Bo melton tweet -Good News

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

I agree that we need to land top talent to win. That is not debateable. However, to say the 27th ranked player is not very important is ridiculous. There have been many many guys that have made huge impacts in college ranked in the NJ 20's and gone on to pro careers. Of course it is less likely but to say they are not important is not accurate. Particularly for me the guys that our moderators rank higher like Watts and Tverdov.

Of course many lower-ranked players make an impact in college and reach the NFL. But many many many more do not. That's the entire point of recruiting, and why the people who claim "stars don't matter" usually support teams that don't recruit very well. Recruiting is about percentages: You bring in more four- and five-star players, you win more. It's that simple.

Tying this back into RU, I've repeatedly said Ash and his staff has been a major upgrade from Flood in recruiting. HOWEVER, I think this board has gone a little overboard in heaping praise on him. Your 20-player class is currently ranked seventh in the B1G, according to the 247 Composite. By the average of players' rankings, it's 11th. In New Jersey, you have verbals from two of the state's top 10 in 2017. Further, three of NJ's top 10 in 2018 are already committed, and none to RU.

Ash is better than Flood. Ash has a chance to be a decent coach if given time, I believe. But he hasn't nearly well enough to this point, and now he'll have work hard to keep the kids you do have in the fold moving forward.

 

[drewbagel423]

Melton and Clark are top 10. Tverdov and Lewis are arguably top 10 depending who you ask. That's 4 elite players. Then you have kids like Bowles, Taylor and Watts who would play at most big ten schools including PSU. We are doing fine, thank you.

Don't forget Fogg. I know he's not NJ but still very highly rated, and at a huge position of need. Plus we have Mitchell coming in next year.

 

[ru8081]

What narrative? RU has two verbals from NJ's top 10. One is bringing his bro, who otherwise would be going to Old Dominion, and the other is a legacy. #facts.

Ash is an improvement from Flood. He is not a miracle worker.

Wow NJ top ten! where would they be rated in Florida?

 

[BoogieKnight]

Of course many lower-ranked players make an impact in college and reach the NFL. But many many many more do not. That's the entire point of recruiting, and why the people who claim "stars don't matter" usually support teams that don't recruit very well. Recruiting is about percentages: You bring in more four- and five-star players, you win more. It's that simple.

Tying this back into RU, I've repeatedly said Ash and his staff has been a major upgrade from Flood in recruiting. HOWEVER, I think this board has gone a little overboard in heaping praise on him. Your 20-player class is currently ranked seventh in the B1G, according to the 247 Composite. By the average of players' rankings, it's 11th. In New Jersey, you have verbals from two of the state's top 10 in 2017. Further, three of NJ's top 10 in 2018 are already committed, and none to RU.

Ash is better than Flood. Ash has a chance to be a decent coach if given time, I believe. But he hasn't nearly well enough to this point, and now he'll have work hard to keep the kids you do have in the fold moving forward.

But you don't get it. We need better athletes period...not just at the offense and defensive position groups but on special teams. If you've watched us play yet this year and actually paid attention you'd know this. So while kids like Watts, Tank Lopez, Barrow, etc. don't have these mega offer lists (well Watts has some good offers) we need athletes who can turn around our special teams and they can do this from Day 1. Also, Ash and his staff have been on the job less than a year so far. They have a lot of catch up work to do in recruiting as far as building relationships in the area. They've made up a ton of ground already. While the 2017 class is extremely important (and we are not done yet by the way), the 2018 class will be even more so. This is a complete overhaul and it's going to take 3-4 years and more than one recruiting class to do it. I'd expect to see improvement by year 3 just like you guys are seeing now.

 

[miketd1]

Of course many lower-ranked players make an impact in college and reach the NFL. But many many many more do not. That's the entire point of recruiting, and why the people who claim "stars don't matter" usually support teams that don't recruit very well. Recruiting is about percentages: You bring in more four- and five-star players, you win more. It's that simple.

Tying this back into RU, I've repeatedly said Ash and his staff has been a major upgrade from Flood in recruiting. HOWEVER, I think this board has gone a little overboard in heaping praise on him. Your 20-player class is currently ranked seventh in the B1G, according to the 247 Composite. By the average of players' rankings, it's 11th. In New Jersey, you have verbals from two of the state's top 10 in 2017. Further, three of NJ's top 10 in 2018 are already committed, and none to RU.

Ash is better than Flood. Ash has a chance to be a decent coach if given time, I believe. But he hasn't nearly well enough to this point, and now he'll have work hard to keep the kids you do have in the fold moving forward.

