn northerly as Arctic high pressure starts
to build in from central Canada. An overrunning setup that
follows could potentially bring wintry precipitation to at least
a portion of the forecast area Thursday night into Friday as a
Pac NW disturbance is steered around the base of the broad
northern-stream trough, eventually making its way into the Mid-
Atlantic region. Forecast thermal profiles support a transition
from rain to snow from north to south with this event but the
devil is in the (timing) details. Forecast confidence for
snowfall accumulations and for pinpointing where a band of
potentially locally higher amounts could set up is limited due
to the complexity of this pattern that requires many ingredients
to come together at the right time to produce snowfall
accumulations. While there are a few outlier models that are indicating 3+
inches of snow, there is much more support for lesser
accumulations. Nonetheless, some impacts to the Friday morning
commute are possible, especially in eastern PA and NJ where an
earlier arrival of the cold air favors snow for the rush.

Arctic high pressure will continue to build southeastward into the
Great Lakes and Northeast region this weekend. Meanwhile, a more
potent Pac NW shortwave trough (relate to the Friday system) is
forecast to track east-southeastward across the Central/Northern
Plains and Midwest on Saturday. Models then continue to hint at some
degree of phasing between this Pac NW system and southern-stream
energy moving into the Southern Plains and northern Gulf Coast
states later in the weekend. The surface low is then forecast to
rapidly deepen as it progresses eastward across the Southeast states
Sunday. There is still a high degree of uncertainty regarding the
track of the low once it reaches the coast. The are two general
track scenarios: 1) the low takes a turn more northward and closer
to the Mid-Atlantic coast or 2) the low doesn`t make the turn
northward and instead moves quickly out to sea. The former would
require stronger phasing to occur farther upstream and increase our
threat at a significant late-season snow storm. Over the past few
runs, model support for the latter (i.e., a more surpressed storm
track) has increased. However, there continues to be a large spread
in guidance and with this event still 5-6 days out, there is still
plenty of opportunity for models to trend back northward over
the next few days. Therefore, only slight adjustments downward
to the PoPs were made for Sunday. It`s still worthy of
highlighting in the HWO with stress about high forecast
uncertainty. At this juncture, it`s best to continue monitoring
the forecast throughout the week. Regardless of the outcome, the
likelihood of well-below normal temperatures for this weekend
is high.

http://forecast.weather.gov/product...&format=CI&version=1&glossary=1&highlight=off

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/49755-march-model-discussion/?page=14
 
Too late, we have our thread, i refuse to recognize this threa as it is a duplicate.
 

Never saw it - it's all your fault, lol...

The funny thing is I started drafting a post around 8 pm, after dinner, but before you started your thread, then got sidetracked with actual work, and then got sleepy and figured I'd catch some z's and finish the thread off after the 0Z models and the 4 am NWS updates came out. Oh well...
 
Last edited:
Never saw it - it's all your fault, lol...
Yeah, I did not tag you in an official sense, but I paid homage to you and everything. I could not find a word to rhyme with Mike Wood.

Two things:
1. @e5fdny and I will be policing this thread. One weather event per thread!!! You have two in this one.

2. I have to go look, but I don't think you answered my question about the Jesus and Mary Chain. Have you seen them recently or ever? I have heard reviews of their shows that are all over the place from horrible to pretty good.

3. Is it going to snow this weekend?
 
Dan Zarrow 101.5 reported Tuesday morning that we may get 2-3 inches early Friday morning. The more substantial storm on Sat night/Sunday may or not happen. He will report on the certainty on Wednesday and have some idea on amounts on Thursday. Stay tuned.
 
Dan Zarrow 101.5 reported Tuesday morning that we may get 2-3 inches early Friday morning. The more substantial storm on Sat night/Sunday may or not happen. He will report on the certainty on Wednesday and have some idea on amounts on Thursday. Stay tuned.
I only care what Amy Freeze and Mike Woods say. They are the only legitimate meteorologists in the tri-state area.
 
Yeah, I did not tag you in an official sense, but I paid homage to you and everything. I could not find a word to rhyme with Mike Wood.

Two things:
1. @e5fdny and I will be policing this thread. One weather event per thread!!! You have two in this one.

