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Could another coach have won with this talent?

cicero grimes

cicero grimes

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Nov 23, 2015
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Could any of the other names discussed last year before Ash was hired have done any better? Would Babers, Golden or Rhule have been able to get this team to a bowl? In my opinion no. Right now the talent is not there. Ash needs to recruit talent but I am willing to give him a pass on this season.
 
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cicero grimes said:
Could any of the other names discussed last year before Ash was hired have done any better? Would Babers, Golden or Rhule have been able to get this team to a bowl? In my opinion no. Right now the talent is not there. Ash needs to recruit talent but I am willing to give him a pass on this season.
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We will never know. Maybe another game or two. You can't teach your kicker to make FG from 40yds or better. As others have said you really can't teach speed. MAYBE some different game planning we would have eked out another win or two.

At this point I would rather roll the dice with Ash. He seems to be selling his vision to the high school kids. Let's let it play out
 
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Woefully thin depth chart BEFORE the season started. Numerous season ending injuries to key name players. Others like Stevens being out really hurt special teams as he was becoming an ace. Who exactly would we bench for "not having a clue" and more importantly was there someone better who would fill in? If they had better players on the bench they would be starting. Take a look at our depth chart and see which players were 2,3 or 4 star recruits. Frieghtening
 
An experienced coach probably could have won more games, and with a couple lucky breaks even got 6 wins. With Ash, we also have the issue of implementing a new offense (that really doesn't fit the players) plus the fact that that our coaching staff is on a steep learning curve.

But within 3-4 years, we'll know whether Ash has more upside, in which case he was the right pick.
 
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I see issues with the OL play, TE play and Special Teams...but

I'm not passing judgment on Ash until he has a two deep composed entirely of players he and the staff evaluated and recruited. Therefore, I don't think I will be able to really evaluate the job he has done until the 2018 season.
 
Not saying Ash, given time will not turn out to be a good HC (still to be determined) but to the original question. Another experienced HC with good OC's and DC's would most assuredly won more games with Rutgers current talent (IMHO 6-6).

In the off season Ash will have to evaluate Rutgers offensive and defensive performance and decide if the systems installed (assistant coaches) are adequate. Moving from a position coach to OC in a P5 Conference is such a step up. Again not saying DM won't be good or even great in the future but you will have to endure the growing pains while he and other less experienced assistant coaches learn (on the job training). Well it is Ash's call because the ultimate responsibility rests with the HC.

Consider, James (dominate the state) Franklin decision to replace his OC and DC and the net result.

Consider Pitt changing an OC this year and now have one of the most prolific offenses in Pitt's history.

Coaching and player development is almost equivalent to natural raw talent. Not saying Pitt will win but Pitt's current football talent has allowed it to compete with the Top teams in college football. This year having played against 3 Top 10 CFB Teams (beat 2 and lost by 7 points to the third) Pitt proved what solid coaching can provide. Do you think Pitt's talent is equivalent to these teams.

In reading your board, it seems many just want to place all the blame on lack of talent.

IMHO Rutgers problems (2-10) this year were a result of several contributing factors (Coaching
60% and talent 40%).

The positive points are that Ash and staff can recruit but will now have to fend off other programs that may want to get some of them before NLI.

See how it goes.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
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Is it possible that any coach would want to set the bar this low in his first season? Was there some career management going on here?
 
Maybe - IF ....

If some premier quick-fix coach who would have commanded a $4.5 m/year salary and a staffing budget 2-3 times what was provided to Ash was brought in - and it was made clear that the mission is to win NOW - at all cost - spare no expense.... (so be wildly aggressive pursuing every instant fix - grad transfers & short term solutions... and stretch the rules if necessary) ....and of course they would not have embarked upon a 'build for the future' total reconfiguration of the entire offensive schemes .... they would have tricked / squeezed / gimiciked / burned-out / cut-corners to satisfy the WIN NOW directive .... but even then it would be tough because there was not a huge stockpile of under-utilized talent at RU just sitting here waiting for the right inspiration and motivation.


but Realistically - if you are talking about any of the other coaches in the same comp range as Ash ... and total funds for a staff in the same range as Ash received.... and an agreed upon mission of taking the mess that existed as of December 2015 & solidly building a team that will grow to be a respected & sustainability successful program in the B1G ...
well it is unrealistic to think that there would have been any genuine appreciably different outcome.
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
Not saying Ash, given time will not turn out to be a good HC (still to be determined) but to the original question. Another experienced HC with good OC's and DC's would most assuredly won more games with Rutgers current talent (IMHO 6-6).

In the off season Ash will have to evaluate Rutgers offensive and defensive performance and decide if the systems installed (assistant coaches) are adequate. Moving from a position coach to OC in a P5 Conference is such a step up. Again not saying DM won't be good or even great in the future but you will have to endure the growing pains while he and other less experienced assistant coaches learn (on the job training). Well it is Ash's call because the ultimate responsibility rests with the HC.

Consider, James (dominate the state) Franklin decision to replace his OC and DC and the net result.

Consider Pitt changing an OC this year and now have one of the most prolific offenses in Pitt's history.

