Football stadium
- Thread starter Rutgersnj201
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GEEZ, the OP just asked for some "concept photos," while everyone else jumps on this build or no build debate. Calm down.
BTW, love the Death Star photo...
How in the world would it add 3,500 seats? Think about it for a second. A football field is 53 yard wide. So let's say the north endzone is 60 yards wide. That would fit 120 18' seats per row. That not even taking aisle into consideration. To get 3,500 extra seats you would have to add an additional 30 rows to a section that already has 42 rows. Tell me how you are going to repitch the stands and get 72 rows? If they had the room no one would want those seats because they rise would only be about 6 inches so many people wouldn't be able to see in front of the person I front of them. In addition this would all be done for some hypothetical expansion that might never happen or at the very least be decades down the line. This all during a period of time where attendance is falling at live sporting events. That money would be far better spent improving the current facilities for fans allowing you to charge more for the current seats.
That doesn't mean it was a good idea. What you have to factor is the prices and donations that you could have charged vs the additional seat sales minus the debt service.
The lot of us need to realize 60-65K (as a ceiling) should not be considered a failure.
As some have mentioned already...nice things on the West side and maybe a regrade on the North side but that's about it IMO.
As some have mentioned already...nice things on the West side and maybe a regrade on the North side but that's about it IMO.
Then where would the additional revenue vs cost be? Regrading is not going to add that many additional seats. Your essentially going to rebuild a section of the stadium for maybe a gain of 1500 seats. Your probably looking at a cost of $80-$90 million in NJ. Even at $80,000 that is $60k per seat. I
In no way was it not a good idea. One, it helped show commitment which led to the B1G invite. Two, I believe we only need to have 70% attendance to make the expansion profitable. Also, our AD has added seat donation requirements to all these seats which is revenue the school had not intended on at the time of expansion. You guys sell out one game a year and have a good number of games where your actual attendance is the low 90's if not even lower. If it's all about demand maybe you guys should make your stadium smaller?
As others have said, the regrading would also add structure to allow decking of the North end, which is not possible otherwise. Obviously the regrading alone makes no economic sense. So, I would be shocked if we regraded without the decking go ahead, complete with waitlisted season tix for the deck. Doesn't make sense to do one and not the other.
And yes, this convo is about 10 years too soon.
Yes Penn State has expended beyond the demand. I do think downsizing the stadium is a good idea. Penn State was at 93% capacity last year for the season while Rutgers was at 91% capacity. It would be silly for Penn State to be talking expansion just like it is silly for Rutgers.
They can add another deck with out rebuilding below it. It been done at many places across the country. Both upper decks at Penn State are free standing structures. Even if they had to rebuild it you don't do a project for a hypothetical next expansion. You do it when you are ready for that expansion.
As I remember when the North EZ was in the plans back in 2008, your 1500 seat number is close to correct although it didn't cut the cost by anything near $80 million. I seem to remember the reduction in cost for all the eliminated improvements such as this North EZ, additional entrance gate, ramps, and locker rooms was in the $25-30 million neighborhood.
One upgrade should be an overhead cover for the upper decks on the sidelines, how many times does the threat of rain/snow keeps the stadium crowd significantly down? Unfortunately weather plays a big part on attendance, maybe a lot more fans would buy tickets to all games if they knew they be protected from the elements? Some covered structures might also improve the sound quality of the stadium, keeping the noise confined to inside the stadium, making it a more hostile environment...
Hey, what can I tell, talk to the engineers. Would a cash poor RU in a potentially toxic political environment spending millions of $ for no reason? Maybe, but heads would roll.
The original plans did not call for regrading of the entire end of the stadium. It called for additional rows added to ground level in the north endzone.
Regrading of the North Endzone was included in the last expansion plans, was estimated around $15 million, and had to be eliminated due to the huge PR flap over the expansion (And that's a whole other story!).
Regrading of the endzone accomplishes several things, the least being the addition of 1500 seats. The current endzone was built over the old stadium which was really a slapdash approach, so regrading would correct that. (And, yes, the 1993 expansion was also cut back.) And, as someone else has mentioned, regrading would allow them to put in the supports for an upper deck, which falls into the long range plan.
I would expect the regrading to be tacked on to another portion of the planned expansion, rather than as a separate, standalone project.
I doubt that what the engineers said. I think it urban legend. I am sure they did some concept drawings of future plans but not the actual engineering. Unless there was some sort of fault or bedrock was too deep it makes zero sense.
