For the first time since Bannon or maybe longer...

[satnom]

I'm going to keep repeating this until I'm blue in the face I think--I happened to have liked GW when I met him--but he did not have RU on the right track. He was at RU for 5 years with no NCAA to speak of, and the 6th year was going to be awful. we had for the 1st time in ages a bonafide 1st round NBA player and we still couldn't parlay that into an NCAA bid. Douby was not a super high recruit, he blossomed late IIRC. Beating SHOE and SJU for a recruit back then was not that big a deal like it would have been since we really took a dump into the crapper after the Rice fiasco.

The thing is after GW things got worse so people are always pining for those "good ol' days" where we were competitive. Don't let our more recent disasters cloud your judgement on GW. He took over an RU program that was not great, but not a bottom feeder either. And he didn't get us to the NCAAs in 5 years and the the 6th year, had he stayed , would have been his least talented team ever due to his complete inability to recruit.

Argue over how he was fired if you must. I personally was very disappointed he went to Kent and missed our game when we all knew inclement weather was on the way. Doesn't change that fact that he would have had 6 years with no NCAA in sight

He got his chance, he didn't succeed, it was time to move on.

Usually like your posts but this one is off the mark. No one knows what GW would have done in year six. The guy could coach but was a Midwest guy that didn't want to participate in the shenanigans of NJ high school recruiting. Not to mention dealing with the Fred Hill Jr coach in waiting hire on his staff. RU could have done a lot worse than giving Gary another year. On second thought it did by hiring FHJ. When I was living in DC I was happy as heck to be watching RU almost win the NIT under Gary. Again he may not have been the long term solution for the program but he had RU playing the best brand of basketball since 2016 when Coach Pikiell came along.

GO RU

 

[NickyNewark51]

No I can't.

I am lookinsg at building the program to eventually win. Realistic to know winning at a high level is a process.

Again, it is most likely than not that today a top 150 kid we lanrealize and respect where we are at on the totem poll TODAY.

B

 

[MADHAT1]

Usually like your posts but this one is off the mark. No one knows what GW would have done in year six. The guy could coach but was a Midwest guy that didn't want to participate in the shenanigans of NJ high school recruiting. Not to mention dealing with the Fred Hill Jr coach in waiting hire on his staff. RU could have done a lot worse than giving Gary another year. On second thought it did by hiring FHJ. When I was living in DC I was happy as heck to be watching RU almost win the NIT under Gary. Again he may not have been the long term solution for the program but he had RU playing the best brand of basketball since 2016 when Coach Pikiell came along.

GO RU

Hindsight about keeping GW is right because hiring Freddie proved worse.
But if Gary kept true to form he might have had a losing season in year 6.
Seems like he had a losing record every other year winning in year 1-3 & 5
while losing in 2 and 4.
Waters was a good HC, but not good ( 28-52)enough to make RU MBB a force in the BE.
By the time GW was forced out , a lot of RU MBB fans wanted him replaced.
The way he was treated on the way out was a chicken-$#1t move by Mulcahy and Gary's replacement proved to be a failure, but it was time for GW to go and the writing on the wall should have been noticed the moment Mulcahy hired Freddie as Gary's assistant.

I think only a NCAA bid would have saved GW, but an early exit might have given Mulcahy the excuse he was looking for because, in my opinion, Hill wasn't hired to remain Waters assistant but replace him at the end of season

 

[RutgHoops]

No I can't.

I am looking at building the program to eventually win. Realistic to know winning at a high level is a process.

Again, it is most likely than not that today a top 150 kid we land has warts. You have to realize and respect where we are at on the totem poll TODAY.

Playing really hard is a skill. It seems to me those around some of the talented kids we are after recognize that if their kid plays really hard and is well coached he's got a shot. Plus Knight and Hobbs have been known for over a decade as plus recruiters.

