EDIT Montez Mathis was a +12 today
- Thread starter Greene Rice FIG
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I saw 2 of his makes a 3 and a dunk. I missed his 2 other makes. I also saw 4 misses inside the paint. He can't be shooting more than 10% inside the paint (excluding dunks) for the season. Seems like a B1G athlete, more than Harper and McConnell. We need him to develop like EO has.
Mathis has been a Bright Spot this whole year...is tough as nails...terrific defender...and learning to drive and finish as well......He'll be a Captain shortly.....and doesn't take crap from anyone......and is getting better game by game....
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This is why I think so many people were frustrated with the charge call--we need a break from the refs for once. Montez had clearly brought his A game and was looking to take over for us on offense... that call basically took him out of the game.
Pike
I agree but Pike has to realize this trend that occurs every game and get T' d up to further motivate the team and to start putting the refs on notice that I am not going to take this crap anymore. He has to stop being Mr Nice Guy chatting with the refs all the time during the game. Mathis and Eugene were gone 5 minutes into the game with 2 fouls each and coincidentally so was the game.
How is giving the opponent two free throws and the ball going to help? You can be motivational without actively hurting your team on the court. It's not like a baseball manager getting ejected where there is no consequence to the game.
I understand your point, but I'm not sure getting a technical there would have helped. It would have turned the crowd up to eleven with booing, but at the same time it seems like this team tenses up in big spots when the crowd gets roaring. They need to loosen up.
Mathis
McConnell
Harper
Johnson
Carter
plus Geo and Eugene
1. I think this is the core 7 to develop and get experience this year. Sprinkle in Kiss, Doorson and Thiam to see if they can get hot and to rest the core 7. Spend a little extra practice time on improving shot selection, fast breaks and secondary breaks, and finishing close to the hoop.
2. Next year we add Young, Mulcahy and hopefully a stretch 4 that can shoot and maybe another (transfer in?) if there is a transfer out.
3. Recruit like our hair is on fire. Bring in guys that can shoot and score.
I didn't understand why Pike kept Geo out there for 33 minutes and kept sitting Mathis who clearly was brining a ton of energy every time he was on the court.. We were actually joking about it in my section. At one point when Geo was on the floor and was just playing awfully, Pike was brining in four new players. We joked that Geo was going to be the one guy he let stay in. Sure enough Geo was. Seriously we were only joking that he was going to make that move. Not sure what Pike thought he was getting out of Geo by keeping him out there.
Long term it helps with the calls fro
its about the long term not the short term. Maryland game was over in the latter portion of first half. Its irrelevant how many points we lose by yesterday but it is relevant if questionable calls go our way or are not called during future games as refs don't want to be berated during a game.
Phil I have said this for a number of games he needs to get a technical rather than sit there and plead with the refs after every bad call not that we were going to win but there were many bad calls made early that helped to sway the game. I think a technical would fire up the team and also you would start getting some calls
There needs to be some type of analytic somewhere that will prove that you lose production in the long run when you sit guys the moment they get into foul trouble. I know defense suffers when you leave them out there, but I don't think coaches are optimizing their lineups this way
It gets tricky. Silly having guys like Eugene sit with 2 fouls and watch the game turn. At the same time I hate watching guys on court with foul trouble not contest shots.
As a whole I do agree with your premise.
I agree with that premise. It seems like sitting a key player for half the game just to prevent him from getting his third, fourth or fifth foul is just as bad as him fouling out, if not worse.
It was silly is that Eugene got his 3rd foul within the 1st few minutes of the 2nd half and stayed in the game. Not sure why coaches use half time as the dividing line. If one wanted to be technical the 4 minute market of the 1st half would be the 2/5 line of the game and the 16 minute mark of the 2nd half is the 3/5 of the game.
It's tough to balance.
You only get 5 fouls, and I'm sure coaches want to make sure that their best guys are available for the waning minutes.... so really, they only allow you to get 4 fouls before that time. That's 2 in the first half, and 2 in the first 15 min of the second half.
Mathis got his first foul at the 13:58 mark, and his second at the 9:53 mark. He then sat for a bit, but Pike brought him back again before halftime... and he picked up his third at the 7:06 mark. At that point, he was 2/4 with 5 points (both made shots coming within 10 seconds of each other), 1 assist, 1 rebound, 2 steals, and 1 turnover.
The second half is where he shined, with 6 points on 2/6 shooting, 7 reb, 2 ast, with just 1 more PF (with just 3:05 left) and no turnovers.
If Mathis had been left in to finish the first half - would he have picked up a 4th foul and not seen the production he did in the 2nd half? Hard to say - but that's a pretty significant risk.
Meanwhile Omoruyi got two quick fouls (17:24 and 16:01), and sat a while but also returned in the 1st half. He then got his 3rd at the 18:48 mark in the 2nd half, and 4th at the 10:02 mark... before fouling out with 3:59 left. That's 5 fouls in 18 game minutes.... if he'd been left in for more time in the 1st half, there's a good chance he'd have fouled out even earlier than he did.
You only get 5 fouls, and I'm sure coaches want to make sure that their best guys are available for the waning minutes.... so really, they only allow you to get 4 fouls before that time. That's 2 in the first half, and 2 in the first 15 min of the second half.
Mathis got his first foul at the 13:58 mark, and his second at the 9:53 mark. He then sat for a bit, but Pike brought him back again before halftime... and he picked up his third at the 7:06 mark. At that point, he was 2/4 with 5 points (both made shots coming within 10 seconds of each other), 1 assist, 1 rebound, 2 steals, and 1 turnover.
The second half is where he shined, with 6 points on 2/6 shooting, 7 reb, 2 ast, with just 1 more PF (with just 3:05 left) and no turnovers.
If Mathis had been left in to finish the first half - would he have picked up a 4th foul and not seen the production he did in the 2nd half? Hard to say - but that's a pretty significant risk.
Meanwhile Omoruyi got two quick fouls (17:24 and 16:01), and sat a while but also returned in the 1st half. He then got his 3rd at the 18:48 mark in the 2nd half, and 4th at the 10:02 mark... before fouling out with 3:59 left. That's 5 fouls in 18 game minutes.... if he'd been left in for more time in the 1st half, there's a good chance he'd have fouled out even earlier than he did.
It's too early to tell, but these are the type of things I see when I watch him play. You can see why he had such a strong offer list.
I'm not behind the argument that substitution mattered in this game.
But I have always questioned the tactic, practiced by seemingly every coach, of pulling a player after early fouls to "preserve" him. I don't think it would take much analysis to establish that this approach, way more often than just continuing to play him as you ordinarily would, will result in significantly less minutes from that moment onward for that player in that game.
Good analysis Choppin. It is tough to balance. I agree that coaches tend to want their best players in the game during the waning minutes in what they hope will be a close game against a better opponent.
The balancing act is, how big do you let the deficit grow before you put your best players back in, even with foul trouble? If you wait too long it will be too late.
I feel the same way about the “stopper” in baseball who is brought in only for the ninth inning with no men on base, when his team has a lead. There are often situations earlier in the game, say in the sixth or seventh inning with men on base, when a real stopper is needed to keep the other team from taking a lead. Seems wasteful not to bring him into the game during that critical time.
The balancing act is, how big do you let the deficit grow before you put your best players back in, even with foul trouble? If you wait too long it will be too late.
I feel the same way about the “stopper” in baseball who is brought in only for the ninth inning with no men on base, when his team has a lead. There are often situations earlier in the game, say in the sixth or seventh inning with men on base, when a real stopper is needed to keep the other team from taking a lead. Seems wasteful not to bring him into the game during that critical time.
Choppin...
Disagree. Through the numbers out the window. Mathis was our best player in the 1st half and he was essentially our heart beat
Disagree. Through the numbers out the window. Mathis was our best player in the 1st half and he was essentially our heart beat
I agree that he was (and EO was, too), but he was also a foul machine in the first half (as EO was the whole game) - and there's no reason to think that would have changed with a few more minutes, either. He picked up 3 fouls in less than 7 minutes of game time, and he spent a lot of that time on the bench. The refs were calling the game in a way that didn't align with his aggressiveness in the first half.
You have to trust your players. Eugene is one of our best defenders how many times hasn’t he fouled out in his career? Coach K plays guys who pick up an early two. Obviously not saying here that that’s the secret to his success but there is precedent out there when it comes to this matter.
EO needs to be more selective with when he tries to draw a charge. If he's in foul trouble and goes for one of those risky 50/50 calls, it isn't worth it if it goes against him
KenPom tracks 2-foul participation.
https://kenpom.com/blog/introducing-2-foul-participation/
We've been in the lower half (301st, 236th, and now 207th) during Pikiell's three seasons.
Interestingly the percentage has gone up even with theoretically a better bench this year. I'd have guessed that last season's would've been the highest of the three considering how shallow the bench was.
https://kenpom.com/blog/introducing-2-foul-participation/
We've been in the lower half (301st, 236th, and now 207th) during Pikiell's three seasons.
Interestingly the percentage has gone up even with theoretically a better bench this year. I'd have guessed that last season's would've been the highest of the three considering how shallow the bench was.
Good discussion. It depends on how deep your team is, who's in foul trouble, how well they can defend when they're in foul trouble, and whether you'll even get to crunch time if you sit your best players. My hunch is still that coaches are too quick to sit guys. Reflexively doing something to avoid the same thing happening later seems like it should be way more of a situational decision than what we see: "2 fouls, first half, sit."
Analytics have been chipping away at some of the counterproductive strategies in other sports and I think at some point we'll see that coaches need to reconsider, although probably not abandon, this convention.
Agree with whoever said that EO needs to understand that he has to stop looking for contact when he's in foul trouble. Those charge/block calls have very little connection to what actually happened, why risk it
Analytics have been chipping away at some of the counterproductive strategies in other sports and I think at some point we'll see that coaches need to reconsider, although probably not abandon, this convention.
Agree with whoever said that EO needs to understand that he has to stop looking for contact when he's in foul trouble. Those charge/block calls have very little connection to what actually happened, why risk it
It’s just so rare to see guys foul out of games, so let them play on for crying out loud.
I agree that they're probably too reflexively conservative, but "2 fouls, first half, sit" also doesn't have to be for the rest of the half. Both Mathis and Omoruyi came back in the first half after their 2nd foul... unfortunately, Mathis then quickly picked up his 3rd foul and sat the rest of the half. "3 fouls, first half, sit" doesn't seem to be as much of a judgement call. Sometimes sitting after 2 fouls (or after picking up a 3rd early in the second half) is just to cool a player off and help them reset, or to get the refs' attention off of them.
Except EO did foul out in just 18 game minutes this game - and if he hadn't spent time on the bend in the first half, we may not have seen him at all over the last 10-15 min of the game.
One thought......given how often Eugene is getting in early foul trouble maybe Pikiell should consider making him one of the first substitutions of the game. Maybe get Harper Jr. or Carter in the game earlier. I think we all believe the optimal minutes for Eugene is in the 28-32 area. Why not get him 2-3 minutes around or slightly after the first media TO?
Definitely he should be sat after his first foul.
What we don't want to see is Eugene playing in foul trouble and worrying about picking up fouls.
Definitely he should be sat after his first foul.
What we don't want to see is Eugene playing in foul trouble and worrying about picking up fouls.
GRF, I said virtually the same thing to my gf during the game. Wouldn’t mind seeing Gene come off the bench as a change of pace against teams with a big inside presence, after letting our other bigs bang around in the paint for a few minutes.
PS I also think playing Gene at the 3 with Myles at the 5 and Carter at the 4, all three on the floor at the same time, will accomplish the same thing as far as keeping Gene out of foul trouble.
PS I also think playing Gene at the 3 with Myles at the 5 and Carter at the 4, all three on the floor at the same time, will accomplish the same thing as far as keeping Gene out of foul trouble.
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I want him starting AND I want to see us going smaller, not bigger. Unfortunately we don't have enough non-bigs in the rotation that are currently deserving a ton of minutes.
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