GAME 19 PENN STATE: Shattered Dreams

[FAT MOON]

Well we have had this discussion before..the dye was cast when they were signed. They were here to showcase their offensive skills for the NBA

I can't with these narratives. So many assumptions and lazy takes being made to justify the fact that the team is struggling. Now they were only here to showcase their offensive skills for the NBA.

Their offense was always going to be way ahead of their defense. They have been elite offensively for years. Watched Dylan against Camden two years ago and he was getting to the rim and finishing at will against a team of D1 players. Watched Ace go for 40/20 last year against Camden again at JMA. They have been practicing step backs and turnaround and different handed finishes etc for years. How often do they work defensively when they aren't with their team. And this is not just Ace and Dylan, this is all elite HS players.

Neither has been part of division 1 team defensive system until now. Go back and see how our national defensive player of the year played D as a true frosh. Go look at the two Elite rim protectors we've had here played as true freshman (one redshirted). Spoiler alert: it wasn't pretty.

I think both are trying, hard, to get better defensively. And both have grown leaps and bounds already. Better on ball, way way better off ball, rebounding significantly better.

GRF is correct. They way they played defense early hurt the team. If we had an elite rim protector or an elite wing defender it would be easier on them. Personally I don't think it was from a lack of effort or wanting to do it and was more from not being connected and just learning on the fly. It is getting better quickly but we are in a massive hole and also dealing with flu/ankles/etc.

 

[bac2therac]

Am I the only one tired of the NBA hype stats after games regarding Ace and Dylan?

Great athletes and basketball players don't get me wrong. They're trying to do their best on the floor.

But all of this hype and excitement over their stats and Rutgers is losing games

Rutgers is 10-9! Near the bottom of the B1G and on the B1G Tourney bubble!

you are not alone and i would say that the large majority of the fanbase doesnt care either. The stats to me are empty and almost makes it look more comical what is going on. Huh Ace is putting up 30 shooting 13-15 fg...and RUTGER IS STILL LOSING...lolz

 

[bac2therac]

I can't with these narratives. So many assumptions and lazy takes being made to justify the fact that the team is struggling. Now they were only here to showcase their offensive skills for the NBA.

Their offense was always going to be way ahead of their defense. They have been elite offensively for years. Watched Dylan against Camden two years ago and he was getting to the rim and finishing at will against a team of D1 players. Watched Ace go for 40/20 last year against Camden again at JMA. They have been practicing step backs and turnaround and different handed finishes etc for years. How often do they work defensively when they aren't with their team. And this is not just Ace and Dylan, this is all elite HS players.

Neither has been part of division 1 team defensive system until now. Go back and see how our national defensive player of the year played D as a true frosh. Go look at the two Elite rim protectors we've had here played as true freshman (one redshirted). Spoiler alert: it wasn't pretty.

I think both are trying, hard, to get better defensively. And both have grown leaps and bounds already. Better on ball, way way better off ball, rebounding significantly better.

GRF is correct. They way they played defense early hurt the team. If we had an elite rim protector or an elite wing defender it would be easier on them. Personally I don't think it was from a lack of effort or wanting to do it and was more from not being connected and just learning on the fly. It is getting better quickly but we are in a massive hole and also dealing with flu/ankles/etc.

its not a narrative and it isnt lazy. What you see out there isnt a team. You get fooled with low standards..yes they looked like a team vs Nebraska and UCLA but a couple of games here and there 18 games into the season is meaningless. Pike deserves a heap of blame for sure. Its not Ace/Dylans fault its going with one and dones and Rutgers isnt the program for that. It doesnt have the infrastructure, money, nor roster depth to handle it.

 

[goru7]

i dont think they were ever asked or expected to play defense right from the get go...and that is part of the problem

The defense that Dylan is playing and the defense ACE is playing is not the problem. The problem is the crappy defense from the entire supporting cast plus the center spot with Manny and Lathan which is all sub par.

 

[goru7]

its not a narrative and it isnt lazy. What you see out there isnt a team. You get fooled with low standards..yes they looked like a team vs Nebraska and UCLA but a couple of games here and there 18 games into the season is meaningless. Pike deserves a heap of blame for sure. Its not Ace/Dylans fault its going with one and dones and Rutgers isnt the program for that. It doesnt have the infrastructure, money, nor roster depth to handle it.

