Geo Baker Tweet

[flyrradio]

Don't call yourself a rutgers supporter if you are actively supporting something that would put our program and other smaller programs at a tremendous disadvantage to the blue blood schools. Quite frankly, I cannot handle how ignorant it makes you seem.

Again show me why that puts Rutgers at a disadvantage? How has that hurt Gonzaga? Seems like their coaching and continued development pedigree has positioned them well for years and made them a name brand.

The point is, if a player has remarkable talent, wherever they are, they will be able to find marketing opportunities on the national and local level.

By continuing to believe that collegiate athletics should continue to operate as it has since well before the shot clock was invented, is the real ignorance.

 

[sunsetregret]

Customer?? I thought these were “amateur student athletes”

Yeah, they aren't. They are employees of the school's athletics department. They contract for free education (and housing, and food, and books) in exchange for performing on the school's basketball team. They are in the entertainment industry because the reason the athletics department exists is to entertain it's alumni and students (and serve as advertising for the school) in exchange for their entertainment dollar.

 

[fluoxetine]

Yeah, they aren't. They are employees of the school's athletics department. They contract for free education (and housing, and food, and books) in exchange for performing on the school's basketball team. They are in the entertainment industry because the reason the athletics department exists is to entertain it's alumni and students (and serve as advertising for the school) in exchange for their entertainment dollar.

So then why are we using amateur status rules as an excuse to prevent them from doing things anyone else would be allowed to do?

 

[RutgHoops]

Yeah, they aren't. They are employees of the school's athletics department. They contract for free education (and housing, and food, and books) in exchange for performing on the school's basketball team. They are in the entertainment industry because the reason the athletics department exists is to entertain it's alumni and students (and serve as advertising for the school) in exchange for their entertainment dollar.

You should brush up on the National Labor Relations Act or the Fair Labor Standards Act. You definitely do not want them to be considered employees based on your position. It is why the NCAA will continue to lose these cases in court(s). Because if they are "employees" they could, by law, collectively bargain, curtail management practices, establish minimum wages, etc.

There is no winning side for the NCAA. They are either employees being denied their rights or non-employees being denied their ability to earn revenue on their own likeness, image, etc.

 

[Shelby65]

flu...again, for competitive balance. the deepest pockets at just a handful of schools would entice all the top players to those schools.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

So then why are we using amateur status rules as an excuse to prevent them from doing things anyone else would be allowed to do?

Nails it. And there’s nothing about this that hints that the next thing has to be a push for salaries and a huge ballooning effect. They can establish controls up front. It’s not even the one and done type kids leading the charge here. Look who is jumping on the band wagon. It’s mostly upper class kids who are in a position to choose between a mediocre salary abroad or going back to school. Seems like these are the type of kids who want to be able to return but also be able to earn some money along the way.

 

[sunsetregret]

So then why are we using amateur status rules as an excuse to prevent them from doing things anyone else would be allowed to do?

Because the scholarships wouldn't exist without the amateur status? The existence of a national regulation of the sport ensures (to what degree is debatable) a certain level of competitiveness. And that competitiveness is what makes the sport popular, earns money for the school (including serving as advertising), and ensures it is worth it to the schools to fund the athletic program and the scholarships. No amateur status means there is 25 schools offering scholarships to play professional "amateur" college basketball and all the rest of the schools go the way of the Ivys (nobody cares about the program, it earns no money for the school, and nobody gets a scholarship). Ask the point guard on Cornell's basketball team how much he's getting for use of his likeness.

You should brush up on the National Labor Relations Act or the Fair Labor Standards Act. There is no circumstance in the United States under which a college athlete would or could be considered an employee of the school. It is why the NCAA will continue to lose these cases in court(s).

Because if they are "employees" they could collectively bargain, curtail management practices, establish minimum wages, etc.

Take it up with the federal courts. I'm telling you how it is, not how it should be or how it might be in the future. These kids are working for the school. They provide a service (playing on the basketball team for others' entertainment) and in exchange are paid (with a free education, housing and food). Nobody is forcing them to play basketball against their will and nobody is forcing the school to give them a scholarship.

 

[RU to the Core]

So you’re admitting to players value being a lot more.

Anyway, there is already dominance in college athletics based on investment and that ALREADY includes booster money.

