Game 23: Penn State thoughts
- Thread starter bac2therac
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how can you seriously make this comparison? you think these 3 are great shooters just having a slump? (sorry, not attacking you but this is a head scratcher for me).
Watched the game later last night on DVR.
The refs started off largely with a "let them play" position and swallowed their whistle. Watching Freeman get blown up and sent flying to the floor away from the ball right in front of the ref in the first couple of minutes set a tone of "we're not going to call squat", and that largely played out early. Tons of calls just went unwhistled on both sides - fouls, travels, illegal screens, etc.
I figured that would end up playing in our favor - as we're much less able to adapt to foul trouble with our lack of depth, and it would allow us to play grittier defense.
Of course, then we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn offensively, and any thought that we'd be able to keep pace on the scoreboard went away.
Later on, the refs started to call some weird ticky tack stuff along with letting bigger stuff go - so it wasn't even a consistent "we're not calling squat" philosophy, as that seemed to come and go. If we were even a half-way decent offensive team yesterday, though, the way the game was called would have allowed us to build a 6-8 point halftime lead.
Unfortunately, Sanders, Baker, and Thiam didn't show up the first half. Then the wheels started to come off the bus in the second, as has been discussed a bunch already in this thread.
Bright spots:
- Thiam finally hit a couple, which hopefully lets the "yips" fade behind him. Yeesh that was an ugly stretch of shots from range for a while. He did start looking more for an inside game, and found some success there - need that aspect of his game next year. Seeing more and more parts come together as confidence increases. Great to see.
- Omoruyi continues to do a great job with defense, positioning, and poise - really like what I see out of him, and look forward to more of it next year. He drew 2 or 3 more offensive fouls this game, and probably could have gotten 2 more if the refs were calling a tighter game. He needs to give the rest of the team a clinic in the offseason.
- Mensah did a decent job on defense. Again a nonfactor offensively and the turnovers and fouls crept in late in his minutes, but he certainly had more "want to be there" than Sanders seemed to. He was forced to play too many minutes at a time - but Sanders really needed to see the bench for a while there.
- Doucoure largely played within himself and without fouling in the early going - showing progress, and hopefully that continues
- Sa played well overall, and Pike should really consider giving him a start or two with Doucoure coming off the bench.
The refs started off largely with a "let them play" position and swallowed their whistle. Watching Freeman get blown up and sent flying to the floor away from the ball right in front of the ref in the first couple of minutes set a tone of "we're not going to call squat", and that largely played out early. Tons of calls just went unwhistled on both sides - fouls, travels, illegal screens, etc.
I figured that would end up playing in our favor - as we're much less able to adapt to foul trouble with our lack of depth, and it would allow us to play grittier defense.
Of course, then we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn offensively, and any thought that we'd be able to keep pace on the scoreboard went away.
Later on, the refs started to call some weird ticky tack stuff along with letting bigger stuff go - so it wasn't even a consistent "we're not calling squat" philosophy, as that seemed to come and go. If we were even a half-way decent offensive team yesterday, though, the way the game was called would have allowed us to build a 6-8 point halftime lead.
Unfortunately, Sanders, Baker, and Thiam didn't show up the first half. Then the wheels started to come off the bus in the second, as has been discussed a bunch already in this thread.
Bright spots:
- Thiam finally hit a couple, which hopefully lets the "yips" fade behind him. Yeesh that was an ugly stretch of shots from range for a while. He did start looking more for an inside game, and found some success there - need that aspect of his game next year. Seeing more and more parts come together as confidence increases. Great to see.
- Omoruyi continues to do a great job with defense, positioning, and poise - really like what I see out of him, and look forward to more of it next year. He drew 2 or 3 more offensive fouls this game, and probably could have gotten 2 more if the refs were calling a tighter game. He needs to give the rest of the team a clinic in the offseason.
- Mensah did a decent job on defense. Again a nonfactor offensively and the turnovers and fouls crept in late in his minutes, but he certainly had more "want to be there" than Sanders seemed to. He was forced to play too many minutes at a time - but Sanders really needed to see the bench for a while there.
- Doucoure largely played within himself and without fouling in the early going - showing progress, and hopefully that continues
- Sa played well overall, and Pike should really consider giving him a start or two with Doucoure coming off the bench.
Because on this board you’d think that good shooters are just born that way and don’t develop over their college careers. Steph Curry only shot 38% from 3p his senior year in college.
So bottom line is that they can continue to develop, grow, and improve as shooters, especially the younger ones.
I do think that Thiam is a good three point shooter who had a slump. It seemed a bit like he was spiraling, too - not just missing badly, but hesitating to shoot and then missing badly. Seemed working in some inside game helped get him "unstuck" and he hit two with confidence later in the game. Really hope that stretch is behind him. His biggest weakness really is confidence at this point.