You say that Rutgers doesn’t have the infrastructure and money and although there is a lot of truth to that statement, you saying Rutgers cannot handle it is ridiculous. Things got unlucky as Cliff wanted to get paid and had already given us 4 years. If Cliff stayed we are not having a lot of these discussions and defensive collapses of epic proportions. We tried for Williams from Drexel who went to Kentucky and Carr from Wake Forest who also went to Kentucky because of NIL. Getting one of the 3 , Cliff , Williams or Carr makes a huge difference . NIL probably caused it but we got unlikely as well. I really believe Pike never envisioned his entire team and supporting cast being terrible on defense and his not being able to fix it. That is really what has happened.
Now Dylan and ACE are up to snuff on defense , will the remaining crew figure it out over the next 12 plus games.

 

[RAC93]

you are not alone and i would say that the large majority of the fanbase doesnt care either. The stats to me are empty and almost makes it look more comical what is going on. Huh Ace is putting up 30 shooting 13-15 fg...and RUTGER IS STILL LOSING...lolz

Agreed, the aspect that looks comical reflects back on Pike, it’s a really bad look to have 2 guys plugged into your lineup that you can automatically assume will get you 40 or more per game and only be able to win half your games. In fact, Pike isn’t even winning half during the last 15 games as we are 6-9 for a .400 winning percentage. Many on here say Rutgers will never get another 5 star after this season’s debacle, I don’t see it that way. Dylan and Ace have been able to come here and have total free reign, they have put up big numbers and done nothing to hurt their draft stock, both will go in likely the top 5 picks and who knows maybe be pick 2 and 3. It’s worked out for them. So why wouldn’t another 5 star see this and say “I’ll have free reign at Rutgers under Pike just like Dylan and Ace had, I’ll put up 20 a game and bolster my draft stock at Rutgers.” Once again, Dylan and Ace have done nothing to hurt their draft stock while playing for RU this season.

This year’s group, led by two uber talented one and dones, is definitely not working for us as fans this year as we care about winning. Not working for Pike either as he looks bad coming out of this season if it continues to play out this way. I don’t think RU is equipped to just plug and play transfers around freshman 5 stars, as we have seen play out this year. But future recruits and how they see things can be totally different than how we view it. To me, this season is a failure if it continues on this trajectory, but it won’t be a failure for Dylan and Ace and future recruits may not even be concerned about our record, might be concerned about how one year in college basketball sets them up for NBA draft positioning. I, same as you, don’t care about the NBA aspect of this year’s team, I care about the winning this season.

 

[goru7]

Agreed, the aspect that looks comical reflects back on Pike, it’s a really bad look to have 2 guys plugged into your lineup that you can automatically assume will get you 40 or more per game and only be able to win half your games. In fact, Pike isn’t even winning half during the last 15 games as we are 6-9 for a .400 winning percentage. Many on here say Rutgers will never get another 5 star after this season’s debacle, I don’t see it that way. Dylan and Ace have been able to come here and have total free reign, they have put up big numbers and done nothing to hurt their draft stock, both will go in likely the top 5 picks and who knows maybe be pick 2 and 3. It’s worked out for them. So why wouldn’t another 5 star see this and say “I’ll have free reign at Rutgers under Pike just like Dylan and Ace had, I’ll put up 20 a game and bolster my draft stock at Rutgers.” Once again, Dylan and Ace have done nothing to hurt their draft stock while playing for RU this season.

This year’s group, led by two uber talented one and dones, is definitely not working for us as fans this year as we care about winning. Not working for Pike either as he looks bad coming out of this season if it continues to play out this way. I don’t think RU is equipped to just plug and play transfers around freshman 5 stars, as we have seen play out this year. But future recruits and how they see things can be totally different than how we view it. To me, this season is a failure if it continues on this trajectory, but it won’t be a failure for Dylan and Ace and future recruits may not even be concerned about our record, might be concerned about how one year in college basketball sets them up for NBA draft positioning. I, same as you, don’t care about the NBA aspect of this year’s team, I care about the winning this season.

