Former Big East Coaches & Programs.....now somewhat exposed

[NewJerseyHawk]

I had a conversation sitting and chatting during the 1st half of the Nebraska game with another RU diehard, who also watches football and hoops and in between Nebraska scoring plays, RU punts and an otherwise non-descript game, the obvious conversations came up regarding Flood and what options if any were available to RU if the trend line continues.

I think the overall mistake being made by all RU fans and fans that watched Schiano and our Big East competition was the theory or notion that the Big East was an actual BCS caliber conference or at the same level of the ACC, Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12 or SEC. Since the Big East had a seat at the table of BCS bowl games and the conference had an underdogs mentality, it provided the thought process that in "head to head" matchups in OOC or during Bowl season that when West Virginia or others matched up in the limited opportunities with the B1G, SEC and Big 12, that the Big East was capable of competing, week in and week out.

The fact now remains that although many are determined to give the Big East that credit, it is now being exposed as not having the overall player depth BUT also lacked the top end coaches as well.

If we are fair and look at what coaches have done after the breakup of the Big East, let's look at where certain coaches landed and what level of success they enjoyed AFTER they left the annual competition of the Big East.

Rich Rod- Still considered an above average coach, but did not deliver Michigan back to the level they expected and ultimately dismantled an already 9 win program, because former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr could not be USC in the Rose Bowl or didn't dominate rival Ohio State under Tressel. Rodriguez getting exposed in the B1G wasn't surprising, they lacked the players to run his system, but he also has had an uneven Arizona tenure as well. I would not place Arizona in the top half of football power programs in the Pac 12, but I don't think Rich Rod is going to take that next step there.

Greg Schiano-I keep hearing about how RU football really was only started under Terry Shea, but the stark reality was and still is, RU has always been a 5-7 win program, with normal recruiting and talent in our area. The Dick Anderson and Graber days are not far off from the Schiano days, if you eliminate the 2006 season. RU also played a significantly tougher schedule in the late 80's and early 90's vs whatever Schiano and the new Big East developed into, and got progressively easier after Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College left the league. We can argue that Schiano was a National Coach of the Year and deservedly so for 2006's magical ride. But on the surface, RU would be essentially the same program if they played a tougher schedule or in a better conference. We are discovering that right now as RU enters a true balanced league, that is supported with better coaching staffs, top to bottom in this conference vs anything seen in the Big East.

Charlie Strong-won and rebuilt a slow developing program after Kragthorpe left, but it was not THAT far removed from the winning of Petrino. Strong developed a recruiting base in South Florida to help Louisville grow enough that they earned an ACC invtie (along with their hoops success), but Strong's resume was built on winning a Big East title by beating Rutgers in 2012 and ultimately dismantling a Florida team that was thought to be much better in the Sugar Bowl. If we are fair about how good Bridgewater is and can fairly look back at Muschamp not really doing much with Florida's talent, Louisville was a questionable call on a lineman down field vs RU from never seeing the Sugar Bowl.

Randy Edsell----A fan favorite for taking the under rated and under dog Huskies to levels not seen since then, but begs the question...who was Edsell defeating......Jim Leavitt at USF, Kragthorpe at Louisville, Rich Rod (no) but perhaps Bill Stewart when he took over for Rich Rod at WVU....We can all agree that Edsell maximized his time at UConn, but the reality is, he was never that good of a coach and his time at Maryland, exposed him for what he was....an average coach, matched with other somewhat above average coaches in a now, overrated league.

I can continue with Bill Stewart, and others but the one program that demonstrated an ability to find and hire coaches was Cinci, with Dantonio, Brian Kelly, and Butch Jones and like it or not, all three coaches maximized Cinci to an extent that Dantonio & Kelly can be argued are two of the Top 10 coaches in college football.

This is not to minimize the matchups that West Virginia put up against Oklahoma or Georgia in their BCS games that carried the flag for the Big East back then to give the league a level of confidence. But in theory, before we automatically assume that Schiano returning (which isn't happening by the way), solves the riddle of recruiting and on field success, be careful....his competition back then is now shown as not as strong as we would believe in most instances and he's going up a level or 2 or 3, in the Big Ten.....the Big Ten is now significantly better today vs 2006-2011, when RU was in the Big East.

We have actual results that you have to look back on and evaluate NOW, vs holding opinions from before on not necessarily what happened during bowl matchups...sometimes that cannot be the best way to evaluate one conference vs another. Let's look back at the reputations of what coaches built their resumes on and they didn't necessarily do so again what you would consider programs or other coaches that were that good.

I would argue that Flood's resume could look or feel much different with a win over Louisville and perhaps even a close win vs Florida in the Sugar Bowl (Florida could not score and RU's OL was probably not going to block Florida pass rush), but at worse, Flood could have been a BCS bowl game coach.

This is also to say that Flood's initial resume of the 2012 team could have won more with better QB play but Flood is now working against better overall staffs and RU as a program needs better coordinators on game day to mask the rosters flaws against better competition. The question becomes what path are you taking to close this gap and at what cost??

I'm sure there will be detractors that will not recognize the Big East as not being inferior, but the depth of the conference has proven that it hasn't been what we thought it was and the coaches success levels leaving the Big East has also not been there as well. With Rich Rod, Strong, Edsell etc.....what separates Schiano from being classified with these coaches, when he was evaluated based on his success, going against these same staffs??

Looking for feedback on whether this is a flawed evaluation or is the current review of these coaches fair at their new jobs??.....I just don't see Schiano or a lot of these coaches thriving in better leagues and RU needs to get creative and find a true ace Offensive or Defensive Coordinator that fits the price points we are working from, before thinking the next MAC or AAC level head coach immediately launches RU from 5-6 win category to 8-9 wins. It will take more than a Schiano type of coach to get his done here at RU.

