Could another coach have won with this talent?
- Thread starter cicero grimes
- Start date
Georgia Tech does not have "2 star talent". Go look at their recruiting classes. Significantly better than Flood's classes, and I would bet many of the recruits from their last 3 recruiting classes are still in the program - unlike Flood's classes.
They also have players recruited specifically to execute the triple option offense. Johnson is good coach who has mastered the intricacies of the triple option, so coaching plays a role. Very tricky offense to defend because none of the D1 schools (that is both Power 5 and the Group of 5 schools) run the triple option outside of Georgia Tech and the service academies . I'm sure that factored into the outcome on Saturday. Under Johnson, GT has knocked off some of the factory schools, but he couldn't have done it without the athletes.
I think is fairly safe to presume another coaching STAFF (not just head coach) might have won't 1-4 more games with this team. Clearly Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana were all very winnable. Illinois and Maryland should have been much closer.
Would I feel better at 4-8 or 6-6? Absolutely....
The question now is, can this staff really recruit, keep talent home, actually develop that talent and show they really can coach-up the guys they bring in who (supposedly) have the ability to play in the type of system Ash wants to run.
Would I feel better at 4-8 or 6-6? Absolutely....
The question now is, can this staff really recruit, keep talent home, actually develop that talent and show they really can coach-up the guys they bring in who (supposedly) have the ability to play in the type of system Ash wants to run.
well Flood would have won so what does that say?
Ash did so so many things wrong this year it's mind boggling
Ash did so so many things wrong this year it's mind boggling
I think maybe a coach like Saban/Meyer/Dantonio/Chris Pederson could have beaten Minnesota, Maryland and Illinois. They certainly could have competed much more in the five games we were blown out. But you can't teach speed, you can't teach punters and kickers. Our schedule was insanely hard and to be honest playing 3 top 10 teams that early on ruined our depth and confidence as a team. I'd rather have Ash struggle this much early on in his tenure when our talent was so bad if he were perfect we still wouldn't have made a bowl.
This is key for this staff.
They came in without the pieces they needed to do what they wanted to do, sure. Now, how quickly can they get them?
Help is on the way.... lots of guys redshirting right now that we expect to contribute: Mitchell, Washington, Manning, Krimin, Jabbie, Lumor. Lots of guys in the incoming class that we expect to contribute in the near term: Melton, Fogg, Clark, Lewis, Vretman,
But that's not enough. We need to finish the 2017 class strong, and have another strong 2018 class, if we're going to really start to turn the ship around.
And then how well (and how quickly) do the younger players develop?
This offseason will begin with all the players knowing what's expected - last year, everything was new. The assumption is that less time will need to be spent on teaching the "what and why" of all the changes to the program this offseason, and hopefully the team will get more benefit from it.
Still, I'm expecting 3-9 for next season.
2018 will really be what makes my mind up about Ash and company. We'll have a touch easier schedule, 2.5 recruiting classes on the field, no more excuses of "still installing the system", and a decent bead on what the 2019 class will bring.
How on Earth do you know that Flood "would have won"? You don't. You have NO clue if "Flood would have won" ANY of those games.
SMH
Well considering that even Flood managed to win 4 B1G games and not get blanked 4 times...it is not hard to argue that someone else could have done better- and I say this as someone who wanted Flood fired after the USF game in 2013.
There were issues with coaching that led to us only having 2 wins. You are being willfully blind to say we have less talent than Illinois, as one example. Yeah, anyone is going to get blown out by Michigan or tOSU but to get blown out by MSU who won 2 other games is total and complete indictment of coaching. Recall that an interim coach nearly beat them last year when they were stacked with NFL players.
There were issues with coaching that led to us only having 2 wins. You are being willfully blind to say we have less talent than Illinois, as one example. Yeah, anyone is going to get blown out by Michigan or tOSU but to get blown out by MSU who won 2 other games is total and complete indictment of coaching. Recall that an interim coach nearly beat them last year when they were stacked with NFL players.
Flood without Carroo and a few others this year would have put up a big fat 0 in the conference. He would have gotten blown out too.
Bingo.
Flood was getting blown out in the AAC the one year we were there.
I love how some people pretend that didn't happen.
spot on...gotta say, while we are at opposite ends of the spectrum in politics, I agree with you more an more on football. Now if only you'd leave the dark side and come into the light in politics we'd be ok :)
Flood won 3 B1G games in 2014 with all Schiano-recruited upper classmen. He then dropped to 1 B1G win in 2015 by riding Carroo hard (and having Laviano throw one of his 3 career games with 210+ yards). You really think he'd have done any better this year without Carroo, without Grant for 8.5 games, and without any returning LBs?
Not sure what the "willfully blind" bit means, though.
Looking at the five worst teams we lost to, and their Rivals recruiting ranking averages over the last four years:
27.3 - Michigan State
43.8 - Maryland
50.1 - Indiana
54.8 - Minnesota
58.5 - Rutgers
59.0 - Illinois
And we lost our two highest rated players from those classes (Barnwell, Ford) among a host of others.
