Best play of the game....

[Greene Rice FIG]

Mike Williams guards Swanigan in the 2nd half. Swanigan posts up and Mike makes an effort to front Swanigan and succeeds. They attempt to still throw the ball over Williams in to Swanigan and he steals it.

A pure effort play.

2 ways to deal with length and talent discrepancy
1. Accept it
2. Work harder and overcome it

1. box out on the defensive end
2. pressure guards and wings so entry pass isn't easy
3. front the post the best you can and make the opponent execute a lob pass
4. if you are going to give up get offensive rebounds (understandable strategy) you can't also get beat down the floor.

 

[Section114]

love the insight!

 

[TobyTyler1]

it was a horrible pass . he jumped up and literally caught it.

Mike Williams always gives effort both ends agree with this, but he's a dreadful shooting guard at this level.

 

[jellyman]

love the insight!

With all due respect to FIG, it is bullspit that his post has insight about what RU can actually do.

Sure, that play was a great effort play. But when you have 6'2" against 6'9" 250, effort can only go so far, and can only work occasionally.

So, let me give "insight" to the insight you say FIG puts forward:

1. box out on the defensive end: Well ... RU DID box out at times, maybe even a lot ... but even when RU did box out, Purdue went right over the top of the much smaller RU players. Plus, when you box out hard against much taller and larger players, that also means you are pinned under the basket and unable to get LONG rebounds ... Purdue had at least 8 offensive rebounds that were "long" rebounds, and RU players were boxing out Purdue's frontcourt, but pinned and that left the long rebounds free to grab long rebounds just under the foul line.

2. pressure guards and wings so entry pass isn't easy: Easy to say, harder to do ... RU was actually doing a little of that early in the game, but Purdue was using its 6'8" WF and 6'6" 2G to throw over the 6'2" RU wing defenders ... it is hard to pressure players who are 4" to 6" taller than your defenders. As a result, Purdue was getting so many easy one on one post moves that RU changed to try to double HARD onto the post players. Then with the hard double team, that left wide open wing players to take uncontested 3's. And in the subsequent scramble to rotate, that substantially reduces defenders' abilities to box out effectively (since everyone is in motion scrambling to get to an open player - harder to find the right guy to box out).

3. front the post the best you can and make the opponent execute a lob pass: RU was trying, but when you are 6'2" to 6'4" covering not just players 6" to 8" taller, but also 40 to 70 pounds heavier and stronger, that is literally not possible ... unless you think the other team also does not try. The other team's players are also working to get and then maintain position, you know. I play post defense in pick up ball, and it is extremely hard work for me to get and maintain defensive positioning, even when I am playing against players just 1" to 2" and 20 pounds heavier than I am ... it is exhausting, actually. Now, sure the RU players are in much much superior physical condition than I am. But they are also paying against players vastly superior to the players I have to defend. IT IS JUST NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for 6'2" guys to defend 6'9"+ guys in the post more than just occasionally.

4. if you are going to give up get offensive rebounds (understandable strategy) you can't also get beat down the floor: Getting beaten down the floor after an RU missed shot on offense was not the major issue for RU in this game. There were times this happened, true, but this was not the major problem. I did notice that there were a number of times that RU players ended up on the floor under the basket after a miss ... maybe that was why RU occasionally had problems getting back on defense: Because RU's undersized players tried to take the ball to the basket, and tried to crash the offensive boards, but were so under-sized they were not able to succeed, and were in fact put on the floor despite all efforts, thus leaving them out of position in transition. But, again, this was not the major problem in this particular game, in my opinion. Besides, I did not notice that RU pursued a STRATEGY of giving up getting offensive rebounds. I think RU tried (I noticed Foreman and Williams being particularly persistent on the offensive boards), but was unable to combat the size differential.

I am not trying to defend Jordan here ... not directly. And I have posted about areas that I believe critics of Jordan have plenty of ammunition with which to bombard us.

But it is ridiculous to think there is ANY actual strategy that could be used, or successfully executed, to allow the RU team to compete more effectively with the current roster of healthy players.

The only way to offset having just 6 fully healthy players (plus 1 player who is limited to 20 minutes a game), and just 1 fully healthy player over 6'4" (if Foreman is even fully healthy), is not "effort." It is making shots, especially 3-point shots. You make 3-pointers, you eliminate the need to get offensive rebounds, and you eliminate getting beaten in transition. You make 3-point shots, you offset the points the other team can score against you on their end, because they are simply bigger and stronger than your team is. You make 3-pointers, and it helps with your own team's energy level (heck you make ANY shots and it helps energy level). Unfortunately, RU does not have ANY consistent knock-down 3-point shooters ... and to even be competitive over the course of multiple games when you are so short-handed in the front court the way RU is, you probably need at least TWO or maybe even THREE good 3-point shooters (because in some games at least 1 shooter is likely to be cold). You can blame that on Jordan, if you want. But that does not help the team NOW.

