APP; Washington stunned by ASH's Punt Call

[wheezer]

No you don't, you have to create a game plan that allows you to win and then stick to it.
Anyone who is questioning these punts clear has no clue as to what there game plan was, which was obvious if you watched the game or listened to any of the post game comments.

----
a game plan should to try to advantage of a situation, if /when if arises.....you don't pass on an opportunity......we had the ball in their territory and we needed one yard

who is to say that you get another good chance later on?.... you can plan that you will get one later on, but you can't count on it.

a "game plan" should not pass up chances.

 

[knights1212]

I was upset that Ash didn't show any confidence in his team and go for it on both 4th and one calls. In fact I think we only needed a foot or less on both calls. We were picked to lose by like 30 points. What did we have to lose. We ran scared by not going for it.

 

[BoroKnight]

To throw a little perspective at you, knowing it's NOT precisely the same thing.

Back in 1985, some of you will remember, Rutgers trailed badly against Florida in the opener down in Gainesville. (Note, better team than Washington -- ranked No. 3 and would finish 9-1-1 -- and on the road.) We rally back to tie the game at 28-28 with I believe five minutes left. And Dick Anderson -- coincidentally a second-year coach -- calls for an ONSIDE KICK. On the road, against a highly favored opponent, at a time when we were all thrilled just to be tied (before college OT).

Some might say that was playing to win. Some might say it was crazy.

The game ended in a tie. I'm sure Rutgers fans were in a tizzy. We proceeded to go 2-8-1, beating only Richmond and Colgate.

OK, so maybe two lessons here.
1. You can justify punting AND going for it depending on which is more important -- protecting your team's fragile psyche (my choice) or playing to win.
2. DO NOT get too wrapped up in what happens in one game. Please. I'm begging here. We have 11 more games to hopefully get more excited. I'll choose a gradual progression.

 

[MoobyCow]

It was a tough call, could have went either way imo. We went for it later in the game and didn't convert.

It's not really though. Multiple studies show that punting on 4th down is very often a bad decision. Punting on 4th and inches near midfield is statistically speaking, an awful decision.

 

[bac2therac]

Disagree, i think his clock management was totally fine. Our starting qb is not capable of stretching the field and making those type of big play throws so you play for the fg and make sure UW has no chance to get the ball back.

Bolin is really limited due to his lack of arm strength, alot of the throws he makes are low risk, low reward. Or the out routes which are high risk low reward, were gonna see a pick 6 sooner than later on one of them. Grants TD was a GREAT throw but, 6 inches more away, pixk 6

clock management was bad...period....time was not managed because we had to spike the ball wasting a down...I believe RU had the ball with 3:40 or so to start...that is plenty of drive not only for a fg but for a td as well..it was poorly managed...you hardly want to be kicking a 46 yd fg in that situation, its not what they wanted clearly...also a possible monmentum shift was ruined

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

clock management was bad...period....time was not managed because we had to spike the ball wasting a down...I believe RU had the ball with 3:40 or so to start...that is plenty of drive not only for a fg but for a td as well..it was poorly managed...you hardly want to be kicking a 46 yd fg in that situation, its not what they wanted clearly...also a possible monmentum shift was ruined

I remember looking at the clock with like 2 mins left and then back up and saw only something like 29-30 and said WTF happened to the time (to my son)...shocked .

 

[BlockR]

Ash needs to lean on Kill heavily in some of these calls,as a fist time HC in the toughest conference in the Nation. Its good that Kill is actualy on the sidelines,not up in booth.

 

[stuw6]

---
this is not correct.... I thought the call was wrong as it happened.

I got up from my seats before the punt and yelled,"Ash is chicken sh1t, this game is over." I was halfway to the exit by the time the Huskies scored on that punt return. When you have a chance to take the game, you have to take it. Who the frigg cares about the final score. A loss is a loss is a loss. Rutgers finally has the chance to beat a top ten team for the first time in over a decade and they throw it away. Same old Rutgers. At least they didn't get blown out. Right?

 

[arigoldrutgers]

Too many morons on this thread have either forgotten or don't realize how horrible the blowout losses last year looked for our program. Ash's goal this game was to make us look competitive against a top national program in front of recruits and the rest of the country and his play calling did just that.