Really hope he can develop more of a "killer instinct" as a junior. He has the tools, and has shown flashes here and there - he just needs to cultivate that "demand the ball" mentality. With more confidence, he becomes a walking matchup problem. If Omoruyi is a "baby Draymond", Thiam could potentially grow into a "baby Durant" type role (obviously neither are near the caliber of those two players - but they could emulate their style of play, albeit at a lower level of performance). Needs to be stronger and have more confidence - but he has a skillset (along with his height/length) that could really let him be a major contributor next year.
yes they can....but I'd take 38% from 3 any day of the week and 2x on Sunday. Sanders is 22%, Williams is 24%, Baker is 34% and Thiam IS 38%. So two of the older one's went way down and hopefully the two younger one's improve (I think they will)
Count me in the "shooters are born that way" camp. With a LOT of work, some guys can get marginally better over the course of the limited college career window but most times guys just are who they are. They're either a shooter or they're not. Not sure you want to use Steph Curry as an example here. You mentioned he shot 38% from three his final year in college which means that his shooting % actually DROPPED from the 40% he shot in his first year in college so not only did he not improve during his college years, he got marginally worse percentage wise. What he has done in the years when he has been a fully dedicated professional athlete is irrelevant in my opinion.
Sanders just isn't an outside shooter. He's a slasher who has a good pull up from the elbow - but he's just not great from outside the arc. The NBA arc is 3 feet further back, which is well outside his range.
Williams also isn't really an outside shooter. He's a "glue guy" who does the dirty work of fighting for rebounds, getting offensive putbacks, getting loose balls, playing defense, etc... He's a career .291 shooter from range, with his best season shooting .319
Baker is much more of an outside shooter, and I expect him to improve when there are more options and the defense can't key in on him so much. The last few games he's had a ton of pressure extending well behind the arc, and he's struggled to get open looks. He's also playing 35 min/game, and I think running into a fatigue wall. He's shooting 34% right now, but I could see him edging up closer to 40% over the next couple of years.
Thiam *is* an outside shooter, who hit a bad run for 1.5 games. Going into the Nebraska game, he was shooting .465 from range in conference. He's still hesitant and concerned about getting blocked, which distracts him - but as his confidence grows, so will his shot. I can definitely see him shooting .400 or better the next couple of years - better if we can actually get an inside/out game where our PF passes the ball out of double teams.
Harper Jr has a good base on his shot, follows through well, and has proper mechanics. HIs catch is at the chest, and his release is at a speed of about 7.5/10. He also actively spaces well, and knows his spots.
I am relying on Mathis to bring driving, defense, and rebounding. A Mike Williams type of player, but more athletic.
Harper Jr might have that shot that translates quicker to D1. He is a confident shooter, and just has a good feel to his game. I am hoping he can contribute there.
I am relying on Mathis to bring driving, defense, and rebounding. A Mike Williams type of player, but more athletic.
Harper Jr might have that shot that translates quicker to D1. He is a confident shooter, and just has a good feel to his game. I am hoping he can contribute there.
This can go either way. Looking at past Rutgers guards, some have remained the same or regressed after their freshman year (Williams, Sanders, Mack, Coburn, Farmer, Webb, Douby, Lamizana, T. Billet) while others have improved (Rosario, Shields, Greer, D. Jones, Flores, G. Billet, Hodgson).
Remains to be seen how Baker turns out. Thiam is already a much better three point shooter as a sophomore (.376) than as a freshman (.303).
That is what you want to see and why his development (and EO's ) ..and hopefully Baker's is creating hope..2 years from now we should have something..
At the end of the day we scored 43 points... because Sanders, Freeman, and Baker (our 3 leading scorers in conference, averaging 32.9 ppg) combined for 3-23 shooting for 9 points, and the points from our 4th leading scorer (Williams, 7.2 ppg in conference) haven't been replaced by any of the guys taking his minutes.
So, out of 40.1 points on average this year out of our top 4 scorers.... we got 9.
So, out of 40.1 points on average this year out of our top 4 scorers.... we got 9.
That’s right, 43 points. As I mentioned earlier, I thought Coach made 2 decisions that did not work out. First, he kept Corey on the bench 4 minutes too long.He was sending a message but he sacrificed a chance for a comeback down only 7 with 1132 left and getting everything he could have hoped out of Souf. Second, he could have switched to zone, as the team expended so much energy coming back from 14 to 7, plus playing probably the best, most intense defense, swarming and rotating perfectly for 30 minutes, but as we saw down the stretch we had no legs left and Penn State put on a dunking clinic.
Looking at the stats, Penn State won a game shooting 43% for the game, 27% from three and 58% from the line and turning the ball over 16 times. Our shooting was even more atrocious than normal but Coach has to do a better job of getting the bigs the ball on the block and maybe playing inside out and maybe Issa and Geo get better looks and are standing still for a catch and shoot and Eugene and Corey can cut to the hoop more for an easier shot. 2 offensive rebounds on this night was almost unfathomable for our team. Coach has to get back to our core. If we score 60 in 4 games we lost, those are 4 more wins. With 8 games left, Coach has to do some different things on offense involving the bigs more if we are going to win a few of these last 8. The defense is good to great. Time for a retool on the offensive end.
I get what you're saying... but it really boils down to "our players need to play better". Could Pike have put Sanders back in earlier? Possibly... but it's not like he did anything once he came back in the game, either. Switching to a zone would have changed the dunk-a-thon to a three-a-thon.
I think that Sanders/Freeman just hit a point of frustration, and weren't playing well. Baker gets tossed in there, too - and Thiam for the first half (though he did better in the second). Credit to PA St's defense, that was designed to frustrate... but Freeman/Sanders seemed to let it get under their skin moreso than usual.
Agree on our players getting frustrated and pressing when we get down 8-9 pts after having a lead or being neck & neck. It's an all to common stretch for us to come down the floor with 3 or 4 empty trips offensively and the other team will hit a 3ptr or two, some foul shots etc. and we then get off track and undisciplined.
Rutgers was not going to win. More important to send a message than lose by 7
Sanders didn't matter...I like how coach kept him there. Corey was probably thinking..ok I got my time out but coach will put me back in soon..Ahh.....nope.
Also, I thought we went to zone and how we got it back to 7 there...I know we played a little zone yesterday. And I think we do a good job there and would like to see more. But really...defense didn't matter....game was lost other end.
What do you mean Sanders did not matter? The only chance we had to comeback is if he made a difference . You wanted him punished for going 0-7 or for failing to run back after Reeves clearly fouled him and he argued with the ref instead of running back ? Some of you guys would rather punish our best player than win a Rutgers road game. Has Corey dogged it in any game that he deserves your hate? His shot was not falling but he continued to play defense and tried to get the ball to Geo or Issa without any success or shots falling. Frustration got the better part of him not getting any calls from the Big 10 refs throughout the year. But you do not sit him for 9 minutes if you wanted to win that game yesterday .
Plus, before his two game slump, Thiam was shooting over 40% from three. If his shots start falling again he could end the year in that 40% territory.
By taking Peter Kiss instead of a grad transfer and deciding to redshirt Myles Johnson, it's clear Pikiell is coaching more for the future than this year. Did he hope to get over .500? Probably, but without Mike Williams that seems unlikely at the moment. So, he's setting the tone. He sat Corey against Minnesota after getting a technical while RU was still within spitting distance (down 14 and looking like they might make a run). He chewed out Doucoure after his technical. He's still teaching toward the future. Could Rutgers have won that game yesterday Unless Corey or someone suddenly got hot, it didn't look like it was going to happen.
You do realize that 38% is not a very good shooting percentage from 3, especially in college. For example, just this year Purdue has 3 different players shooting over 45% from 3 and another shooting almost 41%.
Td, he will be asked to play at wing a lot, so he will not be chasing guards. Being from Jersey, he will get into a and c quickly. I am sure he loses some weight before start of next season.
Well after missing 11 3p in a row, Thiam is still shooting 38% from 3p and folks act like it’s over for him, lol
Of course I do, but good 3 point shooters shoot over 40%. Virtually every team in the Big 10 has at least one of them! Most have more than one.
Everyone talks about the need for more shooters, which is blatantly clear however we need a true PG as well and as of now we don't have anyone else coming in to handle the rock. If Corey leaves (Not sure where he is going) we are really short there. Alvarado was a major miss for Pike. He looks good at Georgia Tech.
The top 15 players in the conference shoot 41.9% or better, per bigten.org (min 50 attempts, it seems):
Teams on the list by # of appearances:
3 - Purdue, MSU
2 - Maryland, PA St
1 - Illinois, OSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska
That leaves the following schools without one.... their best in parens:
Michigan (41.8%), Minnesota (41.2%), Northwestern (40.3%), Rutgers (37.6%), Indiana (36.1%)
So, it seems like only Rutgers and Indiana lack a 40%+ shooter from deep.
hey goru7, first of all let's not off the hate drama. there is nothing I would like more than for Great Corey to be there game in-game out , be a star, lead RU to wins, and make it big time. That would be awesome for him and RU. When I said he wouldn't matter it was because he was clearly off yesterday. Yeah he's the one but nobody was going to get it done and make a difference. It was clear in the play. If it was about shooting I would have put Baker and Thiam right there next to him.
He got rattled yesterday. Did you hear the students yelling "air ball" every time he got it? It had an effect. Did you see the two (almost back to back) times he lost the ball bringing it up at the top of the key...before this 3rd one that may have been a foul(I didn't see the replay). He was way off on that side of the court.
I'm glad he sat because if that is what it is going to take to get him to the next level then so be it. If he is going to be and wants to be the star then he has to be it. Sometimes it is good to watch from the sidelines (I wish we'd do more of that with our FB quarterbacks playing poorly). I've seen Freeman benched for extended periods too. Fine by me.
Lastly, I'll say again that Pike needs to protect the players more on the fouls. So instead of whining to the refs he needs to confront coach. Maybe get Freeman to join him since he is a Captain and also shows the same behavior at times.
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