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If coaching were not a factor, where does Rutgers rank in the Big Ten?

Maybe, just maybe, this all needs to be pinned on Ace and Dylan.

Sorry ace and Dylan are the ones tgat got beat off the dribble with ease against most opponents. Dylan is the one who didnt have the toughness to get through screens. Ace is the one who pkays defense flat footed most posssessions and rourinely lost track of his man.

Pike can only do so much.

Now do JWill (team captain),Davis (returning wing defender) and Derkack (conference defensive player of the year).
They played the 3rd, 4th and 6th most minutes this year.

The problem wasn't HC Pike "leaning into offense".

It was thinking he could rely on JWill, Davis and Derkack to provide a modicum of defense.
They had 1 job and couldn't handle it.

At least Ace and Dylan scored more often than not.
 
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Now do JWill (team captain),Davis (returning wing defender) and Derkack (conference defensive player of the year).
They played the 3rd, 4th and 6th most minutes this year.

The problem wasn't HC Pike "leaning into offense".

It was thinking he could rely on JWill, Davis and Derkack to provide a modicum of defense.
They had 1 job and couldn't handle it.

At least Ace and Dylan scored more often than not.
Not at all.
 
Not at all.

How so?

Ace and Dylan isn't "leaning into offense".
Literally every HC in the country takes them.

Our "lean into offense" transfers (Martini, Acuff and Hayes) played among the least minutes on the team.

Are you saying we needed better defenders instead of JWill and Davis and Derkack?
 
Now do JWill (team captain),Davis (returning wing defender) and Derkack (conference defensive player of the year).
They played the 3rd, 4th and 6th most minutes this year.

The problem wasn't HC Pike "leaning into offense".

It was thinking he could rely on JWill, Davis and Derkack to provide a modicum of defense.
They had 1 job and couldn't handle it.

At least Ace and Dylan scored more often than not.

As Green said - no.

How so?

Ace and Dylan isn't "leaning into offense".
Literally every HC in the country takes them.

Our "lean into offense" transfers (Martini, Acuff and Hayes) played among the least minutes on the team.

Are you saying we needed better defenders instead of JWill and Davis and Derkack?

Because as bad as the perimeter D seems, it would’ve been good enough to win with what we have on offense provided we could’ve been solid (or heck - even slightly below average) when it came to defending the interior. We simply have no answer down low.

For a major conference team, our interior D grades out amongst the worst I’ve ever seen. Even when we are packing the paint deliberately, it’s still bad. The poor perimeter D is more a symptom of that than anything else. We could be good on D with J Will and Davis in the mix playing with better defenders. If Lathan and Grant soak up 25+ minutes at the 4-5 next year the D will not improve much regardless of who we put at guard.
 
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Maybe, just maybe, this all needs to be pinned on Ace and Dylan.

Sorry ace and Dylan are the ones tgat got beat off the dribble with ease against most opponents. Dylan is the one who didnt have the toughness to get through screens. Ace is the one who pkays defense flat footed most posssessions and rourinely lost track of his man.

Pike can only do so much.
of course the players deserve some blame, but I don’t think Ace and Dylan are the main culprits at all. we would have had less than 10 wins if they weren’t on this team.

I know this is just a single example but I keep thinking back to the Princeton game and how Pike refused to stop switching on defense as Xavian Lee beat Zach Martini off the dribble on about 5 consecutive possessions. the coaching has been abysmal this year.
 
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of course the players deserve some blame, but I don’t think Ace and Dylan are the main culprits at all. we would have had less than 10 wins if they weren’t on this team.

I know this is just a single example but I keep thinking back to the Princeton game and how Pike refused to stop switching on defense as Xavian Lee beat Zach Martini off the dribble on about 5 consecutive possessions. the coaching has been abysmal this year.
No way we will EVER know.

Without Ace and Dylan i think we win more games.

The team was built with them as the core. They were definitely the core on both ends. What if Ace and Dylan werent here and the PG and SF and a ton of shots were open to a potential upperclassmen transfer? How would have Pike been able to fill those spots? What type of defense could have been played.

What players took us off their potential transfer destination list because they didnt want to be 3rd fiddle to 2 18 years olds. How many watched Ace AAU and HS highlights and said they wanted no piece of playing with that (really bad shot selection).
 
of course the players deserve some blame, but I don’t think Ace and Dylan are the main culprits at all. we would have had less than 10 wins if they weren’t on this team.

I know this is just a single example but I keep thinking back to the Princeton game and how Pike refused to stop switching on defense as Xavian Lee beat Zach Martini off the dribble on about 5 consecutive possessions. the coaching has been abysmal this year.
Who and how would you want him guarded?