2. I have to go look, but I don't think you answered my question about the Jesus and Mary Chain. Have you seen them recently or ever? I have heard reviews of their shows that are all over the place from horrible to pretty good.

3. Is it going to snow this weekend?

  1. lol, they're close enough in time that I think one thread can suffice, especially since the Friday one should be minor and the Sunday is a bit more likely to be a miss/minor hit than a major hit.
  2. Never saw Jesus & Mary Chain. Have friends who say they've historically been all over the place, as you said. Don't know anyone who has seen them very recently, though.
  3. Sure, somewhere...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Knight Shift
OK, back to the weather. Brief update/details below: minor event (a few inches?) likely Friday, probably no event on Sunday, and possibly significant event on Tuesday.

Models are pretty consistently showing a minor, but still possibly impactful snowfall, for most of the area on Friday morning with 1-4" ranges on the snowfall and the snow (and maybe some mix/rain near the coast, as temps are borderline for snow) likely to fall between 3 am and noon on Friday. If it's 1" of snow and it falls mostly after sunrise, it's largely mood flakes. If it's 3-4" of snow and it mostly falls before 9 am, that's a Friday morning mess on the roads, as snow will accumulate on non-treated roads, given decent snowfall rates, before the sun is up higher in the sky, and moderately falling snow is a visibility issue, also. Travel impacts should be done by noon in just about all scenarios with temps above 32F by then and less snow falling. Still not crystal clear where we'll be on this event yet, as it's still almost 72 hours out.

For the 2nd event on Sunday, models are nearing a consensus on a largely suppressed solution, bringing potentially decent snowfalls to NC/VA and possibly even the Chesapeake Bay area and maybe far SE NJ (Cape May) - no models are predicting much if any snow north of Cape May and some aren't even bringing snow north of a Richmond to OC MD line. The threat's not dead yet, as we're still 5 days out, but it's on life support.

Which brings us to the 3rd event, centered around Tuesday. This one is showing up as a major snowstorm on a couple of models and a modest one on a couple of others. I'm not going to post maps or get into amounts, as that's just nuts 7+ days out. This threat could end up being a dud, but it has good support, synoptically, with the receding polar vortex and -NAO, combined with a potent system tapping a lot of moisture/energy. Again, worth watching.

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/49755-march-model-discussion/?page=18
 
Last edited:
OK, back to the weather. Models are pretty consistently showing a minor, but still possibly impactful snowfall, for most of the area on Friday morning with 1-4" ranges on the snowfall and the snow (and maybe some mix/rain near the coast, as temps are borderline for snow) likely to fall between 3 am and noon on Friday. If it's 1" of snow and it falls mostly after sunrise, it's largely mood flakes. If it's 3-4" of snow and it mostly falls before 9 am, that's a Friday morning mess on the roads, as snow will accumulate on non-treated roads, given decent snowfall rates, before the sun is up higher in the sky, and moderately falling snow is a visibility issue, also. Travel impacts should be done by noon in just about all scenarios with temps above 32F by then and less snow falling. Still not crystal clear where we'll be on this event yet, as it's still almost 72 hours out.

For the 2nd event on Sunday, models are nearing a consensus on a largely suppressed solution, bringing potentially decent snowfalls to NC/VA and possibly even the Chesapeake Bay area and maybe far SE NJ (Cape May) - no models are predicting much if any snow north of Cape May and some aren't even bringing snow north of a Richmond to OC MD line. The threat's not dead yet, as we're still 5 days out, but it's on life support.

Which brings us to the 3rd event, centered around Tuesday. This one is showing up as a major snowstorm on a couple of models and a modest one on a couple of others. I'm not going to post maps or get into amounts, as that's just nuts 7+ days out. This threat could end up being a dud, but it has good support, synoptically, with the receding polar vortex and -NAO, combined with a potent system tapping a lot of moisture/energy. Again, worth watching.

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/49755-march-model-discussion/?page=18
@e5fdny
@bac2therac
:popcorn:
 
Well, this could be our last shot at some winter before spring takes hold. The hemispheric pattern is expected to develop high latitude ridging over Greenland (i.e., a "polar block" and a negative North Atlantic Oscillation index), which is highly conducive to cold and possible snow starting early Friday through about the end of next week, at least (beyond that is very far out and hard to predict, although climatology does not favor snow potential past about mid-March, although it's still possible). We're pretty much guaranteed to be mostly below normal in temperatures during this period and we're going to have multiple chances of winter storms, but there's no guarantee of any significant snow. Yet.