Coaching and player development is almost equivalent to natural raw talent. Not saying Pitt will win but Pitt's current football talent has allowed it to compete with the Top teams in college football. This year having played against 3 Top 10 CFB Teams (beat 2 and lost by 7 points to the third) Pitt proved what solid coaching can provide. Do you think Pitt's talent is equivalent to these teams.

In reading your board, it seems many just want to place all the blame on lack of talent.

IMHO Rutgers problems (2-10) this year were a result of several contributing factors (Coaching
60% and talent 40%).

The positive points are that Ash and staff can recruit but will now have to fend off other programs that may want to get some of them before NLI.

See how it goes.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
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You keep citing Pitt changing their OC, but isn't the truth that they were FORCED to change because your previous OC bolted for Georgia? So, in reality, it is nothing that Narduzzi did affirmatively, but he lucked out in the previous OC leaving after one year. This is not a shot at Narduzzi, and he deserves credit for the new hire, but would you guys be in the same position this year if the former OC stayed?
 
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Sure there were coaches out there, and available, that could have done a better job this year. With good coaching you can make up for talent deficiencies. Would they have beaten any of the top ten/top twenty teams they faced? Hell no, but they would have won another game or two and been competitive in some of the other loses. Next year will be a telling year. If they don't improve it may time to cut bait.
 
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Knight Shift said:
You keep citing Pitt changing their OC, but isn't the truth that they were FORCED to change because your previous OC bolted for Georgia? So, in reality, it is nothing that Narduzzi did affirmatively, but he lucked out in the previous OC leaving after one year. This is not a shot at Narduzzi, and he deserves credit for the new hire, but would you guys be in the same position this year if the former OC stayed?
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Last year Pitt was 8-4 with the old OC and this year Pitt is 8-4 with the new OC.

However, the change in offensive production that the new OC delivered has been nothing short of amazing with the same level of talent.

What I will say this year we would have lost more games if not for our offensive production delivered by Matt Canada.

The D needs to be improved (especially DB play) and that is on Narduzzi and the DC to get it done. Our DC (similar to Rutgers) also did not have a lot of P5 experience but I was not too concerned because I felt Narduzzi could help in that department.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
Last year Pitt was 8-4 with the old OC and this year Pitt is 8-4 with the new OC.

However, the change in offensive production that the new OC delivered has been nothing short of amazing with the same level of talent.

What I will say this year we would have lost more games if not for our offensive production delivered by Matt Canada.

The D needs to be improved (especially DB play) and that is on Narduzzi and the DC to get it done. Our DC (similar to Rutgers) also did not have a lot of P5 experience but I was not too concerned because I felt Narduzzi could help in that department.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
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But you sort of missed my point. Narduzzi and Pitt lucked out by the former OC leaving for Georgia. Lucky for you guys.
 
History will answer your question.

What did Al Golden and Rhule do at Temple?

2005: 0-11
2006: 1-11 (Golden year 1)
2007: 4-8
2008: 5-7
2009: 9-4

2012: 4-17
2013: 2-10 (Rhule year 1)
2014: 6-6
2015: 10-4


Long story short. Nobody wins in year 1 due to talent deficiencies, the time it takes to build culture, and the time it takes to implement your system.
 
Knight Shift said:
But you sort of missed my point. Narduzzi and Pitt lucked out by the former OC leaving for Georgia. Lucky for you guys.
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I would not disagree.

Narduzzi and Matt Canada were friends and associates from their coaching days at Northern Illinois.

Matt Canada is an OC genius.

Pitt is lucky to have him. Great pick by Nardawg.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
Virginia had new coach who coached at BYU. They were 2-10 and lost to Richmond.
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
I would not disagree.

Narduzzi and Matt Canada were friends and associates from their coaching days at Northern Illinois.

Matt Canada is an OC genius.

Pitt is lucky to have him. Great pick by Nardawg.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
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But that may set Canada up to move on in another year to be a Head Coach. Good problem to have.
 
Knight Shift said:
But that may set Canada up to move on in another year to be a Head Coach. Good problem to have.
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That is a fact.

To me the most important factor for a University to maintain a successful Football program (Year in and Year out) is continuity of HC and his staff.

The "Rich" programs can just go out and spend the money to "buy" their success.

That is why it is hard to compete with them.



HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
No. The only difference would be if we're were in a league like the acc or aac.
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
I would not disagree.

Narduzzi and Matt Canada were friends and associates from their coaching days at Northern Illinois.

Matt Canada is an OC genius.

Pitt is lucky to have him. Great pick by Nardawg.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
Click to expand...
Pitt gave up 440 yards to Syracuse's second string QB. Well played, sir. Narduzzi is biding his time at Pitt until something better comes along, which is pretty much anything.
 
Frabjous said:
Pitt gave up 440 yards to Syracuse's second string QB. Well played, sir. Narduzzi is biding his time at Pitt until something better comes along, which is pretty much anything.
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Well that is up to our new Chancellor and AD to figure out.

Now in the ACC Conference receiving equal member payments.