 

[RUBigFrank]

Have to agree - however what distinguished the Big East was the competitive balance from top to bottom. Rankings were consistently 20 -50 in overall competiveness nationally. It is interesting that all these coaches elevated nationally to P5 jobs or better with the exception of Levitt.

 

[lester19]

For those that long for Schiano and his success, not only was the in-conference schedule far softer than today's, but he also ducked any significant out of conference teams. It is far easier to get up those one or two "special" games each year than to go through the week to week grind of a real conference.

 

[e5fdny]

I would argue that Flood's resume could look or feel much different with a win over Louisville and perhaps even a close win vs Florida in the Sugar Bowl (Florida could not score and RU's OL was probably not going to block Florida pass rush), but at worse, Flood could have been a BCS bowl game coach.

If only the players did their part and executed a pretty good game plan that night....what could have been.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Someone should post Schiano's win/lost record against teams that finished with winning records and teams that finished ranked.

 

[rutgersal]

disagree on rich rod. he needs 5 years to built a powerhouse team, and Michigan only gave him 3. he didn't have the players to do what he wanted to do and michigan fans ran out of patience.

he's only been at arizona 4 years. lets see what his team does in year 5 (next year)

as for schiano, he accomplished what no other coach accomplished on field and academic success relative to rutgers. this is what stands out significantly relative to graber and anderson.

schiano's team was one of the few to play the seahawks really tough during their super bowl season and i think he has progressed significantly since his rutgers time.

he already has excellent connections, and now he'd bring more cache. I think he'd kill it here, like Pete Carroll at USC in the 90's.

 

[Knight Shift]

If only the players did their part and executed a pretty good game plan that night....what could have been.

Are you being a Floodie?

 

[Knight Shift]

I had a conversation sitting and chatting during the 1st half of the Nebraska game with another RU diehard, who also watches football and hoops and in between Nebraska scoring plays, RU punts and an otherwise non-descript game, the obvious conversations came up regarding Flood and what options if any were available to RU if the trend line continues.

I think the overall mistake being made by all RU fans and fans that watched Schiano and our Big East competition was the theory or notion that the Big East was an actual BCS caliber conference or at the same level of the ACC, Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12 or SEC. Since the Big East had a seat at the table of BCS bowl games and the conference had an underdogs mentality, it provided the thought process that in "head to head" matchups in OOC or during Bowl season that when West Virginia or others matched up in the limited opportunities with the B1G, SEC and Big 12, that the Big East was capable of competing, week in and week out.

The fact now remains that although many are determined to give the Big East that credit, it is now being exposed as not having the overall player depth BUT also lacked the top end coaches as well.

If we are fair and look at what coaches have done after the breakup of the Big East, let's look at where certain coaches landed and what level of success they enjoyed AFTER they left the annual competition of the Big East.

Rich Rod- Still considered an above average coach, but did not deliver Michigan back to the level they expected and ultimately dismantled an already 9 win program, because former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr could not be USC in the Rose Bowl or didn't dominate rival Ohio State under Tressel. Rodriguez getting exposed in the B1G wasn't surprising, they lacked the players to run his system, but he also has had an uneven Arizona tenure as well. I would not place Arizona in the top half of football power programs in the Pac 12, but I don't think Rich Rod is going to take that next step there.

Greg Schiano-I keep hearing about how RU football really was only started under Terry Shea, but the stark reality was and still is, RU has always been a 5-7 win program, with normal recruiting and talent in our area. The Dick Anderson and Graber days are not far off from the Schiano days, if you eliminate the 2006 season. RU also played a significantly tougher schedule in the late 80's and early 90's vs whatever Schiano and the new Big East developed into, and got progressively easier after Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College left the league. We can argue that Schiano was a National Coach of the Year and deservedly so for 2006's magical ride. But on the surface, RU would be essentially the same program if they played a tougher schedule or in a better conference. We are discovering that right now as RU enters a true balanced league, that is supported with better coaching staffs, top to bottom in this conference vs anything seen in the Big East.

Charlie Strong-won and rebuilt a slow developing program after Kragthorpe left, but it was not THAT far removed from the winning of Petrino. Strong developed a recruiting base in South Florida to help Louisville grow enough that they earned an ACC invtie (along with their hoops success), but Strong's resume was built on winning a Big East title by beating Rutgers in 2012 and ultimately dismantling a Florida team that was thought to be much better in the Sugar Bowl. If we are fair about how good Bridgewater is and can fairly look back at Muschamp not really doing much with Florida's talent, Louisville was a questionable call on a lineman down field vs RU from never seeing the Sugar Bowl.

Randy Edsell----A fan favorite for taking the under rated and under dog Huskies to levels not seen since then, but begs the question...who was Edsell defeating......Jim Leavitt at USF, Kragthorpe at Louisville, Rich Rod (no) but perhaps Bill Stewart when he took over for Rich Rod at WVU....We can all agree that Edsell maximized his time at UConn, but the reality is, he was never that good of a coach and his time at Maryland, exposed him for what he was....an average coach, matched with other somewhat above average coaches in a now, overrated league.

I can continue with Bill Stewart, and others but the one program that demonstrated an ability to find and hire coaches was Cinci, with Dantonio, Brian Kelly, and Butch Jones and like it or not, all three coaches maximized Cinci to an extent that Dantonio & Kelly can be argued are two of the Top 10 coaches in college football.

This is not to minimize the matchups that West Virginia put up against Oklahoma or Georgia in their BCS games that carried the flag for the Big East back then to give the league a level of confidence. But in theory, before we automatically assume that Schiano returning (which isn't happening by the way), solves the riddle of recruiting and on field success, be careful....his competition back then is now shown as not as strong as we would believe in most instances and he's going up a level or 2 or 3, in the Big Ten.....the Big Ten is now significantly better today vs 2006-2011, when RU was in the Big East.