Yes. I’m saying it’s not bad to compensate them but there are going to be terrible consequences because of it. Image a team of all five stars. Even the bench players bc if they are all making a million a year do they care. Isn’t this what European soccer teams do. Just buy players to just sit on the bench so no one else can have them. Rutgers would become terrible.

 

[RutgHoops]

...



Take it up with the federal courts. I'm telling you how it is, not how it should be or how it might be in the future. These kids are working for the school. They provide a service (playing on the basketball team for others' entertainment) and in exchange are paid (with a free education, housing and food). Nobody is forcing them to play basketball against their will and nobody is forcing the school to give them a scholarship.

Even the NCAA has NEVER argued college athletes are employees. It is a losing proposition. As I wrote above, if the NCAA ever took the position that college athletes are employees of the colleges and universities they play for than college athletes would be getting paid the next day. It's the law. You cannot deny an employee/employees the right to collectively bargain (for example). Find a different position.

 

[sunsetregret]

Even the NCAA has NEVER argued college athletes are employees. It is a losing proposition. As I wrote above, if the NCAA ever took the position that college athletes are employees of the colleges and universities they play for than college athletes would be getting paid the next day. It's the law. You cannot deny an employee/employees the right to collectively bargain (for example). Find a different position.

I'm a lawyer, you don't have to explain employment law to me. Again, I'm not telling you how it should be, I'm telling you how it is. College basketball players are working a job. They are employees of the school. They receive compensation (education) for providing a service (playing basketball). The NCAA can call it whatever they want. The courts can call it whatever they want. The players can call it whatever they want. Everybody knows the same thing (except the millennial players because unfortunately and ironically, they are poorly informed on the subject) ... without special labor rules (amateur status), the whole enterprise falls apart and 1,000 kids lose their free education every year.

 

[mildone]

Yea except geo cause this bullshit is literally the only thing being talked about right now instead of our turnaround. Very selfish

Nonsense. You don't have to participate in this thread and don't have to read Geo's twitter. If you prefer to discuss something else, skip this thread and create one that focuses on what you want to discuss.

What Geo (and other NCAA athletes) are discussing is between him/them and the NCAA. The athletes are using social media to rally support for their cause. The schools and businesses that wish to use player names and likenesses have a vested interest. For everyone else, like you and me, it's just something to discuss or not discuss as we wish. But it's certainly none of our business due to our lack of vested interest. And nobody's holding a gun to our heads saying we have to give it any thought at all.

What seems selfish here is you injecting yourself in someone else's (NCAA athletes) business because you are inexplicably unable to avoid reading or hearing about it.

 

[cicero grimes]

This is really perplexing. If Geo believes he is advocating for equality by demanding the NIL rights; is he not in essence actually advocating for income inequality amongst NCAA athletes? Right now the 800 or so student athletes in the tourney are all in same financial boat. Granting NIL means the very top athletes will be making thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars during their college careers while their less athletically endowed brethren make peanuts. Geo just wants the NCAA to look more like modern America where the 1% control most of the wealth. After all he is not asking for equal distribution of NCAA revenue to athletes, just for the right of the individual athlete to profit from NIL.

This is sheer brilliance on Geo's part and we as capitalists should salute him. He has seized the social justice mantle to argue for unbridled capitalism.

 

[CHR2022]

Hes not. Hes grossly under informed on topics he speaks on.

Just say you disagree, attacking Geo Baker's intelligence because you disagree is spot on though.

Geo is a very intelligent student athlete who is informed on this topic.

 

[AshCatchEm]

Nonsense. You don't have to participate in this thread and don't have to read Geo's twitter. If you prefer to discuss something else, skip this thread and create one that focuses on what you want to discuss.

What Geo (and other NCAA athletes) are discussing is between him/them and the NCAA. The athletes are using social media to rally support for their cause. The schools and businesses that wish to use player names and likenesses have a vested interest. For everyone else, like you and me, it's just something to discuss or not discuss as we wish. But it's certainly none of our business due to our lack of vested interest. And nobody's holding a gun to our heads saying we have to give it any thought at all.

What seems selfish here is you injecting yourself in someone else's (NCAA athletes) business because you are inexplicably unable to avoid reading or hearing about it.

It's between him/them and the ncaa..publically broadcast to twitter. Right.

