After watching the product on the field, do you think our S&C was improved this year?

[RUaMoose]

I lifted plenty of weight in my time and let me tell you an entire winter, spring and summer of intense training should result in noticeable improvements in S&C. I remember one summer during HS I did nothing but lift and eat hamburgers (protein!). Come September guys I hadn’t seen since early June were telling me left and right, “you big, dude”. This is like 2-2.5 months and I had no S&C coaches and no special nutritional program.

 

[rutgersal]

Parker walked in here and said the kids looked unfed and sickly. So look no further then the guys in charge in terms of questioning previous S&C's. And that was more then mere questioning, that was about as harsh as you can get.

And imo, when you say something like that, I do expect some pretty immediate results.

Well you're just going to have to learn to be more patient. Parker is a strength coach, he's not a magician. Our opponents have been doing things the right way for many years. We've been doing things the right way for one year. Given that we are at a talent disadvantage, S&C disadvantage, and coaching disadvantage, with many of our coaches in year 1 coaching at this level, it's easy to see why we didn't see immediate results. If you can't see it, than its on you.

 

[rutgersal]

I lifted plenty of weight in my time and let me tell you an entire winter, spring and summer of intense training should result in noticeable improvements in S&C. I remember one summer during HS I did nothing but lift and eat hamburgers (protein!). Come September guys I hadn’t seen since early June were telling me left and right, “you big, dude”. This is like 2-2.5 months and I had no S&C coaches

You achieved improvement relative to YOURSELF, you didn't have to compete with world class athletes who were lifting for 2,3,4,5 years. This is what makes it so difficult for us.

 

[newwavedave1]

Many players stated they were stronger and in better shape. That's good enough for me.

 

[RU-05]

Well you're just going to have to learn to be more patient. Parker is a strength coach, he's not a magician. Our opponents have been doing things the right way for many years. We've been doing things the right way for one year. Given that we are at a talent disadvantage, S&C disadvantage, and coaching disadvantage, with many of our coaches in year 1 coaching at this level, it's easy to see why we didn't see immediate results. If you can't see it, than its on you.

If we can admit this was a factor, and this 2-10 debacle of a season was not solely on the forehead of the previous regime, I'm more OK with the discussion.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Lot's of stupidity in this thread...not all but still lots. First, not a damn kid was starving under Flood. There were no sickly rib cages showing. That part of it was pure hype. Now, was Cole a good SC guy for a P5 program, it certainly didn't look like it. Does Parker have credentials...guys, that can't understand his credentials, well, that is part of the stupidity oin this thread. Who the F cares what his degree is in. He has an entire staff including nutritionists and everything else he needs. He is in year one, time will tell if he is good or not. But worrying about his degree when he was the Assistant at OSU? Stupid.
Did our players get stronger- hell, they would naturally get stronger regardless of who was the SC guy. He he getting them more "football strong"? Well, that does take a little more time. I don't think we got blew out because of strength this year. Not at all. I didn't see us miss tackles because we hit a guy with a perfect tackle, wrapped him up and had him through us off like we were nothing. When we wrapped, we brought them down. Our problem was angles, speed, not wrapping, etc.
On the OL - I would bet that each guy on the OL improved their personal best in every strength category. Some may think they saw our OL getting muscled around, I didn't see that. I saw confusion and lack of working together. This will sometimes make it look as if our guy just got bull rushed.
Personally, I thought Butler ran a great program. Cole, not so much. Parker, I think he will prove out to be very very good. And Moose- in this day in age, none of these guys are gaining muscle and strength with hamburgers as their protein.

 

[RU-05]

You achieved improvement relative to YOURSELF, you didn't have to compete with world class athletes who were lifting for 2,3,4,5 years. This is what makes it so difficult for us.

Our guys were lifting prior to Parker getting here. We actually won a couple games in conference prior to this year.

The sickly unfed team that quit in games under Flood and Cole actually won more games last year then this years team.