This is exactly what I was hoping for when this staff was assembled. I know it's natural to see all things Rutgers hoops thru a cynical lens, but this seems different.

 

[knights1212]

Don't forget Jay Young. He has done an amazing job with our centers & forwards and he can recruit as well. All of our coaches contribute a lot to our team.

 

[RUsojo]

I'm going to keep repeating this until I'm blue in the face I think--I happened to have liked GW when I met him--but he did not have RU on the right track. He was at RU for 5 years with no NCAA to speak of, and the 6th year was going to be awful. we had for the 1st time in ages a bonafide 1st round NBA player and we still couldn't parlay that into an NCAA bid. Douby was not a super high recruit, he blossomed late IIRC. Beating SHOE and SJU for a recruit back then was not that big a deal like it would have been since we really took a dump into the crapper after the Rice fiasco.

The thing is after GW things got worse so people are always pining for those "good ol' days" where we were competitive. Don't let our more recent disasters cloud your judgement on GW. He took over an RU program that was not great, but not a bottom feeder either. And he didn't get us to the NCAAs in 5 years and the the 6th year, had he stayed , would have been his least talented team ever due to his complete inability to recruit.

Argue over how he was fired if you must. I personally was very disappointed he went to Kent and missed our game when we all knew inclement weather was on the way. Doesn't change that fact that he would have had 6 years with no NCAA in sight

He got his chance, he didn't succeed, it was time to move on.

Was Douby not one of the last picks in the first round IIRC? Not a "bonafide nba 1st rounder" hence not sticking in the league.

 

[PatrickRU92]

Was Douby not one of the last picks in the first round IIRC? Not a "bonafide nba 1st rounder" hence not sticking in the league.

he was still a 1st rounder, even if later in the round which indeed makes him a bonafide 1st rounder

there are tons of 1st round picks who don't make it in the NBA

 

[knights1212]

I thought he was like the #19 pick. I don't think he was one of the last in the first round. Sacramento never really gave him much of a chance as they went with the guys who were there before him. He played 3 years in the NBA as he played for Toronto in year three. I have always felt that if he was with the Knicks or the Nets or some other teams he could have done much better. He went to China and led the league in scoring and had the most points ever in one of their playoff games. He also made a lot of money in his career.

 

[NJDOVES]

Playing really hard is a skill. It seems to me those around some of the talented kids we are after recognize that if their kid plays really hard and is well coached he's got a shot. Plus Knight and Hobbs have been known for over a decade as plus recruiters.

This is exactly what I was hoping for when this staff was assembled. I know it's natural to see all things Rutgers hoops thru a cynical lens, but this seems different.

To your point, this is a great staff. I can't recall all of the staff for Bannon, FHJ, Rice Or GW but RU AD's have always been notorious for being cheap. I think with a great staff these guys would have been much more successful. Same applies to football.
Glad to see Hobbs recognizing the value of a really great staff for football and basket ball.

 

[MADHAT1]

Was Douby not one of the last picks in the first round IIRC? Not a "bonafide nba 1st rounder" hence not sticking in the league.

Quincy lasted 3 years after being drafted #19 ( of 28 picks) in 2006 by Sacramento , not a long NBA career but he did last three until being waived. Played a few games for Toronto his fourth ( two 10 day contracts) , but not the whole season
Might not have had a long NBA career, but has enough talent to still be playing 11 years after leaving Rutgers and believe he signed on to play fora team in Turkey in January of this year after it's season started .
Ia you check some of those drafted ahead of him, you'll find short careers as well.
Being good enough to be drafted in the 1st round by a NBA team is hard enough, but staying in that league for many years is even harder.

 

[RUsojo]

Quincy lasted 3 years after being drafted #19 ( of 28 picks) in 2006 by Sacramento , not a long NBA career but he did last three until being waived. Played a few games for Toronto his fourth ( two 10 day contracts) , but not the whole season
Might not have had a long NBA career, but has enough talent to still be playing 11 years after leaving Rutgers and believe he signed on to play fora team in Turkey in January of this year after it's season started .
Ia you check some of those drafted ahead of him, you'll find short careers as well.
Being good enough to be drafted in the 1st round by a NBA team is hard enough, but staying in that league for many years is even harder.