You know the expression Money talks and BS walks.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
Flood won 4 games [roll]
:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing::popcorn:
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
Well that is up to our new Chancellor and AD to figure out.

Now in the ACC Conference receiving equal member payments.

You know the expression Money talks and BS walks.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
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Yes, but the ACC equal member payouts are chump change compared to the B1G equal member payments. Rutgers will eclipse Pitt when the $ kicks in.
 
Bowl eligible? No. Win a few more and be overall more competitive? Yes. Our schedule was top heavy to be sure, but let's no pretend there aren't beatable teams too.
 
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Frabjous said:
Yes, but the ACC equal member payouts are chump change compared to the B1G equal member payments. Rutgers will eclipse Pitt when the $ kicks in.
Click to expand...

Well I guess we will see how that translates into wins.

Nice chump change though when compared to the Old Big East chump change.

Some one should tell Purdue, Illinois, Indiana and others that they are spending their money unwisely.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
 
Upstream said:
An experienced coach probably could have won more games, and with a couple lucky breaks even got 6 wins. With Ash, we also have the issue of implementing a new offense (that really doesn't fit the players) plus the fact that that our coaching staff is on a steep learning curve.

But within 3-4 years, we'll know whether Ash has more upside, in which case he was the right pick.
Click to expand...


I agree! Experience was needed. Change is difficult. I think that Flood would have won 4 games. But, we are going in a new direction...and good things will come.
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
Not saying Ash, given time will not turn out to be a good HC (still to be determined) but to the original question. Another experienced HC with good OC's and DC's would most assuredly won more games with Rutgers current talent (IMHO 6-6).
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6-6? I guess you live in a state that legalized recreational drug use.
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
OK

Rutgers talent is 100% of the problem and the coaching staff is terrific.

Guess 2-10 is a totally reasonable result.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!
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Straw man, table for one.

6-6 wasn't going to be possible this year, especially after Grant and Lambert went down in game four. Anyone who thinks that a different set of coaches, or a different scheme, or whatever, was suddenly going to make up for having a porous OLine, no playmakers at WR, and no LBers is in fantasy land.

3-9? Yeah, I could see that. 4-8? Maybe. 6-6? Puff, puff, pass, my friend.
 
Have won what? A few more games? Maybe. What difference would that have made? This team needs better talent going forward. It starts there.
 
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RUChoppin said:
Straw man, table for one.

6-6 wasn't going to be possible this year, especially after Grant and Lambert went down in game four. Anyone who thinks that a different set of coaches, or a different scheme, or whatever, was suddenly going to make up for having a porous OLine, no playmakers at WR, and no LBers is in fantasy land.

3-9? Yeah, I could see that. 4-8? Maybe. 6-6? Puff, puff, pass, my friend.
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In watching the Rutger vs Maryland game I believe the announces commented on how Rutgers had 4 seniors on the OL.

With a 2-10 record, Ash now has to determine whether the staff he has assembled is up to the task or make some changes. If he determines nothing needs to be done with current staff in place then it is great for him and Rutgers.

No problem to worry, question or be concerned then.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!


I
 
Panthergrowl13 said:
In watching the Rutger vs Maryland game I believe the announces commented on how Rutgers had 4 seniors on the OL.

With a 2-10 record, Ash now has to determine whether the staff he has assembled is up to the task or make some changes. If he determines nothing needs to be done with current staff in place then it is great for him and Rutgers.

No problem to worry, question or be concerned then.
Click to expand...

The OLine was a major problem last year, was still a problem this year (especially with the shift to spread, the elimination of the FB, and the drop to just one TE), and will be still a worse problem next year.

Not sure where you heard 4 seniors on the OL, though - that's probably in the same reality where we could have gone 6-6 this year.

We had 4 returning OLinemen this year, three of which were seniors, and one of which was replaced by a RS Fr mid-way through the season. So, there were just two senior starters against Maryland. The cupboard at OLine is pretty much bare, though, as the recruiting at that position has been poor for a long time.

Our returning starters going into next year will be Miller (Sr), Cole (RS Jr), and Seymour (RS So)... with just Cole being a real bright spot this year. Seymour wasn't even playing OLine until this past summer. Behind them, we have only Applefield (RS Jr), Heeman (RS Jr), and Jackson (RS So) on the roster who have ever taken snaps. Clark (5.8) and Vretman (5.7) coming in for 2017 are rated more highly by Rivals than any OLineman we currently have on the roster (we have just three others rated at 5.6)... I doubt either will be ready to start as true freshmen, but one or both might be pressed into service.

This is by far the biggest area of concern for next year, and we could really use some help from a grad transfer or Juco. We may have upgraded talent at WR, TE, and QB... but none of that matters if the line is a shambles. Turning around OLine recruiting takes more than a single season.
 
If Ash came in with a top OC that was mostly pro set and if he said "F-it" and just started guys regardless if they wanted to show at practice or meetings, he could have possibly pulled out 5 wins. As it was, he was very close to 4.
He has changed not only the schemes on the field but also the culture. I do think he needs to find a coach that can help bridge the gap from what we have to DM's offense though.
 
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