Ace and Dylan cant. Lathan is bad at hedging screens. Our zone defense has been horrific. The 2 Purdue games and the Princeton game really exposed us in a terrible way of what we are.

This is why we are 15-16. Sorry it is Ace and Dylan’s fault we cant defend anyone. Dylan looked foolish trying to fight thru screens and stay in front of Braden Smith
 
Thi
of course the players deserve some blame, but I don’t think Ace and Dylan are the main culprits at all. we would have had less than 10 wins if they weren’t on this team.

I know this is just a single example but I keep thinking back to the Princeton game and how Pike refused to stop switching on defense as Xavian Lee beat Zach Martini off the dribble on about 5 consecutive possessions. the coaching has been abysmal this year.
This!

It’s X and O’s and Jwill, Dercack, and JMike are NOT power 4 players! Possibly Jwill in a bench role 12 mins max.

The other 2 need to transfer down
 
Who and how would you want him guarded?

Ace and Dylan cant. Lathan is bad at hedging screens. Our zone defense has been horrific. The 2 Purdue games and the Princeton game really exposed us in a terrible way of what we are.

This is why we are 15-16. Sorry it is Ace and Dylan’s fault we cant defend anyone. Dylan looked foolish trying to fight thru screens and stay in front of Braden Smith
One get Martini out of the game they were isolating him specifically. That move alone makes Princeton reset . Pike called time out after 4 baskets in a row. Changed Nothing and Princeton got 2 more buckets on the same play. That’s the game right there.

Next blitz the pick and roll and double hard on the ball and force it out of his hands.

Pike lost the game and the team and the season.
 
As Green said - no.



Because as bad as the perimeter D seems, it would’ve been good enough to win with what we have on offense provided we could’ve been solid (or heck - even slightly below average) when it came to defending the interior. We simply have no answer down low.

For a major conference team, our interior D grades out amongst the worst I’ve ever seen. Even when we are packing the paint deliberately, it’s still bad. The poor perimeter D is more a symptom of that than anything else. We could be good on D with J Will and Davis in the mix playing with better defenders. If Lathan and Grant soak up 25+ minutes at the 4-5 next year the D will not improve much regardless of who we put at guard.

That kind of proves my point.
We didn't "lean into offense".
We still played JWill, Davis and Derkack and had a horrific defense.

If the defense was going to be bad regardless, then leaning into offense would have been to actually lean in and get offensive replacements for them.

HC Pike tried to do both and did neither.
Bringing in offensive transfer to be the
7th 8th and 9th guys on the bench isn’t “leaning into offense”.

Who and how would you want him guarded?

Ace and Dylan cant. Lathan is bad at hedging screens. Our zone defense has been horrific. The 2 Purdue games and the Princeton game really exposed us in a terrible way of what we are.

This is why we are 15-16. Sorry it is Ace and Dylan’s fault we cant defend anyone. Dylan looked foolish trying to fight thru screens and stay in front of Braden Smith

Aren’t JWill, Davis and Derkack supposed to be our top defenders?
Funny you left them out of the options to defend Lee and Smith.
 
It must be nice to a “top defenders” and your allowed to just let guys fly by you.

I could be a “top defender” if the system is “don’t worry about letting guys drive past you. It’s the fault of the center for not stopping them.”

Not responsible for offense or defense is a pretty good gig for a Big Ten starter or significant rotation player.
 
Well pike failed with $..small sample size but
You can't say he has money...if he has money Cliff would have stayed maybe even mag and he could gotten Matt alocco to commit when he visited with martini... fanatics had money for Dylan and Ace specifically because of their unique status as potential top 5 picks. I feel the inability to build a roster when you have these two handed to you shows the lack of support. I'm interested to see how the program operates moving forward. Will he be able to go back to his old ways of developing under recruited players? If he does will he be able to keep them? Will he be able to bring in actual big ten caliber transfers? Hard to see anything other than players staying for the culture if they couldn't put some money together this year of all years.....

Sidenote you said there were 3 million dollar players? You mean ace and Dylan combined or was there a third player on the roster getting a million dollars? Lol if so who was that?
 
You can't say he has money...if he has money Cliff would have stayed maybe even mag and he could gotten Matt alocco to commit when he visited with martini... fanatics had money for Dylan and Ace specifically because of their unique status as potential top 5 picks. I feel the inability to build a roster when you have these two handed to you shows the lack of support. I'm interested to see how the program operates moving forward. Will he be able to go back to his old ways of developing under recruited players? If he does will he be able to keep them? Will he be able to bring in actual big ten caliber transfers? Hard to see anything other than players staying for the culture if they couldn't put some money together this year of all years.....