That is the only insight that can be drawn.

 

[80RU]

With all due respect to FIG, it is bullspit that his post has insight about what RU can actually do.

Sure, that play was a great effort play. But when you have 6'2" against 6'9" 250, effort can only go so far, and can only work occasionally.

So, let me give "insight" to the insight you say FIG puts forward:

1. box out on the defensive end: Well ... RU DID box out at times, maybe even a lot ... but even when RU did box out, Purdue went right over the top of the much smaller RU players. Plus, when you box out hard against much taller and larger players, that also means you are pinned under the basket and unable to get LONG rebounds ... Purdue had at least 8 offensive rebounds that were "long" rebounds, and RU players were boxing out Purdue's frontcourt, but pinned and that left the long rebounds free to grab long rebounds just under the foul line.

2. pressure guards and wings so entry pass isn't easy: Easy to say, harder to do ... RU was actually doing a little of that early in the game, but Purdue was using its 6'8" WF and 6'6" 2G to throw over the 6'2" RU wing defenders ... it is hard to pressure players who are 4" to 6" taller than your defenders. As a result, Purdue was getting so many easy one on one post moves that RU changed to try to double HARD onto the post players. Then with the hard double team, that left wide open wing players to take uncontested 3's. And in the subsequent scramble to rotate, that substantially reduces defenders' abilities to box out effectively (since everyone is in motion scrambling to get to an open player - harder to find the right guy to box out).

3. front the post the best you can and make the opponent execute a lob pass: RU was trying, but when you are 6'2" to 6'4" covering not just players 6" to 8" taller, but also 40 to 70 pounds heavier and stronger, that is literally not possible ... unless you think the other team also does not try. The other team's players are also working to get and then maintain position, you know. I play post defense in pick up ball, and it is extremely hard work for me to get and maintain defensive positioning, even when I am playing against players just 1" to 2" and 20 pounds heavier than I am ... it is exhausting, actually. Now, sure the RU players are in much much superior physical condition than I am. But they are also paying against players vastly superior to the players I have to defend. IT IS JUST NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for 6'2" guys to defend 6'9"+ guys in the post more than just occasionally.

4. if you are going to give up get offensive rebounds (understandable strategy) you can't also get beat down the floor: Getting beaten down the floor after an RU missed shot on offense was not the major issue for RU in this game. There were times this happened, true, but this was not the major problem. I did notice that there were a number of times that RU players ended up on the floor under the basket after a miss ... maybe that was why RU occasionally had problems getting back on defense: Because RU's undersized players tried to take the ball to the basket, and tried to crash the offensive boards, but were so under-sized they were not able to succeed, and were in fact put on the floor despite all efforts, thus leaving them out of position in transition. But, again, this was not the major problem in this particular game, in my opinion. Besides, I did not notice that RU pursued a STRATEGY of giving up getting offensive rebounds. I think RU tried (I noticed Foreman and Williams being particularly persistent on the offensive boards), but was unable to combat the size differential.

I am not trying to defend Jordan here ... not directly. And I have posted about areas that I believe critics of Jordan have plenty of ammunition with which to bombard us.

But it is ridiculous to think there is ANY actual strategy that could be used, or successfully executed, to allow the RU team to compete more effectively with the current roster of healthy players.

The only way to offset having just 6 fully healthy players (plus 1 player who is limited to 20 minutes a game), and just 1 fully healthy player over 6'4" (if Foreman is even fully healthy), is not "effort." It is making shots, especially 3-point shots. You make 3-pointers, you eliminate the need to get offensive rebounds, and you eliminate getting beaten in transition. You make 3-point shots, you offset the points the other team can score against you on their end, because they are simply bigger and stronger than your team is. You make 3-pointers, and it helps with your own team's energy level (heck you make ANY shots and it helps energy level). Unfortunately, RU does not have ANY consistent knock-down 3-point shooters ... and to even be competitive over the course of multiple games when you are so short-handed in the front court the way RU is, you probably need at least TWO or maybe even THREE good 3-point shooters (because in some games at least 1 shooter is likely to be cold). You can blame that on Jordan, if you want. But that does not help the team NOW.