We have actual results that you have to look back on and evaluate NOW, vs holding opinions from before on not necessarily what happened during bowl matchups...sometimes that cannot be the best way to evaluate one conference vs another. Let's look back at the reputations of what coaches built their resumes on and they didn't necessarily do so again what you would consider programs or other coaches that were that good.

I would argue that Flood's resume could look or feel much different with a win over Louisville and perhaps even a close win vs Florida in the Sugar Bowl (Florida could not score and RU's OL was probably not going to block Florida pass rush), but at worse, Flood could have been a BCS bowl game coach.

This is also to say that Flood's initial resume of the 2012 team could have won more with better QB play but Flood is now working against better overall staffs and RU as a program needs better coordinators on game day to mask the rosters flaws against better competition. The question becomes what path are you taking to close this gap and at what cost??

I'm sure there will be detractors that will not recognize the Big East as not being inferior, but the depth of the conference has proven that it hasn't been what we thought it was and the coaches success levels leaving the Big East has also not been there as well. With Rich Rod, Strong, Edsell etc.....what separates Schiano from being classified with these coaches, when he was evaluated based on his success, going against these same staffs??

Looking for feedback on whether this is a flawed evaluation or is the current review of these coaches fair at their new jobs??.....I just don't see Schiano or a lot of these coaches thriving in better leagues and RU needs to get creative and find a true ace Offensive or Defensive Coordinator that fits the price points we are working from, before thinking the next MAC or AAC level head coach immediately launches RU from 5-6 win category to 8-9 wins. It will take more than a Schiano type of coach to get his done here at RU.

Solid post. Cincy seemed to have our number most years. They continue to do a lot with a little bit of talent. We could do the same.

 

[rutgersguy1]

I still think Rich Rod is a solid to good coach. I think he's just done in by the fact that he can't deliver a mediocre defense. It limits how consistently well his teams can perform. Sure he might get that big year where things align or he's got those couple special players on offense that really take off in a given year and can overcome the defensive shortcomings but the lack of defense will always hurt his chances at being very good consistently. I think he could get away with it in the BE and his defenses probably fared better against a little bit weaker big east competition.

Charlie I also think is a solid coach despits his troubles at Texas. I thought he got paid too soon at Louisville to that 3.5M range and now again at Texas. Despite that though I still think he's okay. He's got issues on the other side of the ball. He got his first choice of OC wrong at Louisville and he did it again at Texas. Switched to a spread this year and used the same OC he brought from Louisville with him to install it despite the fact that he never ran one before. So many spread coaches to choose from and Texas' wallet to spend with and that's what you do? Look at what Gary Patterson did with Meacham/Cumbie or Stoops with Lincoln Riley. Bad decision making by Strong. Now he had to switch to Norvell and limited to choose someone on staff due to the in season change. Norvell has some experience with it being co OC with Heupel at OU but they were let go for lack of production and Norvell hasn't called plays for 8 years since his days at UCLA. So he's still got to fine a good OC. If he does that I think he'll be okay.

Bil Stewart belongs in no conversation when it comes to good coaching. Just a place holder IMO and who coasted off whatever Rich Rod left behind.

Never cared for Edsall thought he was overrated by too many here.

Kelly/Dantonio I liked but Butch Jones I'm not sold on him. Wanted to see him do something longer at his last 2 stops rather than leave so quickly after Kelly at both those stops. He's recruited very well at Tenn but still hasn't materialized into much in the weaker half of the SEC.

 

[Panthergrowl13]

I had a conversation sitting and chatting during the 1st half of the Nebraska game with another RU diehard, who also watches football and hoops and in between Nebraska scoring plays, RU punts and an otherwise non-descript game, the obvious conversations came up regarding Flood and what options if any were available to RU if the trend line continues.

I think the overall mistake being made by all RU fans and fans that watched Schiano and our Big East competition was the theory or notion that the Big East was an actual BCS caliber conference or at the same level of the ACC, Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12 or SEC. Since the Big East had a seat at the table of BCS bowl games and the conference had an underdogs mentality, it provided the thought process that in "head to head" matchups in OOC or during Bowl season that when West Virginia or others matched up in the limited opportunities with the B1G, SEC and Big 12, that the Big East was capable of competing, week in and week out.

The fact now remains that although many are determined to give the Big East that credit, it is now being exposed as not having the overall player depth BUT also lacked the top end coaches as well.

If we are fair and look at what coaches have done after the breakup of the Big East, let's look at where certain coaches landed and what level of success they enjoyed AFTER they left the annual competition of the Big East.

Rich Rod- Still considered an above average coach, but did not deliver Michigan back to the level they expected and ultimately dismantled an already 9 win program, because former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr could not be USC in the Rose Bowl or didn't dominate rival Ohio State under Tressel. Rodriguez getting exposed in the B1G wasn't surprising, they lacked the players to run his system, but he also has had an uneven Arizona tenure as well. I would not place Arizona in the top half of football power programs in the Pac 12, but I don't think Rich Rod is going to take that next step there.

Greg Schiano-I keep hearing about how RU football really was only started under Terry Shea, but the stark reality was and still is, RU has always been a 5-7 win program, with normal recruiting and talent in our area. The Dick Anderson and Graber days are not far off from the Schiano days, if you eliminate the 2006 season. RU also played a significantly tougher schedule in the late 80's and early 90's vs whatever Schiano and the new Big East developed into, and got progressively easier after Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College left the league. We can argue that Schiano was a National Coach of the Year and deservedly so for 2006's magical ride. But on the surface, RU would be essentially the same program if they played a tougher schedule or in a better conference. We are discovering that right now as RU enters a true balanced league, that is supported with better coaching staffs, top to bottom in this conference vs anything seen in the Big East.