The first chance of some wintry precip is very early Friday morning, when it's possible we could get a bit of snow (or rain to snow) - at this point this is looking like a minor event with maybe 1-2" of snow being possible (and little to no snow is also possible). If the snow mostly falls before about 8 am, we could see some accumulations before the sun starts warming things above 32F - precip after that point could be snow or a mix to rain as temps warm above freezing.

A much bigger potential winter storm could hit on Sunday. This is still 5+ days out, so uncertainty is still quite high. There's almost certainly going to be a significant storm - the question, at this point, is whether the storm track brings it close enough to our area for a major snowfall or if it's suppressed far enough off the coast by the polar vortex for a minor snowfall near the coast (it should be cold enough for snow either way). Given that track errors this far out are over 150 miles and a track shift of <100 miles would likely make difference between little to no snow" and 6-10", for example, along the I-95 corridor in central/north Jersey, this storm bears watching.

Right now, the near miss is looking more likely, but the snowier solution cannot be ruled out as the "players" (the systems that will eventually form the storm) are still over the data sparse Pacific Ocean, meaning the model accuracy 5+ days out is low. In addition, the long range models show the cold/wintry pattern continuing through most of next week with 1 or 2 more chances for wintry precip - way too far out to speculate on them, but the key is the pattern here is full of potential, as many top pros have noted. Specifically, here's what Earthlight, one of the best out there, had to say about the pattern:

"We are bordering on KU-level (KU is a Kocin-Uccinelli storm indicative of major to historic snowstorms in the past) hemispheric evolution now on much of the medium range ensemble guidance as we move into the Day 5-10 period. Westward movement of vorticity from Greenland into the Davis Straight and Central Canada with a closed and/or notable polar block circulation have been known to preclude some of the more prolific Northeast US snowstorms on record. In addition, the elongation of the tropospheric polar vortex over Southeast Canada suggests that cold, well sourced high pressure systems will be meandering to our north over Northern New England and Southeastern Canada. An active Pacific pattern ensures multiple disturbances ejecting eastwards into this airmass."

Been talking about this for the last day or so in another thread and was urged to start a new thread, so if this doesn't pan out and produce any snow, y'all know who to blame, lol. And below is this morning's NWS Mt. Holly discussion on both the Friday morning and Sunday systems. It's really well done, highlighting the potential, but high uncertainty. Also included a link to the model discussion thread on AmericanWx.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...y-rain-s-of-78-some-mix-n-of-78.119226/page-2

A surge of colder air will likely occur late Thursday night into
Friday when winds turn northerly as Arctic high pressure starts
to build in from central Canada. An overrunning setup that
follows could potentially bring wintry precipitation to at least
a portion of the forecast area Thursday night into Friday as a
Pac NW disturbance is steered around the base of the broad
northern-stream trough, eventually making its way into the Mid-
Atlantic region. Forecast thermal profiles support a transition
from rain to snow from north to south with this event but the
devil is in the (timing) details. Forecast confidence for
snowfall accumulations and for pinpointing where a band of
potentially locally higher amounts could set up is limited due
to the complexity of this pattern that requires many ingredients
to come together at the right time to produce snowfall
accumulations. While there are a few outlier models that are indicating 3+
inches of snow, there is much more support for lesser
accumulations. Nonetheless, some impacts to the Friday morning
commute are possible, especially in eastern PA and NJ where an
earlier arrival of the cold air favors snow for the rush.