Two words: bell curve.

The top 15% of players are elite, game-breaking players (i.e.: Peppers).
And the bottom 15% are liabilities.

The rest are serviceable players.

It's difficult to have this discussion without throwing our current players under the bus, so draw your own conclusions as to which buckets Flood and Ash picked from.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

But you don't get it. We need better athletes period...not just at the offense and defensive position groups but on special teams. If you've watched us play yet this year and actually paid attention you'd know this. So while kids like Watts, Tank Lopez, Barrow, etc. don't have these mega offer lists (well Watts has some good offers) we need athletes who can turn around our special teams and they can do this from Day 1. Also, Ash and his staff have been on the job less than a year so far. They have a lot of catch up work to do in recruiting as far as building relationships in the area. They've made up a ton of ground already. While the 2017 class is extremely important (and we are not done yet by the way), the 2018 class will be even more so. This is a complete overhaul and it's going to take 3-4 years and more than one recruiting class to do it. I'd expect to see improvement by year 3 just like you guys are seeing now.

I think we're looking at the same thing and just interpreting it differently. I totally get that the roster is decimated because of the Flood years. And I get that a lot of these kids, while not premier recruits, appear to be upgrades athletically in a lot of spots. I just don't think they'll be enough of an upgrade, and that's where we differ I suppose. Whereas you're taking the glass-half-full approach and saying the staff has done a good job thus far to upgrade the athleticism in the program, I'm taking the opposite and saying these are not the types of kids that will allow you, as a team, to compete at a high level.

Maybe that comes in time - like you said, Ash is still in a getting-to-know-you period with people around the state. My only point here is to say that although recruiting has improved, it has a ways to go, and that Ash, although he certainly represents a step in the right direction for RU, hasn't been quite the savior you guys have made him out to be on the recruiting trail thus far.

 

[ru8081]

Can we stop this nonsense about NJ HS football players? If OSU or UM stocked their entire roster with NJ players they would not be as good as they are now. They'd be very good but not in the top 5. The facts are that NJ produces about 1 or 2 Elite prospects per year. As compared to Fla/Texas/Cali they probably have about 25 each. UM and OSU pick, they don't "recruit". They have the luxury of picking elite/top players that fit their systems. For Rutgers they need to search the whole country to find good players that fit our system. Narrowing your search to NJ, Pa, and Md. will not get it done. I hope the "fence the garden" motto is just a place where they'd like to get to someday while recruiting nationwide now.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

As a point of reference, since you mentioned the improvement Penn State has shown in year three. Penn State's 2014 and 2015 classes were ranked 24th and 15th nationally, respectively, and 3rd and 2nd in the B1G. And you have all seen how it's been a struggle just to get to this point (granted, you have to consider the sanctions, coaching turnover, etc. so it's not quite the same situation as the build at Rutgers).

Classes that finish in that 8th to 11th neighborhood, which is where Ash is headed this cycle, simply won't be good enough. He has done well to keep so many NJ kids home, but my point about his general inability to recruit the top player thus far is absolutely true, and that has to get better for RU to take meaningful steps forward.

 

[miketd1]

Vegas: He's not under pressure to win the B1G East like Franklin is.

Ash's bar is to stop getting pasted by 60 & 70, field competitive teams that NJ can be proud to get behind, and to get at least half of our top 20 talent to stay at home.

Those are reasonable expectations.

 

[BoogieKnight]

Vegas: He's not under pressure to win the B1G East like Franklin is.

Ash's bar is to stop getting pasted by 60 & 70, field competitive teams that NJ can be proud to get behind, and to get at least half of our top 20 talent to stay at home.

Those are reasonable expectations.

Thank you. Again, this is a gradual thing for Ash/Rutgers. It took Schiano 5-6 years to build us from a 1-AA program to a good (new) Big East team. It will likely take Ash as long to bring us from a mediocre Group 5-level team to even just a perennially competitive B1G eastern division program. At $4M per year and with...and I mean this with all due respect...an insane fan base, Franklin doesn't have the luxury of time.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

I wasn't meaning to say Ash has to go and win or challenge for a B1G East title now, or even two years from now. I'm well aware of the situation he walked into. All I am saying is he hasn't proven anything yet on the recruiting trail. I think that's a fair statement and one supported by the players Ash has received verbal commitments from.