Charlie Strong-won and rebuilt a slow developing program after Kragthorpe left, but it was not THAT far removed from the winning of Petrino. Strong developed a recruiting base in South Florida to help Louisville grow enough that they earned an ACC invtie (along with their hoops success), but Strong's resume was built on winning a Big East title by beating Rutgers in 2012 and ultimately dismantling a Florida team that was thought to be much better in the Sugar Bowl. If we are fair about how good Bridgewater is and can fairly look back at Muschamp not really doing much with Florida's talent, Louisville was a questionable call on a lineman down field vs RU from never seeing the Sugar Bowl.

Randy Edsell----A fan favorite for taking the under rated and under dog Huskies to levels not seen since then, but begs the question...who was Edsell defeating......Jim Leavitt at USF, Kragthorpe at Louisville, Rich Rod (no) but perhaps Bill Stewart when he took over for Rich Rod at WVU....We can all agree that Edsell maximized his time at UConn, but the reality is, he was never that good of a coach and his time at Maryland, exposed him for what he was....an average coach, matched with other somewhat above average coaches in a now, overrated league.

I can continue with Bill Stewart, and others but the one program that demonstrated an ability to find and hire coaches was Cinci, with Dantonio, Brian Kelly, and Butch Jones and like it or not, all three coaches maximized Cinci to an extent that Dantonio & Kelly can be argued are two of the Top 10 coaches in college football.

This is not to minimize the matchups that West Virginia put up against Oklahoma or Georgia in their BCS games that carried the flag for the Big East back then to give the league a level of confidence. But in theory, before we automatically assume that Schiano returning (which isn't happening by the way), solves the riddle of recruiting and on field success, be careful....his competition back then is now shown as not as strong as we would believe in most instances and he's going up a level or 2 or 3, in the Big Ten.....the Big Ten is now significantly better today vs 2006-2011, when RU was in the Big East.

We have actual results that you have to look back on and evaluate NOW, vs holding opinions from before on not necessarily what happened during bowl matchups...sometimes that cannot be the best way to evaluate one conference vs another. Let's look back at the reputations of what coaches built their resumes on and they didn't necessarily do so again what you would consider programs or other coaches that were that good.

I would argue that Flood's resume could look or feel much different with a win over Louisville and perhaps even a close win vs Florida in the Sugar Bowl (Florida could not score and RU's OL was probably not going to block Florida pass rush), but at worse, Flood could have been a BCS bowl game coach.

This is also to say that Flood's initial resume of the 2012 team could have won more with better QB play but Flood is now working against better overall staffs and RU as a program needs better coordinators on game day to mask the rosters flaws against better competition. The question becomes what path are you taking to close this gap and at what cost??

I'm sure there will be detractors that will not recognize the Big East as not being inferior, but the depth of the conference has proven that it hasn't been what we thought it was and the coaches success levels leaving the Big East has also not been there as well. With Rich Rod, Strong, Edsell etc.....what separates Schiano from being classified with these coaches, when he was evaluated based on his success, going against these same staffs??

Looking for feedback on whether this is a flawed evaluation or is the current review of these coaches fair at their new jobs??.....I just don't see Schiano or a lot of these coaches thriving in better leagues and RU needs to get creative and find a true ace Offensive or Defensive Coordinator that fits the price points we are working from, before thinking the next MAC or AAC level head coach immediately launches RU from 5-6 win category to 8-9 wins. It will take more than a Schiano type of coach to get his done here at RU.

Have to disagree.

The 2006 Sugar Bowl, when WVU beat #8 ranked Georgia and the 2008 Fiesta Bowl, when WVU beat #3 ranked Oklahoma come to mind.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[lighty]

It's funny how people downplay the ability of a guy like Rich Rod even though he CRUSHED other teams in the bowl games -- even the big bowls.

 

[Ole Cabbagehead]

Are you being a Floodie?

If only the players did their part and executed a pretty good game plan that night....what could have been.

Better be careful to not draw too much attention to yourself. The Scarlet Nation Un-Rutgers Activities Committee is probably parsing your posting history as we speak.

"Sir, have you or have you not made "pro-Flood" posts on an internet message board"

"I will ask you again sir....have you or have you not made "pro-Flood" posts on an internet message board"

 

[RU2055]

Let's look at this another way ......... hypothetically speaking, let's say Rutgers got left behind in the AAC. What do you think our record would be? Be honest. Do you really think Flood's record would be better against Fuentes, Herrman, Niumatalolo, etc? Keep in mind Memphis beat Ole Miss.

The B1G East is murderers row - no debate there. Acknowledging the greatness of the coaches in the division we play in and the incompetence of ours are not mutually exclusive.

As far as Schiano is concerned, he hasn't coached in the B1G so whatever assumptions anybody may have, it's all hypothetical. As Rutgers Al said, if Schiano can go toe to toe with lesser players against Pete Carroll and the Super Bowl Champ Seahawks, it means the guy can coach.

 

[rutgersdave]

If you mean that the Big East coaches don't dominate the othe P5 teams you are right, only Kelly and Dantonio are dominate. Rich Rod is only 8-5, 8-5, and 10-2 at Arizona and 6-5 now. It might be to early to judge Strong in Texas and he won't get the time to turn it around. Graham who was 6-6 at Pitt had 10 wins in 2013 and 2014 and was PAC coach of the year 2013. Tenn Jones can definitely recruit and too early to judge. There are few coaches that dominate college football and get 10 wins a season anymore.