If you watched the post-game presser he specifically said that if he hadn't made those calls you all would paint him responsible for another blow out losses (potentially two more touchdowns) to start of the season.

 

[stuw6]

Ash would have looked much better had he won the game. You are making excuses.

 

[ruready07]

Part of Ash plan is playing not to get blown out. He knows how quick things have spiraled out of control in games for us last few years and how bad it made us look. I think he still does not think we have the horses to win now, but will in a year or two if we continue to recruit strong like he is. To do that have to just stay in games for now.

he told you his gameplan?

 

[wheezer]

Too many morons on this thread have either forgotten or don't realize how horrible the blowout losses last year looked for our program. Ash's goal this game was to make us look competitive against a top national program in front of recruits and the rest of the country and his play calling did just that.

If you watched the post-game presser he specifically said that if he hadn't made those calls you all would paint him responsible for another blow out losses (potentially two more touchdowns) to start of the season.

---
I would hope our coach is always trying to win a game that is still in reach.....

the keys words here are still in reach....

if the game was still winnable based on score and time left, and he was more interested in not winning, but minimizing a loss,
he would not be a very good coach.....IMO.....

you can think that line of thought is moronish...if you want.

 

[RUsojo]

Oh Boy Knight Shift the hate monger has a new writer to hate and spin reporting about!. Ash questionable play call on fourth down called out by another writer in APP today Sunday edition.. One decision turned tide in Rutgers Loss Also Ash was off base throwing Blame on punter who stood on back line of end zone and blasted a 55 yard punt but Vince O (who needs to go)special teams blew a great kick..Last season that same punt would have went went 29 yards..
http://www.app.com/story/sports/col...urned-tide-rutgers-loss-washington/624632001/

In the end, Rutgers ended up showing some very good signs and letting it slip away in the second half, losing 30-14.

But at one point felt like it might just end up as the upset by which all others would be measured On the Banks.

And there was one play that had some scratching their heads when it happened, and left and increasingly uneasy as things played out over the next quarter. Because by the time Rutgers regained its footing four minutes into the fourth quarter, the game was effectively over.
It’s a tough call, no doubt. But the Rutgers offense had looked pretty good up to this point, and this was a perfect chance to show some faith in the players. Let them stay on the field, get a yard and try to win the game.

Instead, the punt team came out, with Washington taking over at its own 17.

Why do you think the punter was not at fault for not directing his kick out of bounds as instructed? I'm sure you're smart enough to understand that how you go about stopping and return is not the same every punt. It actually sounds like you may not have known that, so consider the fact that your cover strategy is different depending on what you are trying to accomplish each punt. And before you say he crushed the kid he didn't. He was plain spoken when asked the question - he did not go overboard. Ryan Anderson would tell you the same thing. He has.

Second, "One decision turned the tide". Get the f*** out of here with that premise. Presumably you've played sports before. You still have to play the next down. Good teams, no matter what level of competition, put plays behind them and go out and attack the next one. To say one decision kept a 2 win team from beating a playoff team is beyond asanine.

The halftime clock management. It was VERY obvious the objective was to try to get to half without making a dumb mistake. Completely agree with plan of getting the last attempt of the half to put points on the board without giving Washington a chance to crush our soul.

At the time of the first punt we had not given up an offensive TD. Why give a short field to the offense. At the time of the second punt you had given up one offensive TD all game. Why give a short field to the offense?

The truth is there is no right or wrong answer when analyzing whether he should have gone for it or not. The circumstances dictate that both decisions have merit. In fact I would argue that you must be open to both options in order to be balanced. The worst thing someone can do in any aspect of life is to be RESULTS ORIENTED when making decisions. You make the best decision based on expected value - and you must understand your expected value changes if you continuously make the same decision - your expected value gets worse. There is more than once acceptable way to play a hand.

To kill Ash here is a clear example of having an ax to grind. To debate the decision is something different altogether. And in the end there is no right answer. But just remember, you have to get stopped on third down for there to be a decision to make on fourth down.