My mistake I thought he just barely reached the guaranteed contract.

 

[MADHAT1]

My mistake I thought he just barely reached the guaranteed contract.

Looks like he played till guarantee was over and then waived..
In the 2006 Draft it was three years guaranteed contract for first rounders, 2007 1st round draft choices had only 2 years guaranteed.
But that doesn't take away the fact that Quincy was good enough to get a shot at an NBA career with a guaranteed contract because an NBA team thought he was worth drafting in the first round.

 

[RW90]

Also regarding Waters, Jerome Coleman had one of the best 3 point shooting seasons a junior college player ever had here. That and we never got to see the much hyped Waters' pressure. Those days we were winning games more with our shooting (Shields, Coleman, Douby) than rebounding and defense.

 

[willisneverrana43]

That said, here are how many Rivals 150 players were listed as committing to each school in the conference over the last 4 seasons (2014-2017):

11 - Michigan St, Ohio St
9 - Maryland
8 - Indiana, Purdue
7 - Illinois, Nebraska
6 - Michigan, Minnesota
5 - Wisconsin
4 - Northwestern, Iowa, PA St
2 - Rutgers

. . . .

Bingo Long and his all stars. Saying we've gotten top 150 players is to say nothing. You need enough of them, not just some ore even one per year. Enough of them to roster a team and bench, and enough to account for the inevitable misses. And then you need a coach who doesn't blow it all up or slowly erode it away.

Same thing goes for ratings. Saying that highly rated players mean nothing is missing it too. It's not the ratings. I don't trust a single guy who works at Rivals or who posts on this board to judge a recruit's viability. Not one. The best metric I've seen is offers, which suggest what the people who are paid and highly incentivized to get good players and win think. And, for the most part, ratings reflect offers, or at least what's publicly findable about offers. It's not perfect, but it's way better than a post from Joe from Cranford who saw the guy play 10 games or watched his film.

As to Loyal's point, I hope you're feeling is right. I like Pikiell as a coach. But I remember liking Bannon even Rice early on. For me, it's way to early to be sure. But so far so good. And you're right. He'll have to get good players.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

This is where I disagree. I think that had been true for a long time. What this staff has changed is that in the current environment we can recruit top line guys who plan to be in college for a while.
Loyal

I just don't see how this coaching staff can get elite talent here July 2017. Likeability and belief in a coaching staff is huge. However playing in front of fans and playing in the NCAA tournament is going to be a prerequisite for the elite player.

 

[Loyal_2RU]

To be sure we are talking about the same players, I am not talking about the one and done, or even the top 5-10 or 15 players.

I am talking about that next level, the high level 3 or 4 year players. Some of them feel that they will be the ones to get the program to NCAA, especially if they came with others.

The kids who we are targeting now. Say Montez Mathis. And others of his level. Really fine and talented basketball players.

For the first time in recent history, I think we can get that level player here without requiring special circumstances of some sort.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I think, hope i am wrong, you are underestimating how hard it is going to be to rebuild.

Need
1. Practice facility close to completion
2. Continued improvement on the court
3. More fans

 

[higgins3]

I think, hope i am wrong, you are underestimating how hard it is going to be to rebuild.

Need
1. Practice facility close to completion
2. Continued improvement on the court
3. More fans

I agree, it will take a little bit. Nonetheless, I am curious as to what is your idea of a rebuild?Where does it have to have Rutgers basketball?I think the program will be in the top 8 consistently within 4-5 years, if they have a similar staff. What is your time line?