You're analysis is totally wrong since the success rate is about 40% and may be higher since it's to early to decide for a few of these coaches. Flood , on the other hand, is not a good coach and no additional time will change that.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

as for schiano, he accomplished what no other coach accomplished on field and academic success relative to rutgers. this is what stands out significantly relative to graber and anderson. .

I always find it funny that people are always too scared to compare GS to Burns, graber and anderson were nowhere near as good as Burns.

 

[ScarletNut]

I had a conversation sitting and chatting during the 1st half of the Nebraska game with another RU diehard, who also watches football and hoops and in between Nebraska scoring plays, RU punts and an otherwise non-descript game, the obvious conversations came up regarding Flood and what options if any were available to RU if the trend line continues.

I think the overall mistake being made by all RU fans and fans that watched Schiano and our Big East competition was the theory or notion that the Big East was an actual BCS caliber conference or at the same level of the ACC, Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12 or SEC. Since the Big East had a seat at the table of BCS bowl games and the conference had an underdogs mentality, it provided the thought process that in "head to head" matchups in OOC or during Bowl season that when West Virginia or others matched up in the limited opportunities with the B1G, SEC and Big 12, that the Big East was capable of competing, week in and week out.

The fact now remains that although many are determined to give the Big East that credit, it is now being exposed as not having the overall player depth BUT also lacked the top end coaches as well.

If we are fair and look at what coaches have done after the breakup of the Big East, let's look at where certain coaches landed and what level of success they enjoyed AFTER they left the annual competition of the Big East.

Rich Rod- Still considered an above average coach, but did not deliver Michigan back to the level they expected and ultimately dismantled an already 9 win program, because former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr could not be USC in the Rose Bowl or didn't dominate rival Ohio State under Tressel. Rodriguez getting exposed in the B1G wasn't surprising, they lacked the players to run his system, but he also has had an uneven Arizona tenure as well. I would not place Arizona in the top half of football power programs in the Pac 12, but I don't think Rich Rod is going to take that next step there.

Greg Schiano-I keep hearing about how RU football really was only started under Terry Shea, but the stark reality was and still is, RU has always been a 5-7 win program, with normal recruiting and talent in our area. The Dick Anderson and Graber days are not far off from the Schiano days, if you eliminate the 2006 season. RU also played a significantly tougher schedule in the late 80's and early 90's vs whatever Schiano and the new Big East developed into, and got progressively easier after Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College left the league. We can argue that Schiano was a National Coach of the Year and deservedly so for 2006's magical ride. But on the surface, RU would be essentially the same program if they played a tougher schedule or in a better conference. We are discovering that right now as RU enters a true balanced league, that is supported with better coaching staffs, top to bottom in this conference vs anything seen in the Big East.

Charlie Strong-won and rebuilt a slow developing program after Kragthorpe left, but it was not THAT far removed from the winning of Petrino. Strong developed a recruiting base in South Florida to help Louisville grow enough that they earned an ACC invtie (along with their hoops success), but Strong's resume was built on winning a Big East title by beating Rutgers in 2012 and ultimately dismantling a Florida team that was thought to be much better in the Sugar Bowl. If we are fair about how good Bridgewater is and can fairly look back at Muschamp not really doing much with Florida's talent, Louisville was a questionable call on a lineman down field vs RU from never seeing the Sugar Bowl.

Randy Edsell----A fan favorite for taking the under rated and under dog Huskies to levels not seen since then, but begs the question...who was Edsell defeating......Jim Leavitt at USF, Kragthorpe at Louisville, Rich Rod (no) but perhaps Bill Stewart when he took over for Rich Rod at WVU....We can all agree that Edsell maximized his time at UConn, but the reality is, he was never that good of a coach and his time at Maryland, exposed him for what he was....an average coach, matched with other somewhat above average coaches in a now, overrated league.

I can continue with Bill Stewart, and others but the one program that demonstrated an ability to find and hire coaches was Cinci, with Dantonio, Brian Kelly, and Butch Jones and like it or not, all three coaches maximized Cinci to an extent that Dantonio & Kelly can be argued are two of the Top 10 coaches in college football.

This is not to minimize the matchups that West Virginia put up against Oklahoma or Georgia in their BCS games that carried the flag for the Big East back then to give the league a level of confidence. But in theory, before we automatically assume that Schiano returning (which isn't happening by the way), solves the riddle of recruiting and on field success, be careful....his competition back then is now shown as not as strong as we would believe in most instances and he's going up a level or 2 or 3, in the Big Ten.....the Big Ten is now significantly better today vs 2006-2011, when RU was in the Big East.

We have actual results that you have to look back on and evaluate NOW, vs holding opinions from before on not necessarily what happened during bowl matchups...sometimes that cannot be the best way to evaluate one conference vs another. Let's look back at the reputations of what coaches built their resumes on and they didn't necessarily do so again what you would consider programs or other coaches that were that good.

I would argue that Flood's resume could look or feel much different with a win over Louisville and perhaps even a close win vs Florida in the Sugar Bowl (Florida could not score and RU's OL was probably not going to block Florida pass rush), but at worse, Flood could have been a BCS bowl game coach.

This is also to say that Flood's initial resume of the 2012 team could have won more with better QB play but Flood is now working against better overall staffs and RU as a program needs better coordinators on game day to mask the rosters flaws against better competition. The question becomes what path are you taking to close this gap and at what cost??

I'm sure there will be detractors that will not recognize the Big East as not being inferior, but the depth of the conference has proven that it hasn't been what we thought it was and the coaches success levels leaving the Big East has also not been there as well. With Rich Rod, Strong, Edsell etc.....what separates Schiano from being classified with these coaches, when he was evaluated based on his success, going against these same staffs??