That is the only insight that can be drawn.

I agree with everything you said on the defense end. And I am amazed that some people don't see some of this. No one could coach their way out of the problem on the defensive end. Your analysis is proven out by the fact that Purdue made most of their threes when Jordan changed the strategy and began to double down. I only partially agree with you on the offense of end. The huge size differential allows the opponent to close out on the perimeter shooters aggressively because penetration is no longer an issue.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The answer is somewhere in between. I know that and you know that. I appreciate your well thought out response.

RU right now has a defeatist attitude and it starts with the coach. They know they can't compete and they are saying it. I'd just like to see more fight...more like the play I referenced.

We have a 30 second shot clock...have to make the offense work a little harder.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Question Jelly.....Is there anything you would have done differently than Eddie? I saw we went a possession 1-3-1 and a few with our terrible 2-3ish type of zone. Why are we so bad playing that zone? It is more than size, although size is the primary answer.

 

[80RU]

The answer is somewhere in between. I know that and you know that. I appreciate your well thought out response.

RU right now has a defeatist attitude and it starts with the coach. They know they can't compete and they are saying it. I'd just like to see more fight...more like the play I referenced.

We have a 30 second shot clock...have to make the offense work a little harder.

With respect to effort, smaller players guarded the post the same way that Williams did on numerous occasions – – you just didn't notice it because there was not a poor entry pass to pick off. I think the analysis from Jelly was spot on.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

With respect to effort, smaller players guarded the post the same way that Williams did on numerous occasions – – you just didn't notice it because there was not a poor entry pass to pick off. I think the analysis from Jelly was spot on.

NO...to me there was not enough or no effort to FRONT the post. If you want to make the argument that a 6'1'' 190 lb guy trying to front a 270 pounder isn't going to happen and the entry pass will come in before the FRONT could I'd understand that.

I do NOT recall more than 1 time where a LOB pass thrown over the top of a fronted defender. There was a few high lows when we were in our zone

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

NO...to me there was not enough or no effort to FRONT the post. If you want to make the argument that a 6'1'' 190 lb guy trying to front a 270 pounder isn't going to happen and the entry pass will come in before the FRONT could I'd understand that.

I do NOT recall more than 1 time where a LOB pass thrown over the top of a fronted defender. There was a few high lows when we were in our zone

I don't know what game some of these guys were watching. Your example is the 1 and ONLY time I saw a rutgers player front the bigs. Time after time after time they ran down , hopped to a spot center of the lane, caught the ball 5 feet from the rim, turned and scored. Even when Lewis was in the game. No way these guards were going to body those monsters out of the lane or off the block. They needed to establish position way before Purdue's guys got down there.

Denying the ball? Not at Rutgers. Lost cause, perhaps. But would have been nice to see the change of plans and effort to try. THAT's my issue.

Rutgers players crashing the boards? Really? Williams..ok. The rest were running back before the shot got to the rim.

 

[jellyman]

To be clear (I think FIG got it), while I do not agree with FIG's analysis, my post was NOT criticizing FIG, but rather the poster who flagged FIG's post as full of "insight." A fine distinction, maybe, but important in my mind ... I like FIG's postings and analysis a LOT over the years, even when we disagree.

Now, to the issue of denying the ball ... I saw Williams, Grier and Goode TRY to front a LOT during the game, when they were forced to try to cover the 6'9" and taller players that the match-ups forced them to cover. They were just not able to HOLD the fronting position. In particular, Purdue's 6'9" 250 freshman PF and their 7'2" back-up center just jockeyed the attempted "fronting" away like the players defending them were gnats ... which they kind of were. After all, you can start by fronting, but if the other player is SO much bigger or stronger, it does not take much effort to rather quickly own your position on the floor. I also so a number of examples of the RU smaller players trying to push the Purdue big players away form the basket to receive the ball, and to in THAT position (like 12-15 feet from the basket), to deny them the ball at that time. And there were a few of occasions that did happen - but also Purdue DID do a nice job getting the ball to those taller players 12-15 from the basket, looping passes over the defender. In those cases, the bigger players now had the ball 12 feet from the basket, with no one between them and the rim, except for a rotating defender. This did also happen with Purdue's 6'8" WF and Purdue's 6'5" and 6'6" 2G and WF's, a few times (being covered by a 6'2" RU guard).