That makes zero sense. Supports for an upper deck would not be located under the current seats. The supports would be behind it. Think about it for a second. Do you think they would have support beams in the middle of the seats? They would be cantilevered over the existing seats and the support would be behind.
I agree with everything about future expansion but disagree that our prior expansion was too soon. It was necessary to add the amenities & seats, even if we don't sell out all games.
As for what a deck on the South End might look like...think VT. The part on the left.
As for the North End there is no "there" underneath like the new South End. Somebody already mentioned this. Lots of work ($$$$$$) and possibly lose the pass thru part of Sutphen Road (upper right in the pic).
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No need for either IMO. If the 65K+/- neighborhood is good enough for the NFL. It should be more than good enough for Rutgers.
As for the North End there is no "there" underneath like the new South End. Somebody already mentioned this. Lots of work ($$$$$$) and possibly lose the pass thru part of Sutphen Road (upper right in the pic).
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No need for either IMO. If the 65K+/- neighborhood is good enough for the NFL. It should be more than good enough for Rutgers.
You make some good points but if you are saying the actual engineering for the proposed 2nd deck in the south EZ wasn't done, that's incorrect.
I have a neighbor who was a long time member of the Steelworker's Union that built the stadium in the 90's and also the '08 expansion. '08 was his last project before retirement. Yes there were bedrock issues as many of us remember hearing at the time and yes, according to him they did set the infrastructure for a 2nd deck.
I'm no construction guy. I'm just repeating what I was told by someone who was there, on site, every day.
In order to adequately support and spread the tremendous loading and ground settlement that is imposed and caused by a stadium's second deck of seating, respectively, the foundation for the first deck and/or bowl must be designed and constructed differently. Depending on the existing geotechnical soil/clay/bedrock conditions, various combinations of piles and concrete spread footings are used in an area that totals tens of thousands of square feet.
I am not sure about PSU's erector-set stadium, but the existing north endzone seating for Rutgers Stadium was neither designed nor built to support a second deck on top. Attempting to bolt on a second deck to our stadium's north endzone without modifying the foundation and reinforcing the structure below (during which time the north endzone could be regraded to match the new south endzone as well) would overload the existing steel and/or concrete substructure to the point of increasing structural damage over time due to creep below, and additionally cause cracking throughout due to the inevitable settlement of the underlying red clay as a result of the unanticipated increased loading. On the converse side, the south endzone constructed in 2008-2009 was set on both a foundation and steel support structure already engineered to support the loading from both a lower and upper deck, so it would be quite a bit simpler to simply erect an upper deck on top of it.
For someone who is so ignorant about the complexities of structural and geotechnical engineering, you sure seem to argue quite vociferously on this matter.
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Lets first start winning B1G games on a regular basis before any action on increasing seating.There are too many empty seats now and the student body has been no shows at games near the end of the season.
I don't Think anybody is saying that it's going to happen anytime soon. Relax everybody.
I guess PSU engineering school is second rate.[roll] Otherwise, PSU_NUT would realized steps were taken to add to the stadium if the time comes for expansion. It's only been mentioned here a million times since mid 2000s.
Not a bad idea to do something like the upper deck covering/roof similar to Sun Life Stadium in Miami. Plus, it will enhance the home field advantage by keeping more noise in the stadium. My upgrade priorities:
1. New club/boxes on visitor side,
2. New gigantic video board on the North side (ideally a matching one on the South side but it's likely cost prohibitive with our finances to do both at the same time),
3. WiFi,
4. Distributed sound system.
We should also add red LED block Rs outside the stadium, especially on River Road.
65k is likely pushing it in this market. It may be splitting hairs but I don't see a need to ever go above 60k, maybe as high as 62k. The trend has been to reduce capacity in stadiums: Sun Devil Stadium cut from 71,706 to 64,248 & it was up to 74,865 at its peak, Stanford cut from 85,500 to 50,000, remodeled Soldier Field cut from 66,944 to 61,500, Baylor's new stadium cut from 50,000 to 45,140 but is expandable to 55,000, Sun Life cut from 75,000 to 65,000, Georgia Tech cut from 58,121 to 46,000 (yeah it was a while ago), & others have cut as well. Nonetheless, expansion isn't likely in the next 10 years.As for what a deck on the South End might look like...think VT. The part on the left.
As for the North End there is no "there" underneath like the new South End. Somebody already mentioned this. Lots of work ($$$$$$) and possibly lose the pass thru part of Sutphen Road (upper right in the pic).