We don't need to rehash the timeline Franklin's working with at PSU and how it's far from a normal situation because of the sanctions. If you missed it, when asked about the situation over the past week or so, our AD has made strong comments about Franklin's security. I'll give you that often times "votes of confidence" don't carry much weight when push comes to shove, but I think the university's thinking is more in line with mine - that it's unfair to judge Franklin completely at this point given the deep hole the program's still digging out of - than the average fan's need to win now, no matter what.

 

[miketd1]

Vegas: Sounds suspiciously like you're weaseling your way to garner Franklin sympathy...

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

Vegas: Sounds suspiciously like you're weaseling your way to garner Franklin sympathy...

Huh? I've debated about Franklin's future and job security on this board many times. Not looking to do so again today, especially since he and Ash are in different situations.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

Going back to Ash, you lose me with your charge that one of his goals is to keep half of the state's top 20 at home. Because it isn't. If he keeps the players ranked 11-20, the blowouts will continue. The goal is to bring in the most talented players you can, and then win with them. Different programs and situations will afford coaches varying amounts of time, but every one of them will ultimately get fired if they fail to win on the recruiting trail and on the field.

 

[miketd1]

Vegas: There is a lot incorrect about your post but I honestly don't have the patience to address all of it.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

Vegas: There is a lot incorrect about your post but I honestly don't have the patience to address all of it.

This saddens me.

 

[miketd1]

This saddens me.

Don't let it.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[kupuna133]

Going back to Ash, you lose me with your charge that one of his goals is to keep half of the state's top 20 at home. Because it isn't. If he keeps the players ranked 11-20, the blowouts will continue. The goal is to bring in the most talented players you can, and then win with them. Different programs and situations will afford coaches varying amounts of time, but every one of them will ultimately get fired if they fail to win on the recruiting trail and on the field.

So what do you think of Brandon Bell?

 

[RuSnp]

This saddens me.

14 posts from this guy on this thread since yesterday.

1) are you employed?

2) the original post simply stated Melton's tweet was good news. You've singlehandedly taken that in a different (negative) direction.

3) If a Rutgers fan did that on BWI he'd be banned way before 14 posts.

 

[kupuna133]

Going back to Ash, you lose me with your charge that one of his goals is to keep half of the state's top 20 at home. Because it isn't. If he keeps the players ranked 11-20, the blowouts will continue. The goal is to bring in the most talented players you can, and then win with them. Different programs and situations will afford coaches varying amounts of time, but every one of them will ultimately get fired if they fail to win on the recruiting trail and on the field.

How about Jason Cabinda? WHat do you think of him?

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

So what do you think of Brandon Bell?

This is out of left field. But to answer your question: talented kid who can't stay healthy.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Ash and company have DONE a very good job thus far. Taken anything away from them thus far is simply not paying attention. Top 25 class as of now. People keep talking about The Twerps class? Well, they're at 3.18 per kid, we're at 3.0, last I checked. Hardly a difference at all in the grand scheme of things.

So far, so good, that's the bottom line.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

14 posts from this guy on this thread since yesterday.

1) are you employed?

2) the original post simply stated Melton's tweet was good news. You've singlehandedly taken that in a different (negative) direction.

3) If a Rutgers fan did that on BWI he'd be banned way before 14 posts.

Yes.

I think it was the third poster who referenced the Bennett Jackson tweet who first shifted the direction of this thread.

I rarely visit and never post at BWI, but I'll take your word for it.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

How about Jason Cabinda? WHat do you think of him?

Sorry I saw this after answering your first post. Not quite as talented as Bell, but also not as injury prone, though he's obviously been out for a few weeks now.

 

[kupuna133]

This is out of left field. But to answer your question: talented kid who can't stay healthy.

Not really out of left field. You are making allegations of recruiting and stating that it is not worth recruiting kids beyond the top 10. Brandon Bell was 23 in the State of NJ and played in 32 games and started 21 in his first 3 years at Penn State.

You didn't answer me about Jason Cabinda. What do you think of him?

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

Ash and company have DONE a very good job thus far. Taken anything away from them thus far is simply not paying attention. Top 25 class as of now. People keep talking about The Twerps class? Well, they're at 3.18 per kid, we're at 3.0, last I checked. Hardly a difference at all in the grand scheme of things.

So far, so good, that's the bottom line.

You and I both know that RU's class won't finish in the top 25 as other programs complete their classes.

Ash's class (84.52 avg rating) represents a step up from Flood (83.18, 82.95, 79.40) over the past three years, but Ash isn't setting the world on fire either. I'm not saying he's done a bad job; it's just been a little overblown here, that's all.