Our "best" class over the last four was 2013 (44th), which was led by (5.6 rating or better):
5.8 rating: Barnwell (dismissed)
5.7 rating: Grant (starter - injured), Patton (starter), Cioffi (starter), TJ Taylor (limited action), Myles Nash (limited action), Nick Internicola (transfer)
5.6 rating: Dorian Miller (starter), Laviano (starter - demoted), Gross-Armiento (transfer), Lester Liston (dismissed).
Our next best class was 2015 (54th), which was led by:
5.8 - Ford (left team)
5.7 - Dare (0 games)
5.6 - Griffin (1 game), Snorweah (limited action), Venesky (0 games), Gopre (DNQ), Clayton (transfer)
That's not to say that coaching didn't play a part in our record this year... but thinking that we had an abundance of talent compared to teams like Illinois (or MSU, or Indiana) isn't accurate.
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I am talking strictly on a star basis as I have seen the allegation that are players are just talented which I do not agree with outside of a few positions. Now is it possible Flood whiffed again and again, yeah, but I think we had enough for more than 2 wins this year.
If we are just talking in terms of guys having to step up that we didn't think had to- OK but MSU is kind of in that boat due to the NFL.
I mean looking even at Howard, we were down for quite a while and they outplayed us to start. I am not saying this was going to be a bowl team. But if we had, say the Fridge of the spread at OC, I think we beat Iowa, Minnesota, maybe Illinois and Indiana, and get on the board at least once in other games. This offense was historically bad, and I think a lot more teams have endured worse attrition for various reasons and managed to win a conference game or two.
Yup. Another thing stated by many of us, prior to the season when some were predicting 6-8 wins, was that the losses of LC and Lumpkin were going to have a ridiculous effect on our O no matter what we ran. People seriously underestimate how important BOTH were to that side of the ball.
All I know is Fridge took a long look at the group before last season and said, "I don't enjoy losing 50-0," and retired. Should tell you all you need to know.
On a star basis?
We had 39 players start games this year. Looking at their Rivals ratings (italics are graduating, bold are returning)
6 players were rated 5.8 (four stars) or better coming out of HS, and not one signed with Flood out of HS:
6.1 - Darius Hamilton (Schiano - 12 starts)
5.9 - Chris Muller (Schiano - 12 starts)
5.8 - JJ Denman (Schiano - 7 starts)
5.8 - Quanzell Lambert (Schiano - 4 starts)
5.8 - Kiy Hester (transfer - 4 starts)
5.8 - Ross Douglas (transfer - 4 starts)
5 more players were rated 5.7 (high three stars), 2 were Flood recruits:
Anthony Cioffi (Schiano - 12 starts)
Julian Pinnix-Odrick (Schiano - 12 starts)
Andre Patton (11 starts)
Janarion Grant (4 starts) (may return)
Carlton Agudosi (Schiano - 2 starts)
6 more players were rated 5.6 (mid three stars)
Dorian Miller (12 starts)
Chris Laviano (7 starts)
Saquan Hampton (7 starts)
Robert Martin (6 starts)
Josh Hicks (2 starts)
Kevin Wilkins (1 start)
9 players were rated 5.5 (low three stars)
Derrick Nelson (12 starts)
Deonte Roberts (12 starts)
Blessaun Austin (11 starts)
Sebastian Joseph (11 starts)
Nick Arciadiacono (9 starts)
Justin Goodwin (6 starts)
Tyreek Maddox-Williams (6 starts)
Keymaal Seymour (5 starts)
Brandon Russell (1 start)
10 players were rated 5.2-5.4 (two stars): Tariq Cole, Jawuan Harris, John Tsimis, Damon Hayes, Trevor Morris, Gio Rescignio, Dacoven Bailey, Zack Heeman, Isaiah Wharton, Eric Margolis
3 players were not rated: Darnell Davis, Matt Flanagan, Greg Jones
This season:
Overall, of the 39 players who both started and had ratings coming out of HS: 1 five star, 5 four star, 20 three star, 10 two star, 3 no stars
Average rating (not including unrated): 5.56 (low-to-mid three star)
Returning next season:
Of those returning next year: 2 four star, 11 (maybe 12) three star, 9 two star, 1 no stars
Average rating (not including unrated): 5.47 (5.48 with Grant) (low three star)
Defense: 14 players returning who had a start this year, average rating 5.49 (low three star)
Offense: 9 players returning who had a start this year, average rating 5.44 (high two star... 5.47 with Grant, low three star)
I could dig into players who played multiple games but didn't ever start, but this gives a pretty good idea of the recruiting rankings coming out of HS for the players we had on the roster this year and the players returning next year.
I am certain a pro set coach like Golden would have definitely had a better record in 2016 than Ash.
But the question is how high is the potential with Golden over Ash? I think Golden would have kept us middle of the pack in the B1G his whole career. Some people here would not have a problem with that. However I think Ash's ceiling is higher than Golden's ceiling or almost every other. We will see if that comes to fruition.
I will admit unless Narduzzi was a pile of smoke and he really didn't want to be here I still have trouble figuring out why we didn't take him.
But the question is how high is the potential with Golden over Ash? I think Golden would have kept us middle of the pack in the B1G his whole career. Some people here would not have a problem with that. However I think Ash's ceiling is higher than Golden's ceiling or almost every other. We will see if that comes to fruition.
I will admit unless Narduzzi was a pile of smoke and he really didn't want to be here I still have trouble figuring out why we didn't take him.