 

[76Scarlet]

Yeah well................I suppose you could say he should have gone for it but .....................come on. It was a toss up call. The game was not out of reach and I understand the strategy of giving Washington bad field position. Unfortunately the punt out of bounds did not work. But I can remember too many times with Rutgers teams going for it on 4th and having it backfire.

 

[G- RUnit]

Why do you think the punter was not at fault for not directing his kick out of bounds as instructed? I'm sure you're smart enough to understand that how you go about stopping and return is not the same every punt. It actually sounds like you may not have known that, so consider the fact that your cover strategy is different depending on what you are trying to accomplish each punt. And before you say he crushed the kid he didn't. He was plain spoken when asked the question - he did not go overboard. Ryan Anderson would tell you the same thing. He has.

Second, "One decision turned the tide". Get the f*** out of here with that premise. Presumably you've played sports before. You still have to play the next down. Good teams, no matter what level of competition, put plays behind them and go out and attack the next one. To say one decision kept a 2 win team from beating a playoff team is beyond asanine.

The halftime clock management. It was VERY obvious the objective was to try to get to half without making a dumb mistake. Completely agree with plan of getting the last attempt of the half to put points on the board without giving Washington a chance to crush our soul.

At the time of the first punt we had not given up an offensive TD. Why give a short field to the offense. At the time of the second punt you had given up one offensive TD all game. Why give a short field to the offense?

The truth is there is no right or wrong answer when analyzing whether he should have gone for it or not. The circumstances dictate that both decisions have merit. In fact I would argue that you must be open to both options in order to be balanced. The worst thing someone can do in any aspect of life is to be RESULTS ORIENTED when making decisions. You make the best decision based on expected value - and you must understand your expected value changes if you continuously make the same decision - your expected value gets worse. There is more than once acceptable way to play a hand.

To kill Ash here is a clear example of having an ax to grind. To debate the decision is something different altogether. And in the end there is no right answer. But just remember, you have to get stopped on third down for there to be a decision to make on fourth down.

Really? Not even the pros do directional kicks out of their own end zone. Get it out of there as high and as far as possiible. If it had been blocked... Helluva kick and lousy coverage. Learned nothing from last year,

 

[BlockR]

Too many morons on this thread have either forgotten or don't realize how horrible the blowout losses last year looked for our program. Ash's goal this game was to make us look competitive against a top national program in front of recruits and the rest of the country and his play calling did just that.

If you watched the post-game presser he specifically said that if he hadn't made those calls you all would paint him responsible for another blow out losses (potentially two more touchdowns) to start of the season.

yes..play to make it a close loss!
YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

In a game where the turning point of the game occurred because of a punt downed at the 1 I find it fascinating that Ash would get killed by his decisions. No doubt you can debate it, but anything more than a mild disagreement is over the top.

 

[Arizona Knight]

I got up from my seats before the punt and yelled,"Ash is chicken sh1t, this game is over." I was halfway to the exit by the time the Huskies scored on that punt return.

Stop bragging.

 

[Knight Shift]

If RU went for it, it was 50/50 on whether they would have made it.
Temple went for it against Notre Dame with this result.

BTW, Temple controlled the ball too (34 minutes on TOP) and lost 49-16 Hindsight is 20/20:

• 4th and 1 at 50
  (9:36 - 4th) Ryquell Armstead run for a loss of 1 yard to the Temp 34 Ryquell Armstead fumbled, forced by Greer Martini, recovered by NDame Drue Tranquill , return for 15 yds to the Temp 34
  

• 1st and 10 at TEM 34
  (8:11 - 4th) Brandon Wimbush sacked by Quincy Roche for a loss of 6 yards to the Temp 40
  
  
• 2nd and 16 at TEM 40
  (8:11 - 4th) Brandon Wimbush run for 24 yds to the Temp 16 for a 1ST down
  
  
• 1st and 10 at TEM 16
  (8:11 - 4th) TEMPLE Penalty, personal foul (Karamo Dioubate) to the Temp 8 for a 1ST down
  
  
• 1st and Goal at TEM 8
  (8:11 - 4th) Brandon Wimbush sacked by Delvon Randall for a loss of 1 yard to the Temp 9
  