When you put it on twitter, it's everyone's business. Please don't pretend he wanted to handle this himself. He wanted a shitstorm, he got it, and now it gets to hover over the heads of our players while they try and focus.

 

[Caliknight]

Geo's likeness isn't worth the money he is being paid via his scholarship and support.

 

[blockm2]

in a world in which college athletes are getting paid above board, the Big Ten probably comes out farther ahead than any other conference. Kids are already getting paid by schools willing to break the rules. Make it honest and open and then the richer conferences (the Big Ten) will have a bigger advantage.

 

[mildone]

Companies own the intellectual property created by their employees. Employees are entitled to some proceeds thru company policies, but they do not own it.

This is the same principle. They are free to leave and do what The Professor does. On his own and without the university and NCAA constraints.

Employees are also always free to negotiate better, fairer terms, at any time before settling on the quitting option. If the employer refuses to negotiate in good faith, then the employees can organize and strike (an admittedly extreme, although not necessarily impossible, example in this particular case).

The point is that you're trying to cast the situation as an either-or situation. Either the players take what they get or they leave. But it's obviously not the case here. The players are seeking a middle-ground, between your either-or, in which they might be able to improve their situation.

I genuinely do not care how it shakes out. Because I have no skin in the game. But I think it's weird that so many people with so little vested interest are bothered by other people simply trying to improve their situation in life.

 

[Caliknight]

in a world in which college athletes are getting paid above board, the Big Ten probably comes out farther ahead than any other conference. Kids are already getting paid by schools willing to break the rules. Make it honest and open and then the richer conferences (the Big Ten) will have a bigger advantage.

The richest teams in each conference will have the real advantage. Anyone really think we can compete with Michigan and Ohio St. if they take the reins off of what some willing booster can pay for Johnny 5*s signature.

This is a no win scenario for Rutgers. Our alumni base is no where near engaged enough to compete in that environment.

 

[sunsetregret]

What seems selfish here is you injecting yourself in someone else's (NCAA athletes) business because you are inexplicably unable to avoid reading or hearing about it.

At the beginning of the thread we were told he published his opinion (on Twitter) now because he knew now was when people would care the most and he wanted the most people as possible to care about his issue. So now it's the fault of the people who read his published material (the publishing intentionally timed) for having an opinion about it?

Seems like someone is trying to have it both ways.

 

[bac2therac]

When not practicing or playing, teams are quarantined at their hotels, where they eat at least two meals per day. But Gavitt said teams have taken advantage of late-night food delivery options with NCAA partners. Wendy's brought a food truck to deliver more than 1,500 burgers and chicken sandwiches; Buffalo Wild Wings served 61 teams during the past three days and served more than 19,000 wings on its busiest night; and Pizza Hut has delivered 665 pizzas, 208 family-size pastas and 465 breadsticks.

 

[flyrradio]

Geo's likeness isn't worth the money he is being paid via his scholarship and support.

No one is debating comparison on worth. He doesn't even have the opportunity to explore it. That's the issue.

 

[bac2therac]

Nonsense. You don't have to participate in this thread and don't have to read Geo's twitter. If you prefer to discuss something else, skip this thread and create one that focuses on what you want to discuss.

What Geo (and other NCAA athletes) are discussing is between him/them and the NCAA. The athletes are using social media to rally support for their cause. The schools and businesses that wish to use player names and likenesses have a vested interest. For everyone else, like you and me, it's just something to discuss or not discuss as we wish. But it's certainly none of our business due to our lack of vested interest. And nobody's holding a gun to our heads saying we have to give it any thought at all.

What seems selfish here is you injecting yourself in someone else's (NCAA athletes) business because you are inexplicably unable to avoid reading or hearing about it.

lol

 

[RutgHoops]

I'm a lawyer, you don't have to explain employment law to me. Again, I'm not telling you how it should be, I'm telling you how it is. College basketball players are working a job. They are employees of the school. They receive compensation (education) for providing a service (playing basketball). The NCAA can call it whatever they want. The courts can call it whatever they want. The players can call it whatever they want. Everybody knows the same thing (except the millennial players because unfortunately and ironically, they are poorly informed on the subject) ... without special labor rules (amateur status), the whole enterprise falls apart and 1,000 kids lose their free education every year.