 

[RUMountie]

Usually like your posts but this one is off the mark. No one knows what GW would have done in year six. The guy could coach but was a Midwest guy that didn't want to participate in the shenanigans of NJ high school recruiting. Not to mention dealing with the Fred Hill Jr coach in waiting hire on his staff. RU could have done a lot worse than giving Gary another year. On second thought it did by hiring FHJ. When I was living in DC I was happy as heck to be watching RU almost win the NIT under Gary. Again he may not have been the long term solution for the program but he had RU playing the best brand of basketball since 2016 when Coach Pikiell came along.

GO RU

I liked Coach Waters and thought he was a good coach and a good man. However, his recruiting was not gonna get us to the consistent NCAA tournament level we should expect from this program given our history, location and conference affiliation. Rutgers needs a great coach who can both coach and recruit to overcome all of the negatives associated with the program, many of them self-inflicted. If Coach Waters was that guy he would have been snatched up by a top program by now. His departure was completely mishandled and indicative of the neglect the basketball program has experienced since the the Final Four appearance but Coach Waters had to go eventually if we wanted to make progress.
Of course Fred Hill should not have been the coach to replace Coach Waters but we never do things the easy way at RU.

BTW: Meant to add that I believe Pikiell is the great coach and his staff that we have been waiting for.

 

[BKIn118]

Ahhh I love the smell of revisionism in the evening!

Douby is still playing ball btw.. as are many of our guys from the recent past. He led his team in scoring in the Turkish A League. Broke a finger on his shooting hand late in the year.

Hell, Jeff Greer just retired THIS SEASON after a long career in the upper divisions in France.

 

[higgins3]

Ahhh I love the smell of revisionism in the evening!

Douby is still playing ball btw.. as are many of our guys from the recent past. He led his team in scoring in the Turkish A League. Broke a finger on his shooting hand late in the year.

Hell, Jeff Greer just retired THIS SEASON after a long career in the upper divisions in France.

BK, I trust you are having a great summer. Any timeline to that news you mentioned last week?You know I have to try!

Hope all is well!

 

[BKIn118]

BK, I trust you are having a great summer. Any timeline to that news you mentioned last week?You know I have to try!

Hope all is well!

Afraid not...

I've found it best to let these things happen organically. I never sweat recruits until I see them in our uniform. Been let down too many times...

Believe me....as soon as there is real news to report, you won't be able to miss it

 

[RUonBrain]

Waters was a mediocre coach. He seemed better than he was because Hill was horrific and all of our other coaches since Young have been bad. Pikiell shows promise but it's still too early to tell if he will break the mold.

Not too early.
He will.

 

[Loyal_2RU]

Waters was a mediocre coach. He seemed better than he was because Hill was horrific and all of our other coaches since Young have been bad. Pikiell shows promise but it's still too early to tell if he will break the mold.

A good coach, I think. Not a star, but solid, professional, successful coach.
He would have succeeded (got us to NCAA) here given enough time. Whether or not that is ambitious enough is important to discuss. But for us it would have been a huge step forward.

He was treated badly in an ugly coup with predictable and unhappy consequences.
Loyal

 

[Mr Magoo]

I agree that he was treated badly but I'm not so sure he would have gotten us to the NCAAs. His recruiting was going south and everyone was caught up with Hill's recruiting prowess at the time. Still, no excuse to treat Waters the way we did.

Who knew that Hill couldn't coach himself out of a paper bag. I remember meeting Hill at a high school banquet. He spoke quickly and couldn't bolt out of there fast enough. In my brief conversation with him, I came away thinking he was an arrogant ass.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I agree, it will take a little bit. Nonetheless, I am curious as to what is your idea of a rebuild?Where does it have to have Rutgers basketball?I think the program will be in the top 8 consistently within 4-5 years, if they have a similar staff. What is your time line?

top 8 consistently in B1G means $3,000,000 for Pikiell which has to mean 8,000 season ticket holders, which has to mean prime seats would pay 4-5X what they pay now.