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No need for either IMO. If the 65K+/- neighborhood is good enough for the NFL. It should be more than good enough for Rutgers.
First, can we just designate someone on this board to start a thread about expansion once a month? It's the same ol' speculation and argument all the time when there clearly is no need to expand, nor is there the money for expansion. You build a stadium for you to pack your home fans, not for visitors from rival schools.
Second, I constantly hear about this Deathstar idea, but how'd it start? This is an idea I can get behind. We should pack all the students in there since it can be climate controlled and offer panoramic views of the field. Hoping for students to show up in the actual stadium is such a waste of space. They'll never come consistently.
Second, I constantly hear about this Deathstar idea, but how'd it start? This is an idea I can get behind. We should pack all the students in there since it can be climate controlled and offer panoramic views of the field. Hoping for students to show up in the actual stadium is such a waste of space. They'll never come consistently.
If you count RU and UMd as new, the 3 newest stadiums in the B1G are all between 52,000 and 54,000. Illinois has reduced seating by 8,000 over the past decade or so but still doesn't come close to 80% of capacity.
Stadium size is an ego thing. What matters is how many people show up and that's a major issue at many schools like RU.
Preaching to the choir, my man.
Just thru out the 65k figure to calm the masses. I am with you on the 60k to 62k as a max. Which again, is not to be considered a failure.
For aesthetics and symmetry alone I'd like to see the regrade of the North End and make the four end sections up top be full ones instead of just half sections.
Do those two and the luxury boxes on the West Side (plus your scoreboard) and I am good forever.
By regrading and moving the seating closer to the stadium will add those 1500 seats. However, at the time of the regrading, they will put in the footings required to add an upper deck in that end zone.
I'd say we'll have the luxury boxes done first, which I believe add 500-750 to the capacity. Those are a cash cow, they would have been done back in the 2009-2011 timeframe if the economy hadn't tanked. This will also involve a rebuild of the press box.
The next step is the South Endzone deck, which will add an estimated 8.5K.
So add these two additions into the roughly 52.5K capacity and that brings us to ~61.5K. And given that we seem to squeeze in another 1.5K for sellouts, we'd be looking at a record crowd of around 63K after these expansions.
So what would it take? The three years prior to 2006 we averaged 30506/game. Once 2006 happened, our average attendance jumped by 12K to 42506 (06-08). Once the stadium was expanded, up until our first season in the Big Ten we averaged 46896 (09-13), so we were roughly at 89% of capacity. For our first 2 seasons in the Big Ten, which isn't a great sample size, we've averaged 49066 (93.5% capacity). Say we had a 2006'ish year, where we once again caught the eye of the New York metropolitan area. Would we see a similar leap in attendance?
The next step is the South Endzone deck, which will add an estimated 8.5K.
So add these two additions into the roughly 52.5K capacity and that brings us to ~61.5K. And given that we seem to squeeze in another 1.5K for sellouts, we'd be looking at a record crowd of around 63K after these expansions.
So what would it take? The three years prior to 2006 we averaged 30506/game. Once 2006 happened, our average attendance jumped by 12K to 42506 (06-08). Once the stadium was expanded, up until our first season in the Big Ten we averaged 46896 (09-13), so we were roughly at 89% of capacity. For our first 2 seasons in the Big Ten, which isn't a great sample size, we've averaged 49066 (93.5% capacity). Say we had a 2006'ish year, where we once again caught the eye of the New York metropolitan area. Would we see a similar leap in attendance?
You're right about a second expansion, but have no idea what you're talking about concerning the first.
For 1 year, maybe 2 yes. It's the concern of maintaining it thru down years that makes it a dangerous proposition. If I was in charge I'd add maybe 4-6 luxury boxes on either side of the current press box and see how that goes before making any other improvements.
I don't see the need for another huge scoreboard. Maybe something a bit more elaborate than what's there now. Probably should have moved the old one over.
bingo but there will be some that come here and scold you for not seeing the potential of Rutgers becoming another Penn State all the while ignoring all the factors that will cap our fanbase and attendance even if we were winning at a high level
I agree that we need sustained sellouts for many years (4-6 yrs, maybe more) before expanding, but I disagree that we don't need another huge videoboard, as you have to enhance the experience to compete with TV & for someone's entertainment $ & time.
Many stadiums are enhancing the in game experience with more & better & bigger videoboards, WiFi, better sound systems, etc because they're competing with people staying home or going to a bar to watch on TV. People want big videoboards, good sound & wireless connectivity. Giant videoboards are a must. People also want good quality food& options.
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