Looking for feedback on whether this is a flawed evaluation or is the current review of these coaches fair at their new jobs??.....I just don't see Schiano or a lot of these coaches thriving in better leagues and RU needs to get creative and find a true ace Offensive or Defensive Coordinator that fits the price points we are working from, before thinking the next MAC or AAC level head coach immediately launches RU from 5-6 win category to 8-9 wins. It will take more than a Schiano type of coach to get his done here at RU.

Excellent post Hawk. Although I hold higher regard for Rodriguez and Strong than you do, I can appreciate your argument. The post should be required reading for those longing for Schiano.

 

[raritan1]

Disagree. Just an overall rationalization to support the dubious contention that we’d be better off with some OC or DC from a brand name school.

You’re telling me that you wouldn’t want a Strong, Schiano, Dantonio, Kelly, or Jones at RU? Seriously?

My concern is if we dismiss Flood, we’ll hire an OC from some school and pray that he’s got the ability to build a Big Ten program. OK, tell me who we play year in and year out who is coaching a Big Ten program and who came to their job from an OC position. Wilson is the only one I can think of. Meyer, Harbaugh, Franklin, Dantonio, Edsall, Riley, and Crist all has prior HC experience at the FBS level. And, we need to put money behind the staff.

We’re better off hiring an established coach, who may be out of work, but who has been around the bend a few times. RU needs credibility, not a guy who is learning to be a HFC in the toughest division in college football, which is what we have now.

 

[megadrone]

It's funny how people downplay the ability of a guy like Rich Rod even though he CRUSHED other teams in the bowl games -- even the big bowls.

Have to disagree.

The 2006 Sugar Bowl, when WVU beat #8 ranked Georgia and the 2008 Fiesta Bowl, when WVU beat #3 ranked Oklahoma come to mind.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Looking at individual games is not the same as looking at the grind of conference play. RichRod would have been the best coach of the bunch, and his defense was soft. He could have proven himself at Michigan if he had 2 more years, but his style of play was completely foreign to the talent he had at Michigan (worked well at WVU). If you are only looking at individual games, the best coach in BE 2.0 would have been Bill Stewart and he should have been up there with Vince Lombardi.

 

[RU2055]

More than the coaches, I think the case with guys like Rich Rod proves that when all things are equal - Pro Style beats out the Spread - look at Oregon. I don't think the Spread will work in the B1G East. It's the reason why it doesn't work in the NFL (Chip Kelly?).

I think to succeed in the B1G East you need a good defensive minded coach with a good pro-style mind. Just MVHO.

 

[rutgersguy1]

More than the coaches, I think the case with guys like Rich Rod proves that when all things are equal - Pro Style beats out the Spread - look at Oregon. I don't think the Spread will work in the B1G East. It's the reason why it doesn't work in the NFL (Chip Kelly?).

I think to succeed in the B1G East you need a good defensive minded coach with a good pro-style mind. Just MVHO.

Look at Oregon? The team that was a finalist for the national championship last year and rose to prominence on the back of a spread and most likely wouldn't sniff the success they've had without it. Same for Arizona would they have had their fleeting success without it as well and all the mid majors and schools like Miss. St/Ole Miss/Baylor. Sometimes it's fleeting and sometimes it's lasting but it's the best avenue to overachieving your status on the college landscape.

 

[RU84]

Great perspective and analysis. Completely agree and caution those pining for Schiano. Greg brought the program from terrible to mediocre with a few memorable highlights but be careful what you wish for in your next coach. Props to Greg for bringing turning embarrassment into some semblance of pride in RU football but memories are short as his shortcomings seem to dissipate over time. Easy for many to forget the later years of his tenure: a cupcake out of conference schedule and the fact RU's rise in the BE standings coincided with the flight of the top teams to the ACC. Despite the fact the BE kept getting worse and the top teams kept leaving, WVU and Cincy pretty much owned him. To take that next step, I think we need a fresh face, probably a top mid-major coach or P5 coordinator. If the program is to take that next step, it needs to look beyond Schiano.

 

[mdk01]

I have to disagree with respect to the ACC. Yes, the SEC and most of the other conferences played at a different level, but the BE was the equal if not better of the ACC.

 

[ru66]

many on here jump to the latest flavor of the month--I only hope that if he's fired that a really thoughtful, complete and professional choice will be made-but I kind of doubt it

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Solid post. Cincy seemed to have our number most years. They continue to do a lot with a little bit of talent. We could do the same.

No question, however, you're NOT going to "do well" with "a little bit of talent" running a Pro-Set, in this division, in this conference. Change O's, to one that CAN beat better D's with our talent level, and you've got a shot (with a much better D and ST's).

**** this is EXACTLY why GS is NOT at the top of my "wishlist."

 

[rutgersdave]

Anyone on this board would take Rich Rodriguez, Charles Strong, Graham, Brian Kelly, Dantonio or Butch Jones without a doubt. That's almost 80-90% of the coaches from the BE. Edsell problem is he was never a strong recruiter and he used a pro offense.

 

[srru86]

Meanwhile in Philly from the Inquirer
Temple deserves big crowd for Memphis game

 

[MoobyCow]

Someone should post Schiano's win/lost record against teams that finished with winning records and teams that finished ranked.

I only have 2006 on easily available, but for teams that finished in the Massey top 25 he was 3-5. Teams in the top 30, 6-8.

Both numbers seem pretty respectable to me.

 

[chase07470]

Not buying it. Michigan and Rich Rod for three years was not enough time to turn over the roster. Arizona is in the middle of nowhere and as a program, it's second tier Pac 10 all the way, making it extremely difficult to get anything but what's left after the UCLA's, USC's Oregon's, Stanford's and even Washington, ASU and Cal pick their players. He dominated a conference in the Big East where he was on a level playing field for talent. Lets see what he does in his next stop.

Flood beating Florida? He got blown out by Virginia Tech with a QB so mentally mind f**ked from being left out there through epic struggles in the second half of his sophomore year. And anyway, he was handed a defense with a half dozen NFL players and a DC schooled by the coach who recruited, designed and developed the unit. Even if we had beat Florida, I wouldn't have given Flood much credit.

As for Schiano, the guy runs a program of real substance as evidenced by all the NFL players he was churning out. He does it in a way that completely supports the University mission. People complain about the offense but they forget that Rutgers is the only team in the history of college football to have a 3,000 yard passer (Teel) a 2,000 yard rusher (Rice) and two 1,000 yard receivers (Underwood and Britt), in the same season. The guy didn't get dumber, he was recruiting at Rutgers, in the big east and following the offensive explosion, blew it on his OL recruiting which paralyzed the offense for three or four years and that became his legacy for the detractors.

I think his NFL player production makes recruiting easier for him. He has the rep, the NFL knows all about his kids now. I think being in the B1G will mitigate the risk of being thin at position groups that that plagued and prevented him from being a championship coach. And if he produces mediocre results again, then in four or five years, the next coach gets handed what Flood was handed. You make a mistake with a MAC coach and we're Purdue in a couple of short years. I'd like to see that risk mitigated. We know the money is coming, take the security of handing off a healthy program and bet that the better recruiting this time vs. last time puts Schiano over the top as a coach.

 

[rutgersdave]

Not buying it. Michigan and Rich Rod for three years was not enough time to turn over the roster. Arizona is in the middle of nowhere and as a program, it's second tier Pac 10 all the way, making it extremely difficult to get anything but what's left after the UCLA's, USC's Oregon's, Stanford's and even Washington, ASU and Cal pick their players. He dominated a conference in the Big East where he was on a level playing field for talent. Lets see what he does in his next stop.

Flood beating Florida? He got blown out by Virginia Tech with a QB so mentally mind f**ked from being left out there through epic struggles in the second half of his sophomore year. And anyway, he was handed a defense with a half dozen NFL players and a DC schooled by the coach who recruited, designed and developed the unit. Even if we had beat Florida, I wouldn't have given Flood much credit.

As for Schiano, the guy runs a program of real substance as evidenced by all the NFL players he was churning out. He does it in a way that completely supports the University mission. People complain about the offense but they forget that Rutgers is the only team in the history of college football to have a 3,000 yard passer (Teel) a 2,000 yard rusher (Rice) and two 1,000 yard receivers (Underwood and Britt), in the same season. The guy didn't get dumber, he was recruiting at Rutgers, in the big east and following the offensive explosion, blew it on his OL recruiting which paralyzed the offense for three or four years and that became his legacy for the detractors.

I think his NFL player production makes recruiting easier for him. He has the rep, the NFL knows all about his kids now. I think being in the B1G will mitigate the risk of being thin at position groups that that plagued and prevented him from being a championship coach. And if he produces mediocre results again, then in four or five years, the next coach gets handed what Flood was handed. You make a mistake with a MAC coach and we're Purdue in a couple of short years. I'd like to see that risk mitigated. We know the money is coming, take the security of handing off a healthy program and bet that the better recruiting this time vs. last time puts Schiano over the top as a coach.

We might have 1 or 2 NFL players under Flood after Carroo is gone, none drafted.

 

[CornerTavern]

What about Mark Dantonio and Brian Kelly?

 

[RUChris]

The Big East football conference finished off with a 7-year run of .500 (only once) or better bowl records and in almost every statistical analysis was placed somewhere among the rest of the BCS conferences as opposed to non-AQ. The reason why it's so easy to write them off is there was no marquee powerhouse team that consistently dominated and with only 8 teams there was less of a chance of having a team that could win 11-12 games in a year. In my opinion it was tough from the aspect in that there were not many doormat teams either. However, I do understand that it was a bit unlike other conferences where you had one or two games a year practically guaranteed vs. a top 5 team.

I understand the point being made and think running through the Big East required a different mindset than other conferences, but I would not agree that it was an inferior league. In the end what doomed the big east was it's small size, lack of focus, and lack of name brand programs taking up mind share in the national media. Of course $$$ as well.

Finally, re: Greg, sans the 2010 squad, I would put my money on any Schiano squad from 2005-2011 vs. all of Flood's teams. Schiano is in some aspects the Devil we know, and I have no reason to believe the off the field stuff would be occurring under his watch, at least not to the magnitude we have seen so far.

People saying "we need to be creative"...at this point I just want some stability and shoring up of the ship, which is leaking badly. I'm worried that Rutgers as a football program is dangerously close to falling into an abyss and a rolling the dice on an otherwise unproven coach increases that risk.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Meanwhile in Philly from the Inquirer
Temple deserves big crowd for Memphis game

1) they won't come close to busting 40,000 IN THE STANDS and

2) the attendance #'s listed, for the Tulane and UCF(?) games, are incredibly inflated if you saw even snippets of either game (IIRC ESPNU and CBSSN)

 

[buffalochicken21]

So much revisionist history going on here it's funny.

Rich Rod just went to the Fiesta Bowl last year and put his team into the championship game of a scrappy Pac-12 last year.

The 2006 Big East Conference was very legit the year Shiano had his "magical ride" if we want to insult the guy who's the sole reason we're in the Big Ten by calling it that. The Big East was undefeated in bowls that year, and had 3 top 10 teams consistently.

The Bill Stewart/Kyle Flood (mirror images of each other) Big East was terrible. Yes it was bad. But to say the Big East was always weaker than the ACC is now, is not very accurate. Hell, the ACC now more or less is the Big East, how can it suddenly be so much better than the BE ever was?