I don't believe in timelines. I also need to see a LOT more until I have high confidence that Pikiell is the one.

Not getting ahead of things, but I really hope that the revenue would come almost instantly with success on the court. The minute Pikiell (or anyone) gets us to NCAAs there is 5 years $15,000,000 contract offer waiting for him.

 

[RUMountie]

A good coach, I think. Not a star, but solid, professional, successful coach.
He would have succeeded (got us to NCAA) here given enough time. Whether or not that is ambitious enough is important to discuss. But for us it would have been a huge step forward.

He was treated badly in an ugly coup with predictable and unhappy consequences.
Loyal

5 years is not enough time to get an NCAA bid?

 

[Loyal_2RU]

5 years is not enough time to get an NCAA bid?

For some programs not. And in some circumstances not.

Let me put it to you this way. Picture where we were just before Pike was hired. Do you think we would have been at a lower point had Waters been retained?

Or go back to when Eddie was hired. How about then?

Changes can always be for the better or worse.

Again, I don't want to re-litigate GW and his tenure here. I am just saying he was a good professional coach who has been to the NCAA at other places, was a game away here, and would have gotten us there eventually with time. I'm not saying that it is enough.

Loyal

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

5 years is not enough time to get an NCAA bid?

Depends on the way it is built.

Doucore, his 1st legitimate class to recruit, will be a senior in Year 6

 

[dpwhite]

Five years is not enough in this situation. I don't think it was in Gary's either after having to clean up afternoon bannon.

 

[RutgHoops]

I...His recruiting was going south and everyone was caught up with Hill's recruiting prowess at the time. Still, no excuse to treat Waters the way we did.

Who knew that Hill couldn't coach himself out of a paper bag. I remember meeting Hill at a high school banquet. He spoke quickly and couldn't bolt out of there fast enough. In my brief conversation with him, I came away thinking he was an arrogant ass.

Waters' last class included Inman, Farmer and Griffin, all of who were Rivals Top 150 players. And he had Hamady signed for the following year. That's four for four of Top 150 kids as he walked out the door.

Waters was close with Rutgers three times and (in my opinion) really close twice. No one else has gotten closer since 1991. And Gary played really, really good competition day in/day out--year in/year out. Gary was a pretty good HC.

 

[RutgHoops]

Five years is not enough in this situation. I don't think it was in Gary's either after having to clean up afternoon bannon.

Gary's biggest curse is that he was a good enough HC that we were good in year 1 (with a young and flawed roster) and (almost) really good in Year 3. People expected linear/upward progression from there.

 

[MADHAT1]

Gary's biggest curse is that he was a good enough HC that we were good in year 1 (with a young and flawed roster) and (almost) really good in Year 3. People expected linear/upward progression from there.

year 2 and 4 wasn't anything to make RU fans think Gary turned the corner and though year 5 was close to 20, can't say year 6 would be a winning one with 20 or more and a NCAA bid without Quincy .
But Waters would have had a heck of a better record than Freddie wound up with for the 2006-2007 season with that year's roster.

 

[higgins3]

top 8 consistently in B1G means $3,000,000 for Pikiell which has to mean 8,000 season ticket holders, which has to mean prime seats would pay 4-5X what they pay now.

I don't believe in timelines. I also need to see a LOT more until I have high confidence that Pikiell is the one.

Not getting ahead of things, but I really hope that the revenue would come almost instantly with success on the court. The minute Pikiell (or anyone) gets us to NCAAs there is 5 years $15,000,000 contract offer waiting for him.

That's true. It's hard to say what fans would be willing to pay in any economy. Still, if the team is successful, fans will likely come. I have confidence that Pikiell really enjoys his job, and he is willing to do the work to keep it. The big ten does seem to pay their coaches a lot, so that will be interesting. Especially compared to other programs that are very successful.

I like how Pikiell is building at the moment. I see a formidable team for the next three years. Not top 8, but ability to get to top 10.