Should every industry have a cap on employee compensation or just college athletics? I am going to assume if a "Lawyer Regulatory Body" were established that capped lawyer compensation you would have a pretty big issue with it.

A truism in economics is that anywhere an inefficient market exists, a black market will appear. Marijuana, prostitution, knock off designer clothes, ticket scalping just to cite a few examples. The reason college athletes get paid illegally is because the current system is inefficient in a free market economy. These athletes are worth more than a college scholarship so boosters, shoe companies, etc pay them illegally. If a lawyer salary were capped at say $200k there is no doubt lawyers worth more than that would be getting illegal payments from clients. The fact there are lots of kids who play high level college athletics who get paid illegally proves, in my opinion as an economist, that the current system is suboptimal.

 

[sunsetregret]

The fact there are lots of kids who play high level college athletics who get paid illegally proves, in my opinion as an economist, that the current system is suboptimal.

We already have the alternative ... it's called the NBA. Every single current college basketball player could have applied for the NBA draft last year and took their chances in professional basketball. Instead, they elected to take the deal offered by their university (free education, housing and food in exchange for performing on the basketball team and following NCAA rules). College basketball isn't an industry. Professional basketball is an industry, of which NCAA college basketball is a subset.

 

[mildone]

It's because if there was ever going to be a time where the entire Rutgers Basketball fanbase was unified and supportive, it was now ... and he (and RHJ) elected to use this period of unique unity and be divisive by pushing one side of a divisive issue. Additionally, it solidifies the perception of some in the fanbase (rightly or wrongly) that these kids are not 100% focused on winning basketball games.

They took a moment that will come around every 30 years or so and pissed it away to push politics.

If Geo tweets out that McDonald's Big Macs are way better than Burger King's Whoppers, that's also a divisive thing to do. People will surely have various opinions about it. Should people who prefer the Whopper be offended and refuse to support the team? If they do, would you not think they were being silly?

There's no good reason for people who have various opinions about this issue to stop supporting the team. If they do stop their support, then that's not the fault of the players. It's the fault of those folks who are way too easily offended by stuff that isn't any of their business.

 

[sunsetregret]

There's no good reason for people who have various opinions about this issue to stop supporting the team.

Who stopped supporting the team?

It's lessened my enjoyment of the team, but that is primarily because I believe several of these kids aren't 100% invested in winning. I've also had my enjoyment of the team lessened because I feel like several of the players went from being enthusiastic joyful overachievers to a year later being going-through-the-motions players playing basketball as a chore - either because they are sulking about their role (Geo), or showing poor effort (RHJ).

But I was supporting the team long before these kids got here and I'll be doing so long after they are gone. I'm sure that pretty much applies to anyone who has ever sat in the stands at the RAC. The kids may be different but the building and the jerseys still remain the same.

 

[Caliknight]

No one is debating comparison on worth. He doesn't even have the opportunity to explore it. That's the issue.

Of course worth is part of any discussion that involves anyone trying to get higher compensation. That's the real world.

 

[mildone]

It's between him/them and the ncaa..publically broadcast to twitter. Right.

When you put it on twitter, it's everyone's business. Please don't pretend he wanted to handle this himself. He wanted a shitstorm, he got it, and now it gets to hover over the heads of our players while they try and focus.

There's nothing wrong with trying to rally support for a cause. If you don't like the cause, don't support it. Easy.

If you're bothered or offended by all this, ignore it. The world doesn't exist to conform to that which doesn't offend AshCatchEm.

And you still haven't explained how it is that you are entirely incapable of ignoring the entire situation. Do you exist in some Clockwork Orange universe in which your eyelids are taped open and Geo's twitter feed is streamed, 24/7, on a giant monitor in front of you?

 

[mildone]

At the beginning of the thread we were told he published his opinion (on Twitter) now because he knew now was when people would care the most and he wanted the most people as possible to care about his issue. So now it's the fault of the people who read his published material (the publishing intentionally timed) for having an opinion about it?

Seems like someone is trying to have it both ways.

People are free to have whatever opinion they wish. Nobody said otherwise.

But trying to insinuate that Geo's to blame for other people's opinions about stuff in which they have no vested interest is nuts. It's none of our business. If we choose to make it our business, that's our choice - not his. We are entirely free to look away and not think about it at all.

 

[mildone]

Who stopped supporting the team?

Read the past couple pages to get the context you're missing.