We have no idea what Schiano can do again in college football, but tell yourselves he's bad all you want. If the next guy is another flop (and he'll be inheriting a bare cupboard), we'll be begging for a guy like Schiano. We can do much much worse.

 

[RU2055]

Look at Oregon? The team that was a finalist for the national championship last year and rose to prominence on the back of a spread and most likely wouldn't sniff the success they've had without it. Same for Arizona would they have had their fleeting success without it as well and all the mid majors and schools like Miss. St/Ole Miss/Baylor. Sometimes it's fleeting and sometimes it's lasting but it's the best avenue to overachieving your status on the college landscape.

Yes, of course Oregon has a lot of success. But it's my humble observation that when a great spread team is pitted against a great Pro-style team (which is why I said all things being equal), the Pro-Style team usually wins. Which is why you don't see spread teams like Oregon win the NC too often.

BTW, I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go to a spread. I'm just saying maybe it's one of the reasons RR struggled in the B1G. Obviously 3 years being too short to get his type of players to run his offense played a big factor too.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Yes, of course Oregon has a lot of success. But it's my humble observation that when a great spread team is pitted against a great Pro-style team (which is why I said all things being equal), the Pro-Style team usually wins. Which is why you don't see spread teams like Oregon win the NC too often.

BTW, I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go to a spread. I'm just saying maybe it's the reason RR struggled in the B1G.

I think the main reason RR struggled in the B10 is he had no defense and he made a really poor choice in Greg Robinson. OSU runs a spread and they beat Alabama on the way to their national championship. Meyer ran it at Florida too. Actually, any loss of Alabama in recent years can be attributed to a spread team. Pro style teams like LSU/Georgia usually lose to Alabama and they both were handled this year.

In the PAC12 he's doing fine, it's not as if he's terrible and he had the one good year. I'd expect him to have more good years if he stays there but I don't know how consistently ranked they will be as long as he doesn't have a defense. That's his biggest issue IMO. Some years his offense performs so well to overcome it but others maybe not as much.

 

[RU2055]

I think the main reason RR struggled in the B10 is he had no defense and he made a really poor choice in Greg Robinson. OSU runs a spread and they beat Alabama on the way to their national championship. Meyer ran it at Florida too. Actually, any loss of Alabama in recent years can be attributed to a spread team. Pro style teams like LSU/Georgia usually lose to Alabama and they both were handled this year.

In the PAC12 he's doing fine, it's not as if he's terrible and he had the one good year. I'd expect him to have more good years if he stays there but I don't know how consistently ranked they will be as long as he doesn't have a defense. That's his biggest issue IMO. Some years his offense performs so well to overcome it but others maybe not as much.

Meyer's run a modified spread.
http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2015/4/26/8424391/ohio-state-football-spread-offense-pew-pew

It's still predicated on a power run first offense.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Better be careful to not draw too much attention to yourself. The Scarlet Nation Un-Rutgers Activities Committee is probably parsing your posting history as we speak.

"Sir, have you or have you not made "pro-Flood" posts on an internet message board"

"I will ask you again sir....have you or have you not made "pro-Flood" posts on an internet message board"

Oh, no!!! Here they come!

 

[rutgersguy1]

Meyer's run a modified spread.
http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2015/4/26/8424391/ohio-state-football-spread-offense-pew-pew

They're all modified depending on the coach. Spread is such a general term it can be anything from Mike Leach who chucks it all over to Meyer/Malzahn/RR who run a more physical ground based read option spread. Malzahn has said he doesn't consider his offense a spread too. Even Baylor who most think chuck it all over, and they do, is one of the top rushing teams in the country. I looked it up earlier and at that time I think 9 of the top 20 rushing teams ran a spread and some names you think wouldn't be there were.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Not buying it. Michigan and Rich Rod for three years was not enough time to turn over the roster.

Rich Rod had Athletic Department personnel actively working against him almost from the moment he came on board. His hire was widely disliked by a certain percentage of people simply because he wasn't a "Michigan" man.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Rich Rod is a very good coach, but I am only comparing his staff and work against his current conference. He got Arizona to the Pac 12 title game last year, but I am not sure anyone is ready to place him at the top 4 of a very balanced Pac 12 conference.

The other good points here in this thread are to support Dantonio and Kelly, who I think have earned their status. Jones the jury is still out on, but I think the wars of the SEC can really wear on you. Jones gets a break in Spurrier retiring and maybe Georgia gets silly and fires Richt...that would open the door for Tennessee again in the SEC East division.

I also think the Pro style system helps RU in recruiting and Schiano's players all got better at the next level, which I've posted before is an indictment on his coaching ability....your players should not get better after they leave the program.

I also know that RU will have at least 5 to 7 players on this roster land on NFL teams next 3 years and we all are aware of Carroo and Lumpkin.....be careful to assume this cupboard is bare, when it currently isn't...I count at least 8 locks on this current roster that are recruited by Flood and this staff, but they need better coaching at the assistant level on game day, to showcase their talents.

In any event, to summarize, yes, we can do worse than Schiano, but I would temper expectations severely as far as winning actual games. I tend to feel that we are in a recruiting mindset 24/7/365 and fans are more concerned with winning the off-season or popularity contest of recruiting vs actual game day execution and game planning. There are 12 games a year and in most cases 4 of those game days, RU stands little to no chance of winning right now, especially on the road in the Big Ten. That leaves you eight game days to actually evaluate how you measure up. Schiano is a good coach, I'm not so sure how good anymore, after seeing the results and who we competed against year in and year out. This is a new era of college football and I'm not so sure going back to the well, is the answer.