In personal experience, in defending post players taller and stronger than myself, I find I have to constantly jockey, alternating between full fronting, 3/4 fronting, and playing in back of the offensive player. Only by constantly CHANGING what I try to do, second by second, can I have any hope of keeping the offensive player off balance enough to defend. BUT ... I play in pick-up games, not organized (while team defense is better in organized games, so is team offense). Also, just last week I was forced to cover a guy 6'6" and about 240 pounds - a pure post player, and a very strong offensive rebounder - I am 6'0" tall and about 180 pounds. I have covered him before and know ALL his tendencies and abilities. Despite all my efforts, I was almost NEVER able to hold a fronting defensive position - and as poor a player as I am, I am known in the game I play in, as a very good post defneder and rebounder (the one thing I can do pretty consistently). The best I could do was body him slightly out of position, and when the ball was shot by one of his teammates try to box him out as high as I could (i.e. body him to try to move him further away from the basket, as far as I could). He still was able to go right over me for several offensive rebounds. And on others, his teammates got rebounds because it took ALL my physical effort just to box him out, so I could not even move towards the ball when it came off the rim. And on the few times I WAS able to front him, his teammates did not even try to pass to him, but just shot the ball, because when I fronted him HE now had inside position for the offensive rebound, and there was literally nothing I could do to stop him from getting the rebound and scoring the lay up. Now, on offense, I was able to take advantage of the mismatch I had: I stayed on the wing, so he was forced to choose between staying in the paint for defense and rebounding or vover me on the wing ... he did not chase me, and I was able to hit several open jump shots. But there have been plenty of games where I MISS those jump shots, eliminating the match-up advantage.

One last thing, which I alluded to in the paragraph above: You cannot have it both ways. Either you have the small guys try front the big guys ... OR ... you box out. If you have to front, you CANNOT then box out, as you are purposely giving up the inside position that allows you to box out. Hobson's choice when you are so undersized. RU tried to deny the ball. RU tried to double down. RU tried to swarm. RU tried to pressure. RU tried to zone. None of it worked, Was it because RU played those defenses poorly, regardless of size? Maybe (certainly, RU's 2-3 zone has been never better than mediocre this year). But one large factor was simply RU being outmanned.

As to RU being obliterated ... yes, it is hard to watch. I was at the game on Monday, but have a meeting so cannot be at Thursday's game (will DVR it). But I strongly believe that the injuries have a cumulative effect on RU, and a compounding effect. Look how competitive RU was versus a 16-3 (6-0 in the Big Ten) Indiana team. And that was with just ONE additional 6'6" player, a healthy Foreman (with I think hurt his ankle in that game), AND ONE player white hot 3-point shooting. Even if RU had Diallo, with his rawness and limitations, to go with Laurent, I think the team would be performing in a VERY different way, and be much more competitive. And I think Freeman's absences is REALLY REALLY big, even with the limitations he may have had with his size. Freeman had energy, AND an ability to be aggressive inside offensively, which RU completely lacks ... and was a decent FT shooter.

This does not mean I think Jordan can take RU to where we all want RU to go. Nor does it mean I think Jordan can or should survive a season that ends with no more wins, or even just 1-2 additional wins, and constant blow outs. But it does not mean I am CALLING for Jordan to get fired to to resign based on RU's performance since the Indiana game. I do not think there is any coach in America who could do materially better with what there is to work with on the roster AT THIS MOMENT. And even if the available talent is less than it should be (coach's responsibility), the INJURIES have gutted the team like no team I have ever seen.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

thanks...good for you to still be playing. I think I'd tear my achilles in about 30 minutes.

It is tough to watch these games objectively without emotion. It is also very easy to blast poor effort and very difficult to give it down 15.

There are a few individuals that really have my goat on the defensive end and it also bothers me that they are "forced" to play.

 

[MGSA99]

With us knowing we aren't going to win any of these games, all you can do is cheer for good effort and good plays.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

With us knowing we aren't going to win any of these games, all you can do is cheer for good effort and good plays.

Minnesota will do everything in their power to lose. i still haven't given up hope for 2 wins. Illinois and Minnesota could mail it in by then. I get the sense the players like Eddie and I can see them getting up for games they feel they can win.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

A well placed elbow by a 6"1" guy fronting a 6'9" - 7'0" guy will make him think twice about spotting up there every time..just sayin.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

A well placed elbow by a 6"1" guy fronting a 6'9" - 7'0" guy will make him think twice about spotting up there every time..just sayin.

We have a scholarship available for Jordan Tootoo? Reaves from St. Louis Blues?
I like your thinking.

 

[shields]

Also comes back to weight training. Will Foreman get to be 6'8" 230lbs?. he needs to in this conference. And Williams for his faults has toughness.