  
• 2nd and Goal at TEM 9
  (8:11 - 4th) Brandon Wimbush pass complete to Alize Mack for 8 yds to the Temp 1
  
  
• (5:54 - 4th) Timeout NOTRE DAME, clock 05:54
  
  
• 3rd and Goal at TEM 1
  (5:54 - 4th) Josh Adams run for no gain to the Temp 1
  
  
• 4th and Goal at TEM 1
  (5:44 - 4th) Josh Adams run for 1 yd for a TD, (Justin Yoon KICK)
  

 

[arigoldrutgers]

yes..play to make it a close loss!
YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

Yes but I believe Ash is playing chess not checkers. You play to win the game but you're also playing to win bigger games in the future.

 

[miketd1]

If we pin them on the 1 (like they did to us, 2x), and then get a quick three-and-out, we get a short field. If we then get a quick TD as a result of the field position, Ash looks like a genius.

Ash is a former defensive coordinator and his defense was standing up and making plays. Conversely, as Kill mentioned in his post-game presser, the offense had difficulty converting 3rd and short all night.

I'm sure these things factored into his decision.

 

[IMARUFAN]

Was there another punt on 4th and 1 from the Washington 44 yard line that I'm missing?

Because the only one I recall was with 12:04 left in the 3rd quarter of a 3 point game that had been, to that point, a defensive slugfest. There is not a coach in the NFL that wouldn't punt in that situation. And it is absolutely the right call. A proverbial no brainer. Unless I'm missing something, I can't believe this is even a discussion.

 

[MoobyCow]

If we pin them on the 1 (like they did to us, 2x), and then get a quick three-and-out, we get a short field. If we then get a quick TD as a result of the field position, Ash looks like a genius.

Ash is a former defensive coordinator and his defense was standing up and making plays. Conversely, as Kill mentioned in his post-game presser, the offense had difficulty converting 3rd and short all night.

I'm sure these things factored into his decision.

Is it a higher percentage chance that they get pinned on the 1 than us converting 4th and inches?

 

[miketd1]

Is it a higher percentage chance that they get pinned on the 1 than us converting 4th and inches?

I hear you, but what about Rutgers' actual 3rd and short conversion rate in the game? It was so bad that Kill lamented it in his presser and said that he was going to put a lot more focus in that area.

In my heart, I would have gone for it personally, but I don't think it was such a clear cut decision as some are making it out to be. It was more 50/50 in my mind.

 

[MoobyCow]

I hear you, but what about Rutgers' actual 3rd and short conversion rate in the game? It was so bad that Kill lamented it in his presser and said that he was going to put a lot more focus in that area.

In my heart, I would have gone for it personally, but I don't think it was such a clear cut decision as some are making it out to be. It was more 50/50 in my mind.

Our 3rd down plays:
3-3 - pass incomplete
3-2 - pass 5 yds
3-7 - pass incompete
3-10 - run loss 1 yd
3-1 run for 3 yds
3-10 pass 12 yds
3-1 run, no gain (right before the punt from the 44). Really this was a gain of less than 1 yd, but the same amount would have given us a 1st on 4th down.
3-4 pass 4 yds, 1st down
3-2 run 1 yard
3-7 INT
3-4 pass 11 yds
3-3 run -1 yds
3-3 run 1 yd
3-10 pass 21 yds

So, up until that made that choice we had a grand total of 4 3rd and short plays, and converted two of them. One for two on runs, but both of those 2 runs gained enough that they would have worked on 4th and inches.

IMO, the reason it becomes clear cut isn't that you're so likely to make it, it is that the actual difference in expected points between Washington getting the ball on the 44 and Washington getting the ball around the 20 or so (most likely punt outcome) is pretty damn small.

 

[miketd1]

Our 3rd down plays:
3-3 - pass incomplete
3-2 - pass 5 yds
3-7 - pass incompete
3-10 - run loss 1 yd
3-1 run for 3 yds
3-10 pass 12 yds
3-1 run, no gain (right before the punt from the 44). Really this was a gain of less than 1 yd, but the same amount would have given us a 1st on 4th down.
3-4 pass 4 yds, 1st down
3-2 run 1 yard
3-7 INT
3-4 pass 11 yds
3-3 run -1 yds
3-3 run 1 yd
3-10 pass 21 yds

So, up until that made that choice we had a grand total of 4 3rd and short plays, and converted two of them. One for two on runs, but both of those 2 runs gained enough that they would have worked on 4th and inches.