 

[kupuna133]

Sorry I saw this after answering your first post. Not quite as talented as Bell, but also not as injury prone, though he's obviously been out for a few weeks now.

Well Jason was rated the 26th best prospect in NJ and he has played in 22 games and started 14 prior to this season. So the two 20 something rated NJ talents on your roster seem to meet your coaching staffs and your muster.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

You and I both know that RU's class won't finish in the top 25 as other programs complete their classes.

Ash's class (84.52 avg rating) represents a step up from Flood (83.18, 82.95, 79.40) over the past three years, but Ash isn't setting the world on fire either. I'm not saying he's done a bad job; it's just been a little overblown here, that's all.

No, it's not likely not to finish Top 25, but I don't think anybody here was expecting that with the 1st class coming off the heels of a shit-load of bad press - both public and private - regarding the last regime. My hope was for a Top 35'ish class and we should land right about there. Still no reason (for anyone) not to give Ash and Co credit, at this point, IMHO.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

Not really out of left field. You are making allegations of recruiting and stating that it is not worth recruiting kids beyond the top 10. Brandon Bell was 23 in the State of NJ and played in 32 games and started 21 in his first 3 years at Penn State.

You didn't answer me about Jason Cabinda. What do you think of him?

Why do people always do this about recruiting? Of course you will find lower-rated two- and three-star kids that go on to have productive and college careers. However, the chances of individual and team success are much, much greater when you're talking about more highly recruited players. Plenty of analysis has been done on this subject if you'd like to Google it. It's not up for debate that recruiting rankings have an impact on a team's W-L record and a player's chances at reaching the NFL.

As far as my comment, you're taking it out of the context of the discussion, which was that for Ash to be viewed as a big-time recruiter he'll need to keep the elite players from NJ in-state. I never said lower-ranked kids are not worth recruiting - if a staff identifies one as a good fit for their program, go out and get him. However, you can't point to commitments like that and hold them up as a sign of recruiting prowess. If those types of kids make up the majority of a team's class each cycle, the head coach probably won't be very long for the job.

 

[BoogieKnight]

You and I both know that RU's class won't finish in the top 25 as other programs complete their classes.

Ash's class (84.52 avg rating) represents a step up from Flood (83.18, 82.95, 79.40) over the past three years, but Ash isn't setting the world on fire either. I'm not saying he's done a bad job; it's just been a little overblown here, that's all.

Who cares where it finishes on paper? Look where ND's classes finish on paper every year and they are losing to Duke and NC State. IN FOOTBALL! Once you get out of the Top 10 classes or so there is a large subjective area of interpretation on the field. For example, we have a few 4 star OL on the team right now who can't block worth a damn in our new schemes. They bumped our class rating up though into the Top 25 4 years ago. See what I mean?

I will end this stupid debate now. Ash sucks, Franklin is the king of recruiting. Happy?

 

[JerseyShoreKnight]

Always enjoyed beating up on Raritan HS and Bennett was one of the reasons why. He was always a punk, nothing's changed.

 

[kupuna133]

Why do people always do this about recruiting? Of course you will find lower-rated two- and three-star kids that go on to have productive and college careers. However, the chances of individual and team success are much, much greater when you're talking about more highly recruited players. Plenty of analysis has been done on this subject if you'd like to Google it. It's not up for debate that recruiting rankings have an impact on a team's W-L record and a player's chances at reaching the NFL.

As far as my comment, you're taking it out of the context of the discussion, which was that for Ash to be viewed as a big-time recruiter he'll need to keep the elite players from NJ in-state. I never said lower-ranked kids are not worth recruiting - if a staff identifies one as a good fit for their program, go out and get him. However, you can't point to commitments like that and hold them up as a sign of recruiting prowess. If those types of kids make up the majority of a team's class each cycle, the head coach probably won't be very long for the job.

You never said lower ranked kids are not worth recruiting?

Does this ring a bell?

I realize we are in the era of "everybody gets a trophy," but c'mon, if you're not winning among the elite recruits, you're not winning on the field. I'm sure the 27th-ranked kid is loved dearly by his friends and family, and would be welcomed by the alumni at any school he commits to. But in terms of winning games, he's not very important.

Pretty sure you said just that in this thread.

Your act is old!!!