Arctic high pressure will continue to build southeastward into the
Great Lakes and Northeast region this weekend. Meanwhile, a more
potent Pac NW shortwave trough (relate to the Friday system) is
forecast to track east-southeastward across the Central/Northern
Plains and Midwest on Saturday. Models then continue to hint at some
degree of phasing between this Pac NW system and southern-stream
energy moving into the Southern Plains and northern Gulf Coast
states later in the weekend. The surface low is then forecast to
rapidly deepen as it progresses eastward across the Southeast states
Sunday. There is still a high degree of uncertainty regarding the
track of the low once it reaches the coast. The are two general
track scenarios: 1) the low takes a turn more northward and closer
to the Mid-Atlantic coast or 2) the low doesn`t make the turn
northward and instead moves quickly out to sea. The former would
require stronger phasing to occur farther upstream and increase our
threat at a significant late-season snow storm. Over the past few
runs, model support for the latter (i.e., a more surpressed storm
track) has increased. However, there continues to be a large spread
in guidance and with this event still 5-6 days out, there is still
plenty of opportunity for models to trend back northward over
the next few days. Therefore, only slight adjustments downward
to the PoPs were made for Sunday. It`s still worthy of
highlighting in the HWO with stress about high forecast
uncertainty. At this juncture, it`s best to continue monitoring
the forecast throughout the week. Regardless of the outcome, the
likelihood of well-below normal temperatures for this weekend
is high.

http://forecast.weather.gov/product...&format=CI&version=1&glossary=1&highlight=off

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/49755-march-model-discussion/?page=14
Did anyone actually read this ridiculously long post that can be summed up in 2 sentences? See Real's better thread.
 
My wife and daughter are heading for Florida on an 8 AM flight out of Newark Sunday for spring break. If weather becomes a problem and they can't get out, my life will be a living hell. Inf this happens I will hold #'s personally responsible and do everything I can to make him share my misery.

I know he's only the messenger but I have to blame someone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Knight Shift
A nice discussion by NWS Mt. Holly, below - calling for a solid 2-4" between about midnight and noon on Friday for most of Central/North Jersey and eastern PA; might only be 1-2" south of about 195/276. Similarly, the NWS in NYC is calling for 2-3" for NE NJ and NYC/LI metro areas, with a bit less north of the Tappan Zee.

Much of the snow should fall before the sun is up/strong and with temps around 32F before 9 am in the I-95 corridor from at least Trenton to NYC, allowing snow to accumulate, even on untreated paved surfaces (before about 9 am or so). NWS maps are screwed up right now, so will post later.

Temps will fall off into the 20s
north of I-80, and in the low to mid 30s across SE PA and much
of northern and central NJ. Across the Delmarva and extreme
southern NJ, lows will be around 40. As a result, as precip
spreads into the region, although there may be a quick shot of
some rain initially, precip will change to snow, mainly to the
north of I-95, after midnight.

Snow is likely to continue through Friday morning before
tapering off through the afternoon. Temps may rebound enough
south of I-95 to possibly briefly allow snow to change back to
rain before ending.

Based on forecasted liquid QPF, generally 1/4" to 1/3", and
snow ratios ranging from 10:1 to 15:1, came up with 2-4" for
northern and into central NJ, the Poconos, Lehigh Valley, mainly
areas along and north of I-76. For central and southern NJ,
generally 1-3", and less than an inch to no snow for extreme
southern NJ and the Delmarva.


http://forecast.weather.gov/product...&format=CI&version=1&glossary=1&highlight=off
 
there is a good possibility that those accumulations are for grassy only...its going to depend on how cold temps are to what sticks on the ground...and that is no sure bet right now....treated road surfaces should not be an issue at all with temps in the low 30s at worst
 
StormTotalSnowWeb1.png
 
there is a good possibility that those accumulations are for grassy only...its going to depend on how cold temps are to what sticks on the ground...and that is no sure bet right now....treated road surfaces should not be an issue at all with temps in the low 30s at worst

All depends on timing, intensity and temps. Temps should be in the mid-30s to start, after midnight, and we could definitely see snow only slowly accumulating then, especially on warmer paved surfaces. But assuming intensity picks up and the column cools a bit more to around 32F, I would think we'd see accumulations in the 5-8 am timeframe on all surfaces, except treated paved surfaces, which will only see accumulations if there is heavy snow falling and we're not supposed to get extended heavy snowfall at all with this storm. If we don't ever get good intensity and it stays at 33-34F, we might only see snow on the grass. Close call.

Could have some similarities to the 2/9 storm, which started as some rain/sleet with temps in the mid-30s after being 60+ the day before and went to snow as temps dropped in the wee hours and the snow only accumulated on colder surfaces for a couple of hours, before intensity and temps allowed accumulation on the roads up through sunrise.
 