 

[JQRU91]

It's going to take at least 3 years to make this team big 10 strong, but it might take 5, because our opponents have had a head start in doing things the right way. Like I said before, it's not enough to get stronger, but we have to catch up to everyone else, and that will likely take time. We didn't just lose, we got killed.

Crying about tough schedules means nothing because tough schedules and well conditioned opponents are the new normal for us. It goes with the territory. This year, we were too easily fatigued and overpowered. As swami used to say, our linemen look like they're playing on roller skates. We need to win in the trenches and we lost in the trenches much of the time.

To evaluate an S&C coach after one year is just not fair. You don't undo years of neglect in one year. The problem wasn't so much the prior S&C program, but the intensity by which it was carried out. Had Schiano remained, this team would have been in much better shape.

Why would it take up to 5 years to catch up in S&C? The whole roster turns over in 5 years.

 

[RU-05]

As per hamburgers as protein source. If Moose was able to get noticeably bigger and stronger without a S&C while eating hamburgers, then guys with a S&C coach as well as nutritionists should see vastly superior improvement.

That only plays to his point.

 

[mildone]

Our guys were lifting prior to Parker getting here. We actually won a couple games in conference prior to this year.

The sickly unfed team that quit in games under Flood and Cole actually won more games last year then this years team.

You keep saying this. But what's your point? That because there was a win/loss difference season over season that Cole was better than Parker at S&C? There are a whole bunch of variables that can explain a win/loss difference from one season to the next that have little or nothing to do with S&C.

An incoming staff saying, publicly or otherwise, that they will do better than the prior staff is pretty normal when that prior staff was fired. Not sure why you think that's noteworthy enough to bring up.

 

[mildone]

As per hamburgers as protein source. If Moose was able to get noticeably bigger and stronger without a S&C while eating hamburgers, then guys with a S&C coach as well as nutritionists should see vastly superior improvement.

That only plays to his point.

It has not been shown that our players didn't get bigger and stronger. Nobody has introduced any evidence to support such a claim. Moose's point neither supports nor contradicts the belief that our players S&C improved over last year.

About the only way to truly know if our players got bigger and stronger is to compare the metrics (physical measurements). Using win/loss record, or game scores to identify S&C progress is ridiculous - there are just too many other variables that impact those things.

 

[rutgersal]

Why would it take up to 5 years to catch up in S&C? The whole roster turns over in 5 years.

thats precisely the point. the 2016 class would have been on even footing with our competitors, but every preceding class was at a disadvantage, hence the results we saw.

 

[rubaseball78]

S&C can make you bigger and stronger but every opponent is getting bigger and stronger too. If you start behind the 8 ball I'd guess it's pretty damned tough to catch up in just 7-8 months.

Even if the S&C was able to get close to catching up in a short time, the very obvious speed and talent difference would be a huge factor.

I don't get these posters questioning every S&C staff here over the past 10 years. First it was Butler, then Cole, now Parker? It's one of those abstract issues that seems to draw attention because it's easy to say and tough to disprove.

Sort of like the batting coach in baseball, team isn't hitting so it must be the batting coach.

 

[rutgersal]

Our guys were lifting prior to Parker getting here. We actually won a couple games in conference prior to this year.

The sickly unfed team that quit in games under Flood and Cole actually won more games last year then this years team.

we have NEVER been competitive with the best teams in the conference. Ohio State has blown our doors off three years in a row. Michigan has blown our doors off two straight years. Sparty has abused us two out of three years. Nebraska and Wisconsin ABUSED us. Penn State has ABUSED us two straight years. we beat Indiana twice and maryland once. yes we took a step back due to lack of talent and new coaches this year. it wasn't due to the S&C program.

 

[RUbarb Pi]

we have NEVER been competitive with the best teams in the conference. Ohio State has blown our doors off three years in a row. Michigan has blown our doors off two straight years. Sparty has abused us two out of three years. Nebraska and Wisconsin ABUSED us. Penn State has ABUSED us two straight years. we beat Indiana twice and maryland once. yes we took a step back due to lack of talent and new coaches this year. it wasn't due to the S&C program.