Just gotta keep choppin away at the Big ten tree.

 

[Loyal_2RU]

Waters' last class included Inman, Farmer and Griffin, all of who were Rivals Top 150 players. And he had Hamady signed for the following year. That's four for four of Top 150 kids as he walked out the door.

Waters was close with Rutgers three times and (in my opinion) really close twice. No one else has gotten closer since 1991. And Gary played really, really good competition day in/day out--year in/year out. Gary was a pretty good HC.

I think Waters was thoughtful and improved his ability to recruit over time. Not fair to paint him in year 4 with the same brush used in year 1, although Ricky Shields was an amazing pick up.

 

[MADHAT1]

I think Waters was thoughtful and improved his ability to recruit over time. Not fair to paint him in year 4 with the same brush used in year 1, although Ricky Shields was an amazing pick up.

I have always believed if Gary came back and Freddie stayed his assistant ,
Rutgers would have turned into a good program after a few years of them working together..
But Waters wasn't good enough on his own to recruit a roster that would make
RU MBB a top BE program.
Hill proved to be an example of a good recruiting assistant that was a failure as a HC

 

[Loyal_2RU]

I have always believed if Gary came back and Freddie stayed his assistant ,
Rutgers would have turned into a good program after a few years of them working together..
But Waters wasn't good enough on his own to recruit a roster that would make
RU MBB a top BE program.
Hill proved to be an example of a good recruiting assistant that was a failure as a HC

There was a FHJ mystique that got turned into an fhj mistake.

In recent decades, our mature professional college basketball coaches have been Wenzel, Waters, and Pike. Littlepage was not a coach, Bannon and Rice were not mature, EJ was a pro and not a college coach. And FHJ flunked 2 categories. Who am I missing?

 

[MADHAT1]

There was a FHJ mystique that got turned into an fhj mistake.

In recent decades, our mature professional college basketball coaches have been Wenzel, Waters, and Pike. Littlepage was not a coach, Bannon and Rice were not mature, EJ was a pro and not a college coach. And FHJ flunked 2 categories. Who am I missing?

Only one of all the coaches you named had a 20 win season and the next year won only 10.
No matter how you look at them as coaches and reasons RU MBB didn't succeed under them, what stands out is: Rutgers only went to the Dance only twice under all of those coaches mentioned and the last time was 1990-1991 season in Wenzel's third season as RU's HC.
I'll not knock any of them, but feel I can't claim any RU HC after Tom Young left would have made RU a top program if they stayed longer.
Wenzel started out like he would, but never did.
Rice seemed like he could , but blew any chances to prove he would.
Waters seemed like he was coming close, only to fall back the next season.
Bannon always made you feel he'd get there, but ,like Rice, his actions prevented him from doing it.
EJ was out of his element and like you said: " Littlepage was not a coach".

What's missing is, none of us can say they all were failures because they really weren't supported enough by the administration in their efforts to make RU MBB a program we could be proud of.
I'll just say some of them might not have succeeded if they did have the support needed and some probably would have built a program to be proud of if coaching ability was the only criteria used to judge.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Not rehashing 15-20 years of RU history, but common sense tells me that we can't name the assistants that stood out across all of these eras of RU basketball beyond FHJ because he got hired here etc....RU historically doesn't measure up from a coaching staff level top to bottom....perhaps they had a good head coach, but lacked the recruiting contacts at the assistant level to get players that fit consistently.

This is where landing a Brandin Knight, Jay Young and Karl Hobbs separates this staff from any staff since Jeff Van Gundy as an assistant 20+ years ago at RU....what assistant coach that's been at RU has launched to the next level of basketball?? I'm not locking in Jay Young or Brandin Knight as future head coaches in a year, but in 4 to 5 years, they will be considered elite and well paid RU assistants benefitting from RU's full revenue share in the B1G, or they will be running their own programs based on helping RU reaching the next level or two.