IMO, the reason it becomes clear cut isn't that you're so likely to make it, it is that the actual difference in expected points between Washington getting the ball on the 44 and Washington getting the ball around the 20 or so (most likely punt outcome) is pretty damn small.

Like I said, I would have gone for it. I would have trotted out a spread formation that looked like an RPO but with a predetermined give to Gus.

And the expected points takes all data points into consideration, but really there's a difference between running behind Alabama's line and a smaller school's. The match-ups matter more than the statistics, IMO.

That said, I like Gus and our line in that situation, but I stick to my main point that it's not very cut and dry.

By the way, I appreciate your statistics-based approach to your comments.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

clock management was bad...period....time was not managed because we had to spike the ball wasting a down...I believe RU had the ball with 3:40 or so to start...that is plenty of drive not only for a fg but for a td as well..it was poorly managed...you hardly want to be kicking a 46 yd fg in that situation, its not what they wanted clearly...also a possible monmentum shift was ruined

We had bad field position to start that drive. and we had to be thinking more about running clock than driving and scoring. But during the drive we found ourselves in possible scoring territory. I think if we went in there with the classic 2-minute drill mindset.. maybe we don't even get a first down and we punt and they have another shot.

Now.. we can argue about when we should be aggressive near the end of halves and when to be cautious.. but since we were getting the ball and had just given up a punt return TD from deep in our territory.. I think setting the goal of the final drive was to make it the final drive and run clock.. was a REASONABLE decision given the starting field position.

 

[wheezer]

Was there another punt on 4th and 1 from the Washington 44 yard line that I'm missing?

Because the only one I recall was with 12:04 left in the 3rd quarter of a 3 point game that had been, to that point, a defensive slugfest. There is not a coach in the NFL that wouldn't punt in that situation. And it is absolutely the right call. A proverbial no brainer. Unless I'm missing something, I can't believe this is even a discussion.

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this line of thought would be fine if the two teams were evenly matched.....we were severely at a disadvantage..... we cannot assume that we were going to remain in a defensive standstill.....if you thought we would, well, we see that it did not remain that way

chances are, Washington gets stronger, we weaker, the deeper you go into the game

being at a disadvantage, you take a chance.....it doesn't have to be a, go by the book decision..

as I had posted previously, RU already had converted 5 short yardage first downs, where we were lined up for a run, and
Washington expecting a run....

it would have been worth the risk.....what some are doing is trying to defend a decision that we can now know did not work out well

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Too many morons on this thread have either forgotten or don't realize how horrible the blowout losses last year looked for our program. Ash's goal this game was to make us look competitive against a top national program in front of recruits and the rest of the country and his play calling did just that.

If you watched the post-game presser he specifically said that if he hadn't made those calls you all would paint him responsible for another blow out losses (potentially two more touchdowns) to start of the season.

pardon? Washington scored a TD and A FG direct possessions after those punts. Keeping the ball and perhaps getting 3pts... makes the game a whole lot closer...we score and they don't. I may be a moron but the comments above moronic. That may have been his plan going in but if he didn't see the chance to win as it developed..well then who's the moron?

 

[Miggins]

By any objective analysis we should have gone for it. Even if we were the favorite playing conservative ball. Given we are the underdog, likely at a talent disadvantage, all the more reason to go for it. I am not killing Chris for it, a lot of positives about the game and his coaching ability, but this should have been a no brainer. It was a move of a team trying not to get blown out, but realistically we had a good shot at that point in the game

 

[arigoldrutgers]

pardon? Washington scored a TD and A FG direct possessions after those punts. Keeping the ball and perhaps getting 3pts... makes the game a whole lot closer...we score and they don't. I may be a moron but the comments above moronic. That may have been his plan going in but if he didn't see the chance to win as it developed..well then who's the moron?