True about Dylan and ACE and their greatness. The problem is the supporting cast. I watch like you a ton of college basketball and there are numerous transfers if they were here this year , instead of the dreadful supporting cast would make a difference. There is a guy on Michigan State , Fieldler , who came from North Dakota , who is the type of player that would be a third scorer and helped us. I know there are 50 other transfer guards that would have helped us. The truth is the staff and Pike who gets the blame picked these transfers and has struck out. The little output and almost no defense from Acuff, Jordan , Pj and Martini is shockingly bad. He thought he was getting a third scoring option with Acuff but the foot injury and/ or the step up from the MAC has resulted in a disaster. With the exception of Nebraska , Martini has been a collosal failure and it can be argued but he cost us at least 2-3 games. PJ ‘s practice shooting has never materialized and his defense is beyond bad like Martini’s and Acuff’s. Jordan is an egnima. Someone that should help but for every one good play he makes 3 bad ones. And his defensive prowess has never been on display this year.
The transfer class has been a colossal failure but there are others out there that worked out for other teams that didn’t cost them much.
The returning guys Jeremiah , JMike and Manny have also regressed and not gotten better in an appreciable way.
It literally has been the worst case scenario that has occurred.
Thank God for the freshman and not just Dylan and ACE but Lathan and Dylan Grant as well. Every one of them gives you something better than all the transfers and returnees .

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That’s probably true

My point is nobody is making a compelling case to not being doing this minutes restriction nonsense with a one and done

We’re 10-9 there’s 0.0 room for error … why are we resting everyone for the stretch run when right now the stretch run is whether we finish above .500

I would expect and we should expect Harper and ace on the court for 35 minutes Saturday against Michigan state

If they are not and we see another 11-0 catastrophic run because they need rest for crunch time then it’ll further prove my point

Will you also say something if we have a 8 point lead with 8 minutes to go and completely melt down the stretch.

 

[RAC93]

True about Dylan and ACE and their greatness. The problem is the supporting cast. I watch like you a ton of college basketball and there are numerous transfers if they were here this year , instead of the dreadful supporting cast would make a difference. There is a guy on Michigan State , Fieldler , who came from North Dakota , who is the type of player that would be a third scorer and helped us. I know there are 50 other transfer guards that would have helped us. The truth is the staff and Pike who gets the blame picked these transfers and has struck out. The little output and almost no defense from Acuff, Jordan , Pj and Martini is shockingly bad. He thought he was getting a third scoring option with Acuff but the foot injury and/ or the step up from the MAC has resulted in a disaster. With the exception of Nebraska , Martini has been a collosal failure and it can be argued but he cost us at least 2-3 games. PJ ‘s practice shooting has never materialized and his defense is beyond bad like Martini’s and Acuff’s. Jordan is an egnima. Someone that should help but for every one good play he makes 3 bad ones. And his defensive prowess has never been on display this year.
The transfer class has been a colossal failure but there are others out there that worked out for other teams that didn’t cost them much.
The returning guys Jeremiah , JMike and Manny have also regressed and not gotten better in an appreciable way.
It literally has been the worst case scenario that has occurred.
Thank God for the freshman and not just Dylan and ACE but Lathan and Dylan Grant as well. Every one of them gives you something better than all the transfers and returnees .

JWill fooled us last year with that 4 game run he had. It’s like the car dealer sold us a car that seemed great while we were on the lot, but it turned out to be a lemon. He is same level as all the rest of these role player guys, the transfers, etc.. Huge disappointment as it seemed like he could possibly be the #3 guy, or at least in some games perform that role while others took on that same role in other games and count on him to handle ball and run the offense with Dylan out of the game. The one thing we can count on him for based upon his time at RU is that he plays a great game of Slip ‘N Slide…….that’s the only thing I can consistently expect with him is that he will slip to the floor game in, game out.