 

[DanceAppreciationTA]

Just as an FYI: Ash isn't the best recruiter...the OSU beat guy mentioned that himself...a lot these recruiting wins in this class are coming from Blazek & Burnham...to get the best, Ash is going to have to be the closer and get better at recruiting (however you do that)

That being said, lots of 2018 kids, like Tyler Friday, seem to be listening to what this staff is saying...not sure after this weekend though

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

You never said lower ranked kids are not worth recruiting?

Does this ring a bell?

I realize we are in the era of "everybody gets a trophy," but c'mon, if you're not winning among the elite recruits, you're not winning on the field. I'm sure the 27th-ranked kid is loved dearly by his friends and family, and would be welcomed by the alumni at any school he commits to. But in terms of winning games, he's not very important.

Pretty sure you said just that in this thread.

Your act is old!!!

Ha. Nothing I said indicates that lower-ranked kids, in general, are not worth recruiting. Everything I said was true, though, and you can go research the data that proves that Program A, which recruits primarily high three- to five-star kids, is far more likely to win than Program B, who loads up on two- and three-star guys.

Along with "everybody gets a trophy," though, I also realize our society now allows people to interpret things they read, process that information through their own preconceived ideas, and then apply a "meaning" to said content. So don't worry about ignoring context as you refer back to my comments. I see it all the time these days.

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

I will end this stupid debate now. Ash sucks, Franklin is the king of recruiting. Happy?

Ash doesn't suck. He just isn't as good as people here believe.

And Franklin is far from the king. We've struck out on too many DT and LB over the past few cycles.

 

[urbanecane]

When Ash was hired, my one big request was a top 35 class for 2017. Barring an unfortunate closing, it appears this class will accomplish that goal. I get what Vegas is saying, that even with the recruiting uptick RUs class will likely fall somewhere between 6-8 in conference, but there are 4 BIG teams in the top 10 this week. 8th place in the BIG is better than whatever we were doing in the AAC, I'll tell you that much. So far RU has 3 national recruits, a bunch of guys who were offered by top 5 B10 teams (Taylor, Lewis, Vretman, Tverdov, and Watts for starters) and your typical regional guys. For a first year coach, I would give this a B+

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

When Ash was hired, my one big request was a top 35 class for 2017. Barring an unfortunate closing, it appears this class will accomplish that goal. I get what Vegas is saying, that even with the recruiting uptick RUs class will likely fall somewhere between 6-8 in conference, but there are 4 BIG teams in the top 10 this week. 8th place in the BIG is better than whatever we were doing in the AAC, I'll tell you that much. So far RU has 3 national recruits, a bunch of guys who were offered by top 5 B10 teams (Taylor, Lewis, Vretman, Tverdov, and Watts for starters) and your typical regional guys. For a first year coach, I would give this a B+

I think you're overplaying the offer sheets of a couple of those guys, but this is a very reasonable look at your class right now. With Taylor, I see he's visiting Wisconsin soon. What's the consensus on how solid he is right now?

 

[DanceAppreciationTA]

I think you're overplaying the offer sheets of a couple of those guys, but this is a very reasonable look at your class right now. With Taylor, I see he's visiting Wisconsin soon. What's the consensus on how solid he is right now?

90% goner come this Sunday

 

[kupuna133]

Ha. Nothing I said indicates that lower-ranked kids, in general, are not worth recruiting. Everything I said was true, though, and you can go research the data that proves that Program A, which recruits primarily high three- to five-star kids, is far more likely to win than Program B, who loads up on two- and three-star guys.

Along with "everybody gets a trophy," though, I also realize our society now allows people to interpret things they read, process that information through their own preconceived ideas, and then apply a "meaning" to said content. So don't worry about ignoring context as you refer back to my comments. I see it all the time these days.

Thats rich I quote you directly and I have a reading comprehension problem. Got it.

Vegas I understand recruiting. I know that 2-3 teams from each conference have a legitimate shot at a national level recruiting class. And those 2-3 teams are dynamic depending on year and coaching turnover. 95% of the top 15-35 level recruiting classes are made up of the recruits we are talking about in this thread. Including the 2 names I mentioned earlier on your team that you disrespected with the participation trophy comment.

If you can recruit consistently from the top 30 kids in your state/region and round them out with some top tier talent you have yourself a good recruiting class.

 

[sct1111]

No Rutgers fan thinks we're competing for the Big Ten championship anytime soon. Cheesecake seems to think we expect to. Continuous top 35 classes can put us near the top 25 every other year or so. That is really the goal for us.

Our recruiting probably won't ever be better than PSU, maybe a year here or there. But it shouldn't be significantly worse either.