Last night's models cut back a little on Friday morning's event, with a general 1-2" now being forecast by most. That likely means less intensity, which likely means this will be a snowfall that struggles to accumulate on any paved surfaces. Still time for the forecast to change some, as we're still 54 hours out (last night's models initialized at 0Z or 7 pm EST on Tues). Maps below and link to thread on American just below.

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/49792-march-10th-2017-clipper/?page=2

The Sunday event is essentially dead for our area - could be some light snow in Cape May/AC, but that's about it - will be an unusually potent almost spring snowstorm for much of NC/VA though with 4-10" possible.

The Mon night through Tuesday event is now looking like the main event for our area. Several models showing this to be a major winter storm with several inches or more of snow possible; could also be some mixing near the coast and even I-95. Still 6 days out, which is too far out to be posting maps, but need to watch this one closely, as the setup is textbook for a winter storm (but it could still be a miss).

And just for giggles, way off in the distance, there is a chance of wintry precip on St. Patty's Day. General pattern thread on AmericanWx is below.

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/49755-march-model-discussion/?page=20

StormTotalSnowWeb1.png


StormTotalSnowWeb1.png
 
Dan Zarrow 101.5 said this morning: North of 78 2-4 inches From 78 to 195 1-2 inches and south of 195 barely nothing.
 
Is the Monday/Tuesday storm coming up the coast or in from the west? Tuesday morning I'm driving west through PA to beautiful downtown Canton Ohio. I'm hoping for relatively smooth sailing.
 
Is the Monday/Tuesday storm coming up the coast or in from the west? Tuesday morning I'm driving west through PA to beautiful downtown Canton Ohio. I'm hoping for relatively smooth sailing.

If the storm develops as currently modeled, it'll be a "Miller B" meaning there would be a low pressure system approaching from the west, which then redevelops into a coastal system, which then comes up the coast. If that occurs, there will be decent snowfall Monday into Tuesday from Ohio through PA, meaning your drive might be a challenge.
 
If the storm develops as currently modeled, it'll be a "Miller B" meaning there would be a low pressure system approaching from the west, which then redevelops into a coastal system, which then comes up the coast. If that occurs, there will be decent snowfall Monday into Tuesday from Ohio through PA, meaning your drive might be a challenge.

That's what I feared...then it'll be a matter of taking the Rt. 80 northern route or the Pa. Tpk. southern route out there. Doesn't sound like either is a pleasant option at this time. Sign me up for voting for a bust, please.
 
you know we are not expecting much when the Americanwx weenies are not even talking about the potential for a 1-3 inch slopfest but instead focusing their attention on a storm 6 days away and posting weenie maps already showing 1-2 feet of snow..this will not end well for them
 
Model mayhem, lol. Friday's event is anywhere from 0-8" of snow (UK is at 5-10" for much of the area and alone in having more than 2-3"), wave 2 (Sunday) is dead, except for NC/VA and wave 3 (Tuesday) is anywhere from <1" to a foot or more, depending on the model. I get the large uncertainty for a Day 6-7 event, like Tuesday, but it's a bit disappointing to see so much uncertainty for Friday's event, 36-48 hours away. Stay tuned...
 
Model mayhem, lol. Friday's event is anywhere from 0-8" of snow (UK is at 5-10" for much of the area and alone in having more than 2-3"), wave 2 (Sunday) is dead, except for NC/VA and wave 3 (Tuesday) is anywhere from <1" to a foot or more, depending on the model. I get the large uncertainty for a Day 6-7 event, like Tuesday, but it's a bit disappointing to see so much uncertainty for Friday's event, 36-48 hours away. Stay tuned...


there really is no one predicting 5-10 inches or more than 5 or 8 so lets simmer down there...friday event is 0-4 basically and these temps are really marginal for some areas...some will cash into the north and west but good luck at temps that will be hard pressed to go below 32 with light intensity snows perhaps reaching moderate for a brief period
 
there really is no one predicting 5-10 inches or more than 5 or 8 so lets simmer down there...friday event is 0-4 basically and these temps are really marginal for some areas...some will cash into the north and west but good luck at temps that will be hard pressed to go below 32 with light intensity snows perhaps reaching moderate for a brief period
Just typical RU#'s wishcasting.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT