They were hojacked by the selection committee in 22-23. None of those teams put in over them really played well to justify their inclusion over RU.
Everyone is complaining about the offense, but ….
- Thread starter Scarlet Shack
- Start date
The issue this year has to do with 2 big Pike decisions that did not turn out well. First, he decided after he couldn’t get Williams or Carr , both ending up with Kentucky , that he would go into the year without a rim protector. If he thought Igbole would become one then that is malpractice. The amount of cleanup Cliff and Myles before him did when our guards got beat and they did get beat , was over the top in blocking shots or the threat of blocking shots. Now opposing players drive to the hoop like the parting of the Red Sea. Not getting a rim protector to play with Manny and Lathan was a huge huge mistake.
The second major mistake as it turned out , was his reliance on his transfers to make an appreciable difference and riding them early , to see almost all Jordan , Zach , PJ fall flat on their faces. He buried Grant and Dorsch because his reliance on Martini. Zach is a few minutes a night player , 15-20 on the high end , and you can make the argument he cost us the Alabama and Texas A&M games. Dylan and ACE played as well as any player or freshman in the country could have played and we still lost because of a few fundamental possessions. He kept on trotting them out when in December and throughout January and they hardly impacted games. Finally , the supporting cast has played a little better , not great or super impactful , but at least adequate the last 5-6 games.
Then all of a sudden ACE after having one of the best January’s that any BIG 10 player has had , has become passive on both ends of the floor in February and coupled with Dylan ( who had the illness and ankle injury to deal with ) have had 2 inexplicable games back to back causing the Iowa and Oregon losses. Nothing has gone right.
Pike betting on himself that he could get players to play defense when his roster includes , PJ , Acuff , Lathan , Jordan , ACE and Dylan , coupled with JMike and Jeremiah getting worse on defense , never happened. They cannot even stay in front of their own man , their sagging onto the paint when their defender goes thru the lane to the 3 point corner and they leave too much space and cannot recover to get out to the 3 point line Has played out over and over. We give up historic great 3 point shooting games to our opponents , whether they were in slumps ( Indiana and Michigan State and Oregon) or just good at it ( Maryland and Iowa ) .
His rotations 26 games in and playing 11 guys is pure lunacy. Why he subbed at the first timeout yesterday at Oregon , was batshit crazy. He has mismanaged the rotations as bad as any year and made the team have a worse record than it actually is . The lack of Senior or upperclass or any player leadership has not surfaced to help him out and he is just swimming now. It has turned into a hot mess.
I will go to war in the Big 10 with Dylan ACE Lathan Dylan Grant and Jeremiah as your starting 5 that are going to play 30 minutes . You have a fighting chance with those 5 and his last act of coaching for these last 5 games is to get all 5 of them attacking offensively. Pike as their coach has to demand defense from those 5 including Dylan and ACE . We can play with most teams with that 5 and stop with the automatic subbing and steal a minute or two around the timeouts. It is the only chance for these last 5.
The second major mistake as it turned out , was his reliance on his transfers to make an appreciable difference and riding them early , to see almost all Jordan , Zach , PJ fall flat on their faces. He buried Grant and Dorsch because his reliance on Martini. Zach is a few minutes a night player , 15-20 on the high end , and you can make the argument he cost us the Alabama and Texas A&M games. Dylan and ACE played as well as any player or freshman in the country could have played and we still lost because of a few fundamental possessions. He kept on trotting them out when in December and throughout January and they hardly impacted games. Finally , the supporting cast has played a little better , not great or super impactful , but at least adequate the last 5-6 games.
Then all of a sudden ACE after having one of the best January’s that any BIG 10 player has had , has become passive on both ends of the floor in February and coupled with Dylan ( who had the illness and ankle injury to deal with ) have had 2 inexplicable games back to back causing the Iowa and Oregon losses. Nothing has gone right.
Pike betting on himself that he could get players to play defense when his roster includes , PJ , Acuff , Lathan , Jordan , ACE and Dylan , coupled with JMike and Jeremiah getting worse on defense , never happened. They cannot even stay in front of their own man , their sagging onto the paint when their defender goes thru the lane to the 3 point corner and they leave too much space and cannot recover to get out to the 3 point line Has played out over and over. We give up historic great 3 point shooting games to our opponents , whether they were in slumps ( Indiana and Michigan State and Oregon) or just good at it ( Maryland and Iowa ) .
His rotations 26 games in and playing 11 guys is pure lunacy. Why he subbed at the first timeout yesterday at Oregon , was batshit crazy. He has mismanaged the rotations as bad as any year and made the team have a worse record than it actually is . The lack of Senior or upperclass or any player leadership has not surfaced to help him out and he is just swimming now. It has turned into a hot mess.
I will go to war in the Big 10 with Dylan ACE Lathan Dylan Grant and Jeremiah as your starting 5 that are going to play 30 minutes . You have a fighting chance with those 5 and his last act of coaching for these last 5 games is to get all 5 of them attacking offensively. Pike as their coach has to demand defense from those 5 including Dylan and ACE . We can play with most teams with that 5 and stop with the automatic subbing and steal a minute or two around the timeouts. It is the only chance for these last 5.
Everyone’s complaining about the offense, but no one’s doing anything about it (including Pikiell)!
The problem, as mentioned in various posts above, is that Pike recruited offensive players from the portal and 5 freshmen (3 known primarily for their offensive prowess, and 2 that ‘weren’t ready’).
So, Pike had to know, for this year at least, he was gonna have to win with offense.
The problem, as mentioned in various posts above, is that Pike recruited offensive players from the portal and 5 freshmen (3 known primarily for their offensive prowess, and 2 that ‘weren’t ready’).
So, Pike had to know, for this year at least, he was gonna have to win with offense.
Ideally? None.
Derkack and his 26.2% 3pt shooting shouldn't have been recruited.
Davis and his 22.2% 3pt shooting shouldn't have been expected to be a contributor.
Just like JWill and his 26.1% 3pt shooting shouldn't have been expected to be a key contributor.
This season was lost in April when the plan was to play these guys.
Reality is the players haven't exactly failed this season.
They have performed exactly as they should have been expected based on their prior seasons.
Who is underperformed against their prior stats? Not fan BS expectations "JWill and Davis will shoot better because I really really hope they will."
Hayes is shooting 33% (down from 40% last year). But it's much fewer attempts than previously (2.3 v. 5.8 attempts per game). I could see an argument with more attempts he could shoot better (get into a rhythm).
Martini is shooting 36.4% from 3.
Prior to this year he was 36.6% from 3.
This why saying it's a "player issue" doesn't make sense. The players are exactly who they were supposed to be.
The Scorpion and the Frog - Wikipedia
I guess you do not believe players get better year over year or only at RU do they get worse? Check around the BIG 10 and look at the teams having success and besides the portals that have worked out , how have the retuning players done compared to the year before. Some of the improvement has been tremendous and a reason they are winning a lot. To think that JMike and Jeremiah and Manny before he was hurt did not get appreciably better and some have gotten worse was not on a bingo card. Players get better from freshman to sophomore to junior years but this latest batch of RU players not do much.Ideally? None.
Derkack and his 26.2% 3pt shooting shouldn't have been recruited.
Davis and his 22.2% 3pt shooting shouldn't have been expected to be a contributor.
Just like JWill and his 26.1% 3pt shooting shouldn't have been expected to be a key contributor.
This season was lost in April when the plan was to play these guys.
Reality is the players haven't exactly failed this season.
They have performed exactly as they should have been expected based on their prior seasons.
Who is underperformed against their prior stats? Not fan BS expectations "JWill and Davis will shoot better because I really really hope they will."
Hayes is shooting 33% (down from 40% last year). But it's much fewer attempts than previously (2.3 v. 5.8 attempts per game). I could see an argument with more attempts he could shoot better (get into a rhythm).
Martini is shooting 36.4% from 3.
Prior to this year he was 36.6% from 3.
This why saying it's a "player issue" doesn't make sense. The players are exactly who they were supposed to be.
The Scorpion and the Frog - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Sure. But it's certainly not a guarantee.
And it certainly shouldn't be relied upon.
JWill over 3 years was a 25% 3pt shooter. Was it reasonable to expect a big jump as a now off ball guard like some were? Not really.
Davis has gotten better the last couple games (when he actually shoots). But he was terrible to start the season - which was to be expected based on 22% last year.
Derkack was poor for multiple years.
It's one thing to benefit from year over year development, it's another to depend upon development from historically poor shooting players.
Is the premise then that HC Pike has the worst luck in the world and just happened to end up with an entire roster of guys who didn't significantly and immediately develop into better players?
That's quite the coincidence.
That's quite the coincidence.
This post nails the issue with Pikiell. That list defines the tenure. You can put up with it for 5 years as you build, which was the case through 2019-2020 but then the expectation would be improvement in each of those areas one by one. Instead, since 2019-2020 its not even been a plateau but rather a regression to the embarrassment put on the floor. Its clear even the players now want the season to end.
But were they really? They may have been had they finished even close to strong. They did not. They got what they deserved that year.
Now check out some jumps from freshman years to sophomore years to junior years at just 3 programs , Purdue , Wisconsin and Ohio State. Major jumps . Not one player stayed the same or got worse. I guess the conclusion is Pike picked the wrong guys. I was expecting a huge jump from Derek Simpson who ended his freshman year on a high note. He bombed his sophomore year when my expectation was he was going to have a breakout year . Now I see 2 freshman that have had decent freshman years considering the minutes they have played and expect a jump next year. Not huge just steady upward trajectory for Dylan Grant and Lathan Somerville. Hope my expectations are not too high but Lathan in non starter minutes has put up 7.4 points and 4.2 rebounds. Dylan Grant in limited minutes has put up 6.1 points and 3.7 rebounds a game. I do not think my expectation that each will score at least double digits and get the rebounding up to 8 a game is unreasonable for next year. Now go get some impact scoring guards to help our freshman next year and the freshman can develop.
Get real you must be a Rutgers hater. They were screwed as 99% of the bracketologists thought they were in especially after they beat Michigan in the first game of the Big 10 tourney. It was shocking and devastating and the ultimate RU screw job. You are a tool if you think otherwise.
I think otherwise. I think that team was good enough to make the tournament but I don’t think its actual resume deserved it. Where they truly got screwed was in the Ohio State game. And they were unlucky with injuries. But leaving them out of the tournament was justified
I like grant on the ball defense a LOT. He really alters shots and positionally plans man defense really well. He has his ups and downs on Rotations as a frosh usually has …but I think he can be a real good defender
Sommwrville …his on the ball defense is also pretty good. He is never going to be a shot blocker ….he is starting to at least learn how to
Use his size some. The team defensive concepts have been a massive struggle for him and how fast he figures that out …will say how effective he will or won’t be
Dortch …shows signs but way too little sample size to know
Not according to 99% of the bracketologists. Was not justified. Committee can make up any shit they want to justify their decision and throw out the other talking points. Like body of work , the entire season . The last 10 games do not really matter. It was all bullshit .
You are of course you are entitled to your opinion but it is contrary to 99% of the people that expected Rutgers in that day. You are a strong 1%.
Teams get left out every year.
Indiana State had a better NET just last year and got left out.
Rutgers isn't that special. There isn't a grand conspiracy.
It happens every year.
Just keeping it real. They had a chance to finish strong and they fate was their to control. They blew it so they left it in someone else's hand. That's the harsh reality of subjective selections for post season play in college sports. And we are not a blueblood so we don' have the luxury of "the benefit of the doubt." It sucks but reality does bite when you are in our situation. Control what you can control and the rest sorts itself out.
In 2022-23 we lost 6 of our last 8 and split the Big Ten Tourney games. That includes losses to Minnesota and Nebraska, who finished just behind us, and to Michigan and Illinois, who just finished ahead of us. Other loses were to Northwestern, who were decent that year and Indiana (No. 18). The control as to just take any two of those and it was clear they were in. But that's not how it ended so they were at the mercy of the odds that they lost.
And no need to call anyone a tool if they don't agree with you.
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Not to a Power 5 team. They will screw the mid majors which is what Indiana State is. The Big 10 along with the Big 12 have been the top conferences for the last 5 years and the ACC has declined but the SEC the last 2 years has ascended to the top this year.
Yeah we also beat Purdue and Wisconsin and Penn State on the road , all tourney teams , and avenged the Michigan loss in the first round of the Tourney , another tourney team . We finished 10-10 in the Big 10 . Yes we lost some games down the stretch including Northwestern another tourney team but it was almost consensus that Rutgers still did enough to get it at about 97% of the bracketologists and after beating Michigan in the tourney , it went to 99% of them. You must have been a big part of that 1% of the crowd that yelled “ No Rutgers this year.
No one that was picked deserved to be in ahead of us and all had losing streaks or flaws and didn’t have the wins we had nor the screw job at Ohio State that the committee had a chance to consider and correct the improper ref move but did not. Leaving it in the hands of the committee doesn’t mean you expect them to leave their common sense at home.
Sorry didn’t mean to call you a tool but found it incredulous that you are in the 1% versus the consensus 99% who thought Rutgers was in , and you only looked at negatives and never considered the positives.
Lathan guarding the opposite center on the block has become a shot blocker. Not a rim protector that guards have a hard time getting shots off but his one on one defense has resulted in a number of blocks . His pick and roll defense is weak and needs a lot of work.
I don't get a vote. Never have and never will. Just calling what was observed. Those wins you point to do matter and were big. However, the committee while they say "body of work" in the last decade or so seems to have skewed weighting the second half of the year more so than the first half of the year. Given February slide that gave the committee and easy excuse. We had chances to remove that excuse that the committee seemed to search for to remove us. We didn't do it and they pounced to kick us out. Moreover, we didn't help our own cause thereafter by losing to Hofstra in the NIT in the first round. I can see a smug committee member point to that and say "we made the right call" whether we like it or not.