 

[goru7]

JWill fooled us last year with that 4 game run he had. It’s like the car dealer sold us a car that seemed great while we were on the lot, but it turned out to be a lemon. He is same level as all the rest of these role player guys, the transfers, etc.. Huge disappointment as it seemed like he could possibly be the #3 guy, or at least in some games perform that role while others took on that same role in other games and count on him to handle ball and run the offense with Dylan out of the game. The one thing we can count on him for based upon his time at RU is that he plays a great game of Slip ‘N Slide…….that’s the only thing I can consistently expect with him is that he will slip to the floor game in, game out.

Yeah the Jeremiah that can be good and be a legitimate third option gets derailed by his own low IQ plays , whether it is constantly getting in foul trouble , fouling 3 point shooters at least 3 times this year , not staying in front of his man enough and cheating going for steals leaving his man on the loose , running into the screener on a handoff for an offensive foul instead of seeing how tight things are and declining to screen. So many simple things resulting in super negative momentum swings or lousy turnover basketball.
If he drove and consistently tried to finish at the rim by using the backboard that could get us 10 points a game. He makes a beautiful move and uses the rim to prevent the block and lays it in 1 play , then he goes soft and uses his weak hand anotherand just floats it up. So we have seen he is capable but his inconsistency is maddening. His failure to convert open 3 pointers has not improved despite him aging. Just give us the same effort every night and play smarter and stop talking to the refs the popcorn salesman and everyone else he talks smack to which really shows his lack of discipline. Pike did not sign up for this version of Jeremiah.

 

[RAC93]

Yeah the Jeremiah that can be good and be a legitimate third option gets derailed by his own low IQ plays , whether it is constantly getting in foul trouble , fouling 3 point shooters at least 3 times this year , not staying in front of his man enough and cheating going for steals leaving his man on the loose , running into the screener on a handoff for an offensive foul instead of seeing how tight things are and declining to screen. So many simple things resulting in super negative momentum swings or lousy turnover basketball.
If he drove and consistently tried to finish at the rim by using the backboard that could get us 10 points a game. He makes a beautiful move and uses the rim to prevent the block and lays it in 1 play , then he goes soft and uses his weak hand anotherand just floats it up. So we have seen he is capable but his inconsistency is maddening. His failure to convert open 3 pointers has not improved despite him aging. Just give us the same effort every night and play smarter and stop talking to the refs the popcorn salesman and everyone else he talks smack to which really shows his lack of discipline. Pike did not sign up for this version of

Excellent summary of JWill and his issues. Nothing else to add really. I saw good Jeremiah in Vegas against Texas A&M unfortunately we have not seen that version a whole lot.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE THEN THAT WOULD ACTUALLY GIVE US A CHANCE TO WIN

Are you suggesting we had no chance to win many of the games we lost? We did things that gave us a "chance" to win.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

its not a narrative and it isnt lazy. What you see out there isnt a team. You get fooled with low standards..yes they looked like a team vs Nebraska and UCLA but a couple of games here and there 18 games into the season is meaningless. Pike deserves a heap of blame for sure. Its not Ace/Dylans fault its going with one and dones and Rutgers isnt the program for that. It doesnt have the infrastructure, money, nor roster depth to handle it.

What he is saying is you and others sound like children upset that things haven't worked out well enough for YOU. Like your rooting commitment and predictions have not been met and HOW DARE THEY!

 

[Mholinko]

Are you suggesting we had no chance to win many of the games we lost? We did things that gave us a "chance" to win.

I understand his point and respect it I’m merely saying at 10-9 in a nearly lost season why are we worried about preserving guys for the stretch when the stretch maybe irrelevant

And yes GRF I would rather go down with the ship and blow an 8 point lead late then try to climb out of a 10 point hole. One is much easier to do (preserve a lead) than the other (climb back into a game) and I’ll take my chances with two slightly more tired studs trying to fend off a team than to carry a group of misfits on their back with minimal time remaining

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

I understand his point and respect it I’m merely saying at 10-9 in a nearly lost season why are we worried about preserving guys for the stretch when the stretch maybe irrelevant

And yes GRF I would rather go down with the ship and blow an 8 point lead late then try to climb out of a 10 point hole. One is much easier to do (preserve a lead) than the other (climb back into a game) and I’ll take my chances with two slightly more tired studs trying to fend off a team than to carry a group of misfits on their back with minimal time remaining

why are you so invested in suggesting resting players.. any player at any time.. is such a mistake that it blows the whole season? Don't you know players ask to come out? What happens when you don't pull a player who asks to come out? Not that that is what happened here.. but I have criticized both Schiano and Pike for allowing obviously hurt players to play... when Wimsatt got rocked and came back in later (I think because his backup was showing him up) and when Harper rolled his ankle and stayed in to shoot FTs... yank him!