 

[RutgHoops]

We already have the alternative ... it's called the NBA. Every single current college basketball player could have applied for the NBA draft last year and took their chances in professional basketball. Instead, they elected to take the deal offered by their university (free education, housing and food in exchange for performing on the basketball team and following NCAA rules). College basketball isn't an industry. Professional basketball is an industry, of which NCAA college basketball is a subset.

It appears the Courts have started to disagree with your position. Either the NCAA fixes it or the courts will (likely) go far beyond what the NCAA, possibly the most inept governing body in the country, could (relatively) easily do on their own. College athletes from revenue producing sports are worth and therefore entitled to more than a college scholarship. Court after court has begun to rule as such and the Supreme Court seems likely to agree with these lower courts.

What nobody should want is a complete free market. There should be, to use my example above, a collectively bargained solution that athletes and colleges/universities agree to. Keep going down the current road and the fallout problem will be what many have cited in this thread: a system like MLB with haves and have nots. Anyone who is a fan of Rutgers should want a solution that doesn't turn the ability to procure talent in to a form of free agency. Status quo is dying. Fighting to keep it is folly.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

They rightly don't give a **** what you think and why should they?

Wow man. Wow. That's what you think? You mean on the subject of NIL or in general as fan

 

[flyrradio]

Of course worth is part of any discussion that involves anyone trying to get higher compensation. That's the real world.

Of course it's part of any discussion, but how can we have that discussion if you're telling someone they can't find that out for themselves, since an organization is restricting it? None of them have the opportunity to see how much they could earn for endorsing a product or participating in an autograph show.

When they have that ability, then that discussion could take place. Yes that's a bridge that will be crossed, but we're not at even at the construction phase of the bridge, and that's the shame.

 

[sunsetregret]

It appears the Courts have started to disagree with your position. Either the NCAA fixes it or the courts will (likely) go far beyond what the NCAA, possibly the most inept governing body in the country, could (relatively) easily do on their own. College athletes from revenue producing sports are entitled to more than a college scholarship. Court after court has begun to rule as such and the Supreme Court seems likely to agree with these lower courts.

What nobody should want is a complete free market. There should be, to use my example above, a collectively bargained solution that athletes and colleges/universities agree to. Keep going down the current road and the fallout problem will be what many have cited in this thread: a system like MLB with haves and have nots. Anyone who is a fan of Rutgers should want a solution that doesn't turn the ability to procure talent in to a form of free agency. Status quo is dying. Fighting to keep it is folly.

Well, the courts could certainly do what they did to Major League Baseball with the Curt Flood decision ... which is to say wreck the competitive balance of the sport and make the sport less popular than it normally would be had it functioned under the rules it had set. It could definitely happen; courts **** up industries all the time through poorly thought out decisions and a general sense of "I know better because I have a robe on." But that's not because there is anything wrong with the industry or the operating model of NCAA basketball. It's because judges are often stupid and ideological.

If you're asking me to defer to the infinite wisdom of the courts? Sorry, no.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Please don't call yourself a Rutgers supporter if you're not truly supporting Rutgers and that includes supporting the development both on and off the court of these athletes.

oh come on man with that stuff lol.

 

[flyrradio]

oh come on man with that stuff lol.

Come on with what stuff? You're trying to put professional and college sports on the same wave length, which they're not.

 

[Knightmoves]

No one is debating comparison on worth. He doesn't even have the opportunity to explore it. That's the issue.

How many Geo jerseys without Rutgers printed on them do expect to purchase in the next year?

 

[RutgHoops]

If you're asking me to defer to the infinite wisdom of the courts? Sorry, no.

That appears to be the position of the NCAA as well. My opinion is that position wont work out the way you/the NCAA would like it to.

 

[RutgHoops]

How many Geo jerseys without Rutgers printed on them do expect to purchase in the next year?

More than zero. How many Cade Cunningham jerseys without Oklahoma State would sell? How many Zion Williamson jerseys without Duke? How many autographs could Geo sell? How many autographs could Brian Leonard have sold? How many NCAA Basketball video games get sold with no player names or likenesses?

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Come on with what stuff? You're trying to put professional and college sports on the same wave length, which they're not.

saying you have to agree with and support everything a player for or the school does or you're not a fan or legit supporter. That part.
(I did like your other comment though :)