It doesn’t make someone a Rutgers hater because they think different than you. 97 or 99% those bracketologists weren’t the committee. We didn’t make it. And you can’t say the last ten games were BS. That was the closest to what the committee was going to get for that tourney. And it was horrid. Complete collapse and I’m sorry Mag or not that Minne should have been won. I still cringe at Hyatt passing the ball backward from the middle of the floor when all he had to do was turn and beat the press himself. Bless the rains. If you’re unbiased, not a hater, you can see why that circus/shell of a team was left out. They looked terrible vs Hofstra to prove it. But you’ll probably make the excuse “they were so heartbroken they didn’t have the toughness left to show some pride and beat a local inferior team”
You are certainly entitled to your 1% opinion for what it’s worth. If you do not know how the committee works , they decided we were out and come out with reasons to try and justify which contradicts what they did the year before and what they claimed were the criteria. If 99% of the people say you were wrong but you think you were right , then maybe you evaluate your opinion. Common sense.
I didn’t say a poster was a Rutgers hater because they have a different opinion than me. It was they had an opinion that was contrary to the 99% of the people that do that for a living . Almost no one had his opinion and only a poster with a history of anti Pike posts on this board would come to that conclusion . Guess what you and him have a lot in common.
in 2022/2023 yes we certainly should have made the NCAA tourney .
You know I used to feel like you. I was pissed we didn’t make it. But then as I took my RU blinders off, looked at it objectively, we sucked down the stretch for more than a few games. Including and especially that loss in Minne. That team that played those last 8 games wasn’t a tournament team. Now I see the problems we have today and I see that Feb mar 2023 was really the beginning of our demise.
See here's the thing:
The fact that ~all of the bracketologists had us in speaks to a problem with the committee and their criteria; essentially they do not consistently follow it. So from that standpoint I agree with @goru7 ; if 95%+ of independent analysts, using the criteria published by committee, predict Rutgers should be in then they really probably should be in (under their criteria).
Where I agree with @darkcheck is that I don't fully agree with the committee criteria and under my own criteria I wouldn't have included Rutgers in 22/23.
me too!!!!
i Wonder why this is A thing we Both agree on.
8 years? Did you forgot about last season when the team literally quit and we couldn't get rid of the entire roster fast enough. Or the year before that when the wheels fell off the bus down the stretch. This is a multi year ongoing theme now. And this seasons disaster should count for even more given the stakes and that we are now national laughing stocks.
Pikes best work is now long behind him. I don't see how he turns it around going forward in this era. I gave him credit early on for the job he did. It was never great, but given the lift involved, it was very impressive overall. He was well rewarded for it. But he is not fixing this team or next year's either. Or the season after that. Which is why I have been consistently saying I think it's time for a change. Thank Pike for the lift he did, but we have seen his ceiling. Let someone else more equipped come finish the lift before it gets any heavier.
I don't see us being more than a perennial bottom 5 B1G level team under Pike going forward. That's not good enough. To need to wait another 2 or 3 years simply because of money kinda really sucks as a fan.
Who under Pike has really developed into a better player? Ron and Caleb certainly. Myles too. Geo was interesting. I thought he played his best early in his career and never seemed to find another level. Or even really reach that one consistently. PM never really got much better. Cliff was so raw he had to improve by default. But he never developed any offensive game. There have also been so many recruiting misses that most washed out early in their careers. I am sure there may be a few others that I have missed who Pike did develop, but it feels like a really short list over 9 years. I am not sure the notion of Pike as the great developer is really as true as people want to believe.
The offense has been the least of the problems as defense has cost us a number of games. What is an interesting question and puzzling as well, what in the world has happened to Dylan and ACE the last 2 games , and 3 games with ACE but that was Maryland where he got sick second half but was not himself before that . Freshman wall? But the passitivity from both and deferral has been confusing and baffling. Lathan and Dylan Grant are giving you contributions from the supporting cast , so getting Dylan and ACE back to form immediately would really help win some games down the stretch.
I mean we scored 57pts
24 in the 2nd half.
That's a problem.
Not saying the defense isn't also problem - but scoring 57pts is a real problem.
Big Ten games:
71.6ppg scored (16th out of 18)
76.9ppg against (13th out of 18)
24 in the 2nd half.
That's a problem.
Not saying the defense isn't also problem - but scoring 57pts is a real problem.
Big Ten games:
71.6ppg scored (16th out of 18)
76.9ppg against (13th out of 18)
Sunday was an outlier scoring only 57 as you cited our average of 71. My question to you is truly an answer to the offensive struggles and it is baffling.
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