Rutgers' best team ever would maybe be middle of the pack in the Big Ten. A top-to- bottom upgrade will not happen overnight.

 

[theRU]

Well you can see players bodies changed drastically. And now we know that we're doing what other P5 programs do...To see the full results you'll need these guys to live in the program for 4 years.

 

[miketd1]

I agree the negative comments towards the previous regime weren't necessary and put Ash/Parker under the microscope for criticism.

That said, no amount of S&C was going to make Hester take better angles, Austin find the ball faster, Cioffi get lower/wrap up better, Laviano make quicker reads, the OL more agile on their feet, etc.

All of those things and a multitude of other issues (play calling, stale pretzels, etc.) contributed more to the poor record than Parker's S&C program.

 

[theRU]

I dont know why logic eludes many Rutgers fans on this board.

 

[KT8813]

On a similar note, Ash said this shortly after taking the job.

“I’m not here to judge what happened. I don’t really care. But I know this: I watched film on Rutgers last season, when I was sitting at Ohio State, and what I saw on film was a team that quit. When they were faced with adversity, they quit. That tells you there’s a problem. There’s a problem with the way they were trained, there’s a problem with the way they behaved, what they believe."


So both Ash and Parker came in here, trashed the previous coaches, and then coached this team up to a worse record on the field. And I don't know, but I think there were a couple games this season in which it could be said we didn't play a full 60 minutes of football.

Exactly, talk is cheap but apparently it works with most on this board! Ask guys like Brian Leonard about the previous staff. STAFF not just HSC! Check some of the certifications and degrees they have, not to mention individual accomplishments. Parker must have taken care of the under fed look because I saw a lot more beer guts this year than ever before!

 

[RU-05]

Well you can see players bodies changed drastically. And now we know that we're doing what other P5 programs do...To see the full results you'll need these guys to live in the program for 4 years.

We did?

 

[RUaMoose]

You achieved improvement relative to YOURSELF, you didn't have to compete with world class athletes who were lifting for 2,3,4,5 years. This is what makes it so difficult for us.

So you're saying these guys didn't lift/train before Ash and Parker showed up ? That's what is sounds like you are suggesting. Stop making excuses.

 

[RU-05]

You keep saying this. But what's your point? That because there was a win/loss difference season over season that Cole was better than Parker at S&C? There are a whole bunch of variables that can explain a win/loss difference from one season to the next that have little or nothing to do with S&C.

An incoming staff saying, publicly or otherwise, that they will do better than the prior staff is pretty normal when that prior staff was fired. Not sure why you think that's noteworthy enough to bring up.

1)Yes there are other variables, I am not laying this season wholly on the feet of Parker, OC get's a bunch of blame, STC get's that too, as does HC. but Ash talked up the importance of Parker when he came aboard, and Parker pretty harshly criticized previous regime. So why not expect the improvement in this department to show some level of on the field improvement?

2)It's noteworthy because Parker went to an extreme, and if your going to talk a big game, you better be prepared for criticism when you don't back that up. Unless he's one of those guys that likes to talk, but doesn't want similar criticism coming back at him. Can dish it out, or good for the goose type situation.

Bottom line, all the variables added in, we lost more games this season, then we did last season. We went backward in terms of record. That is the pudding into which I'm looking for proof.

 

[RU1993]

Parker hasn't even had one complete year to work with these kids. Cole also had a different type of program which was designed to create different results. So yes the kids where lifting last year but not worth the same goals they where challenged with this year.

 

[miketd1]

No doubt about it, we went backward this year on the field.

But even talking heads at NJ.com acknowledge that this was largely a mulligan year and note numerous positive changes off the field and in the football complex.

 

[RU-05]

I dont know why logic eludes many Rutgers fans on this board.

If the logic concludes with: S&C did not help us win more games this year then last year.

Then it has not eluded me at all.

 

[RU-05]

No doubt about it, we went backward this year on the field.

But even talking heads at NJ.com acknowledge that this was largely a mulligan year and note numerous positive changes off the field and in the football complex.

Agree fully.

I've said this a bunch, but these things do need to be repeated, I'm not looking to ax anyone. I'm not concluding Ash was a bad hire. But guys acting like there was proof of on the field improvement due to the new coaching staff? Or that we should not even think about criticizing the coaching staff because the situation they took over was that dreadful? Sorry but I am not seeing that.

 

[theRU]

If the logic concludes with: S&C did not help us win more games this year then last year.

Then it has not eluded me at all.

and we live in a world of constants since when? Logic has absolutely eluded you.

 

[RU-05]

It has not been shown that our players didn't get bigger and stronger. Nobody has introduced any evidence to support such a claim. Moose's point neither supports nor contradicts the belief that our players S&C improved over last year.

About the only way to truly know if our players got bigger and stronger is to compare the metrics (physical measurements). Using win/loss record, or game scores to identify S&C progress is ridiculous - there are just too many other variables that impact those things.

Moose's point was you can see a marked difference in 5 months time. Which was counter to another post that said 5 months is not enough time. The point about superior nutrition and coaching, and moose's relative lack of, would further support the idea of 5 months being enough time to see a difference.

 

[theRU]

Moose's point was you can see a marked difference in 5 months time. Which was counter to another post that said 5 months is not enough time. The point about superior nutrition and coaching, and moose's relative lack of, would further support the idea of 5 months being enough time to see a difference.

Assuming our new S&C program is on par with other Big10 programs, and assuming the new program is superior to our previous program, you are saying seniors who have had 4 or 5 years of proper training wouldnt have an advantage over our seniors who only had 5 months? And i'm supposed to believe that because Moose said so?

 

[theRU]

Agree fully.

I've said this a bunch, but these things do need to be repeated, I'm not looking to ax anyone. I'm not concluding Ash was a bad hire. But guys acting like there was proof of on the field improvement due to the new coaching staff? Or that we should not even think about criticizing the coaching staff because the situation they took over was that dreadful? Sorry but I am not seeing that.

Were you criticizing recruiting 4 years ago when it sucked in comparison to 5 years ago?

 

[RU-05]

and we live in a world of constants since when? Logic has absolutely eluded you.

Aight here is my argument. It's pretty simple.

P1)We had a new S&C coach in 2016.
P2)We won less games in 2016 then we did in 2015.

Conclusion: It can not be truthfully said that the new S&C coach helped us win more games in 2016 then we did in 2015

Is it unfair to expect your S&C coach to help win games? Is it unfair to think we were going to see an improvement in this department given how abysmal Parker said the players were when he arrived? Personally I don't think it unfair at all.

There are other arguments out there including one which states that other variables play into overall record, thus we can not pin the lesser win total on S&C and that is sound logic as well, it has not eluded me, in fact I agreed with that argument above.

So I don't think this has much to do with a grasp of logical arguments. It's about whether we think there was noticeable difference in S&C. Personally I saw no evidence of such.

 

[mildone]

1)Yes there are other variables, I am not laying this season wholly on the feet of Parker, OC get's a bunch of blame, STC get's that too, as does HC. but Ash talked up the importance of Parker when he came aboard, and Parker pretty harshly criticized previous regime. So why not expect the improvement in this department to show some level of on the field improvement?

2)It's noteworthy because Parker went to an extreme, and if your going to talk a big game, you better be prepared for criticism when you don't back that up. Unless he's one of those guys that likes to talk, but doesn't want similar criticism coming back at him. Can dish it out, or good for the goose type situation.

Bottom line, all the variables added in, we lost more games this season, then we did last season. We went backward in terms of record. That is the pudding into which I'm looking for proof.

Nobody can argue that we went backwards in terms of outcomes. It's the finger pointing and negative assumptions about the staff that I'm challenging. There are plenty of turnaround stories that take a few years in CFB. Each case is different, but it's still way too early to conclude anything specific about the staff beyond that they didn't manage to have as good a first season as everybody, including the staff I'm sure, had hoped.

Once we get into the details of why that is, people are going to be making all kinds of assumptions. And people's assumptions about the football program usually tell us more about the people making the assumptions then they do about the football program.

And again, I'm not convinced we aren't seeing an improvement in S&C on the field. Or that we are. Just too many variables to look at the outcomes and pin it on S&C either way. I'm not feeling driven to draw conclusions yet. Especially since Ash isn't going anywhere for at least another couple years.

As for Parker and criticism, I would be pretty surprised if he gives a shit about what a bunch of people who, absent the data that tells us how S&C compared year over year from 2015 to 2016, can't possibly know what they are talking about are saying about him.

 

[JQRU91]

thats precisely the point. the 2016 class would have been on even footing with our competitors, but every preceding class was at a disadvantage, hence the results we saw.

Okay, I get what you're saying.

 

[ScarletDave]

Given the little time we've had with Kenny Parker, and the strength of schedule we faced (and those OSU etc Linemen are monsters BEFORE they get to college), it would be like me going on the Special K diet today, and then entering the Strongest Man competition in 2 weeks. Doesn't mean it will never work down the road, but can't expect quick results from workouts to then work against an unbelievable schedule.

 

[mildone]

Moose's point was you can see a marked difference in 5 months time. Which was counter to another post that said 5 months is not enough time. The point about superior nutrition and coaching, and moose's relative lack of, would further support the idea of 5 months being enough time to see a difference.

Except Moose hasn't shown conclusively that we didn't see a difference. Judging solely from the outcomes is not sufficient evidence to conclude that our players aren't bigger and stronger.

 

[RU-05]

Assuming our new S&C program is on par with other Big10 programs, and assuming the new program is superior to our previous program, you are saying seniors who have had 4 or 5 years of proper training wouldnt have an advantage over our seniors who only had 5 months? And i'm supposed to believe that because Moose said so?

If the state of the previous S&C program was as bad as noted by Parker, and Parker runs a program on par with other B1G S&C's, ie vastly superior, then yes, even in only 5 months time, I would expect to see a noted difference. Not saying our guys should be as good as big and strong as guys at the elite schools in conference. But I would expect to see a marked improvement in our team in the department from last year to this.

 

[theRU]

If the state of the previous S&C program was as bad as noted by Parker, and Parker runs a program on par with other B1G S&C's, ie vastly superior, then yes, even in only 5 months time, I would expect to see a noted difference. Not saying our guys should be as good as big and strong as guys at the elite schools in conference. But I would expect to see a marked improvement in our team in the department from last year to this.

and completely disregard the changes in talent, both in the our opponents and within our own program....yes very logical.

Winning doesn't mean you got stronger. Winning doesn't mean you weren't winded at the end of the game. Those things will ultimately lead to better performance, however it will not solve our talent issues, or any mismatches which may result because of those deficiencies. a 5% improvement in strength, does not equal a 5 % improvement in scores or W-L.

I do not believe you are too stupid to see the faults in your own arguments, therefore i conclude you are simply trolling for the sake of trolling.

 

[RU-05]

Were you criticizing recruiting 4 years ago when it sucked in comparison to 5 years ago?

Yeah, when that class fell apart it that was a kick in the gut. And while we are at it, let's talk about pulling Nova, just to get it out of the way. Him playing the entirety of the Va Tech game was completely absurd.

So those are a few of my credentials. now lets get back to the argument at hand.

 

[ru75]

After watching the product on the field, do you think our S&C was improved this year?

Yep, if you watched closely. There were moments giving one hope for the future. Next year, the surprise will be to the upside.

 

[theRU]

Yeah, when that class fell apart it that was a kick in the gut. And while we are at it, let's talk about pulling Nova, just to get it out of the way. Him playing the entirety of the Va Tech game was completely absurd.

So those are a few of my credentials. now lets get back to the argument at hand.

Great... so you acknowledge recruiting was progressively worse... yet you expected better results than last year because of 5 months of S&C????!!!!!!!!!! So Leonte carroo who was probably single handedly responsible for 3 wins last year can be off set by S&C? COME ON MAN!