Getting players rest is such a tiny thing in all of this and is completely subjective and unprovable.. for the late-game and the late-season. While we CAN see what overly-tired players failing looks like... we cannot see whether keeping them in would have reversed outcomes in the short and long terms.

 

[goru7]

why are you so invested in suggesting resting players.. any player at any time.. is such a mistake that it blows the whole season? Don't you know players ask to come out? What happens when you don't pull a player who asks to come out? Not that that is what happened here.. but I have criticized both Schiano and Pike for allowing obviously hurt players to play... when Wimsatt got rocked and came back in later (I think because his backup was showing him up) and when Harper rolled his ankle and stayed in to shoot FTs... yank him!

Getting players rest is such a tiny thing in all of this and is completely subjective and unprovable.. for the late-game and the late-season. While we CAN see what overly-tired players failing looks like... we cannot see whether keeping them in would have reversed outcomes in the short and long terms.

I think the point is a bigger issue. Now I am one of the biggest Pike supporters. But he makes many mistakes. The biggest one he makes and he has done it throughout his 9 years is when our player gets hot and hits a few in a row , Pike ‘s first move is to yank him. Not wait for him to miss his next shot that was short because he was exhausted but yank him before he takes his next shot. ACE had just made 2-3 in a row giving us a 53-50 lead. Maybe he hits 5-6 in a row and the lead is up to 9-10. Pike never gave you the opportunity to see if that would happen.
You know he made a mistake because ACE was sitting to check back in while we were missing 2 terrible shots by Acuff , a wide open good shot by Lathan and a decent shot by Dylan . He was sitting there for over a minute and when he called the timeout the lead had switched and from 3 up we were now 6 down. That was a huge error and one of the many reasons we lost the game. Ace ‘s stamina was not good early first 10 games but has been incredibly improved the last 10 and he could have played 38-40 minutes but for foul trouble. So the point was specifically about ACE in this game but overall Pike bring the one to stop one of our hot players not the other team.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

I think the point is a bigger issue. Now I am one of the biggest Pike supporters. But he makes many mistakes. The biggest one he makes and he has done it throughout his 9 years is when our player gets hot and hits a few in a row , Pike ‘s first move is to yank him. Not wait for him to miss his next shot that was short because he was exhausted but yank him before he takes his next shot. ACE had just made 2-3 in a row giving us a 53-50 lead. Maybe he hits 5-6 in a row and the lead is up to 9-10. Pike never gave you the opportunity to see if that would happen.
You know he made a mistake because ACE was sitting to check back in while we were missing 2 terrible shots by Acuff , a wide open good shot by Lathan and a decent shot by Dylan . He was sitting there for over a minute and when he called the timeout the lead had switched and from 3 up we were now 6 down. That was a huge error and one of the many reasons we lost the game. Ace ‘s stamina was not good early first 10 games but has been incredibly improved the last 10 and he could have played 38-40 minutes but for foul trouble. So the point was specifically about ACE in this game but overall Pike bring the one to stop one of our hot players not the other team.

Because of Peacock I do not have this one on video for easy review.. but I think I remember seeing Ace slack off on D somewhere.. maybe get a foul.. just before he got yanked. Is that true or am I remembering an earlier game? I suspect I saw Latham yanked for teh same reason in the first half... of course it was his second foul so that is common.. but it looked like a foul because he was gassed, IIRC. And that is something I have seen from Pike.. leaving big guys in too long.. it was fairly common for both Myles and Cliff to get gassed and foul and then come out instead of getting them out when they were obviously too tired to play good D.

Hmmm.. could Pike be trying to address that.. watch them on D and if they slack off yank 'em?