Right, but hindsight is 20/20. He had no way of knowing at that point whether Washington was going to score on the subsequent drive, so he played to minimize damage. If he had gone for it, turned the ball over, and then they had scored, you would all be calling for his head.

 

[MYHATINTHERING]

can't believe that people are still can't believe that people are still defending this decision. Look, we saw last year that he doesn't make adjustments or slow to do so. We should have expected him to learn from last year and clearly he didn't. Saying that he had a game plan and he was sticking to it is retarded because his game plan was not to win the game evidently

 

[yesrutgers01]

I got up from my seats before the punt and yelled,"Ash is chicken sh1t, this game is over." I was halfway to the exit by the time the Huskies scored on that punt return. When you have a chance to take the game, you have to take it. Who the frigg cares about the final score. A loss is a loss is a loss. Rutgers finally has the chance to beat a top ten team for the first time in over a decade and they throw it away. Same old Rutgers. At least they didn't get blown out. Right?

I'm confused...sooooo, if I read this right, Ash decided to punt on 4th down with the ball on like our 1 or 2 yd line and you stand up and yell "Ash is chicken sit, this game is over"???? because if you were actually halfway to the exit when the punt was returned, that had to be the play you are referring to.

Or did I read that wrong? Anyway you look at it, I hope the turnstile didn't hit your ass too hard on the way out.

 

[RU1977]

I felt very nervous when we had the ball starting at our own one yard line - twice!!!

I felt fine with punting on 4th and one

 

[wheezer]

Right, but hindsight is 20/20. He had no way of knowing at that point whether Washington was going to score on the subsequent drive, so he played to minimize damage. If he had gone for it, turned the ball over, and then they had scored, you would all be calling for his head.

----
I hope that those who supported going for it on 4th down would not come on the board and blast trying it if it failed....I certainly would not have.....

I have seen RU try a fourth down conversion, a failed fake punt, and have never said a word against it if I thought it was the time to try it

 

[willisneverrana43]

I wanted RU to go for it. But to focus on this call as the basis for a broad opinions about Ash, whose team showed vast improvement, is boneheaded.

 

[IL Lusciato]

I think many thought it was the wrong call as the put team jogged out, b/c we booed at that moment. The game was going pretty well and we were pumped. One or two passes and WU was right back where they would have taken over on downs. We should know with an offense like that, that it was bound to break eventually. At the same time, our D was playing well, so it was not the worst call ever. Still disagree with it. You have to have the "feel" of the game when you make those calls, and I think he got it wrong. It didn't feel like a defensive struggle, it felt like we were holding them and no one knew for how long, and that we could also move the ball and if we got in the endzone, the game becomes back and forth rather than what it did.

 

[IL Lusciato]

It's not really though. Multiple studies show that punting on 4th down is very often a bad decision. Punting on 4th and inches near midfield is statistically speaking, an awful decision.

didn't know this. But it makes me think of the Pats and BB. They seem to go for it much more than other teams at regular parts of a game, and it seems to work.

 

[IL Lusciato]

----
this line of thought would be fine if the two teams were evenly matched.....we were severely at a disadvantage..... we cannot assume that we were going to remain in a defensive standstill.....if you thought we would, well, we see that it did not remain that way

chances are, Washington gets stronger, we weaker, the deeper you go into the game

being at a disadvantage, you take a chance.....it doesn't have to be a, go by the book decision..

as I had posted previously, RU already had converted 5 short yardage first downs, where we were lined up for a run, and
Washington expecting a run....

it would have been worth the risk.....what some are doing is trying to defend a decision that we can now know did not work out well

THIS. The poster you replied to mistook the game as a defensive slug fest. Not what it was. We were essentially holding back the imminent breach of a dam, not going toe to toe as two epic defensive ball teams. Some don't see that.

 

[asgot]

----
a game plan should to try to advantage of a situation, if /when if arises.....you don't pass on an opportunity......we had the ball in their territory and we needed one yard

who is to say that you get another good chance later on?.... you can plan that you will get one later on, but you can't count on it.

a "game plan" should not pass up chances.

ok, but at the time it wasn't. That is all I am saying.