Sidenote you said there were 3 million dollar players? You mean ace and Dylan combined or was there a third player on the roster getting a million dollars? Lol if so who was that?
2 of them combined for 3 million....you cant say because RU didnt pay them you are not going to include it in how much players were being paid...its still 3 million more than most schools.

also plenty of schools didnt pay out a million...look at wisconsin who lost hepburn,,tomje cost far far less and was a wise pickup
 
That kind of proves my point.
We didn't "lean into offense".
We still played JWill, Davis and Derkack and had a horrific defense.

If the defense was going to be bad regardless, then leaning into offense would have been to actually lean in and get offensive replacements for them.

HC Pike tried to do both and did neither.
Bringing in offensive transfer to be the
7th 8th and 9th guys on the bench isn’t “leaning into offense”.



Aren’t JWill, Davis and Derkack supposed to be our top defenders?
Funny you left them out of the options to defend Lee and Smith.

No I didn’t. I’m saying the D would’ve been fine if we had Cliff or someone close to as good as him on D in the front court. Cliff isn’t a one in a million. He’s currently not even a starter. I don’t think having a better defending backcourt would’ve made that much of a difference. Some of you are really understating how bad we are at post D. It seems like it’s basically an automatic basket when a guy breaks one defender. Thats nuts. And the rate of rebounds we give up is also historically bad. That combo together is the main problem. GG was worse at perimeter D than all the players you mention. Our D was still good overall last year.
 
Without Ace and Dylan i think we win more games.
unless you’re assuming that we filled their spots instead with two or three VERY high impact transfers, this is an insane take.

in a vacuum, if you remove Ace and Dylan from this roster and don’t add anyone else, we would not even have gotten to 10 wins this past year.

also, while Ace and Dylan aren’t great defenders, they are mostly ok at it and I think the benefit of their 20-25ppg apiece far outweighs their occasional defensive lapses. we knew they wouldn’t be defensive stalwarts coming in as freshmen. it was up to Pike to mask that deficiency.
 
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unless you’re assuming that we filled their spots instead with two or three VERY high impact transfers, this is an insane take.

in a vacuum, if you remove Ace and Dylan from this roster and don’t add anyone else, we would not even have gotten to 10 wins this past year.

also, while Ace and Dylan aren’t great defenders, they are mostly ok at it and I think the benefit of their 20-25ppg apiece far outweighs their occasional defensive lapses. we knew they wouldn’t be defensive stalwarts coming in as freshmen. it was up to Pike to mask that deficiency.
Idk who would have rebounded. People didn't seem to notice that the team couldn't rebound earlier in the year. The coaches had to go to Ace and get him to take on more responsibility in the paint. Unless you replace ace with a big man, team would be terrible..but if you had a big man that would've unlocked Indiana Ace more often so idk why you wouldn't just bring in a veteran big instead of telling Dylan and Ace that you don't have a spot for them. Smh
 
That kind of proves my point.
We didn't "lean into offense".
We still played JWill, Davis and Derkack and had a horrific defense.

If the defense was going to be bad regardless, then leaning into offense would have been to actually lean in and get offensive replacements for them.

HC Pike tried to do both and did neither.
Bringing in offensive transfer to be the
7th 8th and 9th guys on the bench isn’t “leaning into offense”.



Aren’t JWill, Davis and Derkack supposed to be our top defenders?
Funny you left them out of the options to defend Lee and Smith.
I am not the coach!

Derkack has been a tran wreck on D
JaMike has been inconsistent
JWill has been Ok
 
Who and how would you want him guarded?

Ace and Dylan cant. Lathan is bad at hedging screens. Our zone defense has been horrific. The 2 Purdue games and the Princeton game really exposed us in a terrible way of what we are.

This is why we are 15-16. Sorry it is Ace and Dylan’s fault we cant defend anyone. Dylan looked foolish trying to fight thru screens and stay in front of Braden Smith

If you took Ace off this team and didn’t replace him, the rebounding would be historically bad. Who would’ve replaced his 7+ boards a game. I don’t think our post D would be better without him. I think we’d be a lot worse actually.
 
unless you’re assuming that we filled their spots instead with two or three VERY high impact transfers, this is an insane take.

in a vacuum, if you remove Ace and Dylan from this roster and don’t add anyone else, we would not even have gotten to 10 wins this past year.

also, while Ace and Dylan aren’t great defenders, they are mostly ok at it and I think the benefit of their 20-25ppg apiece far outweighs their occasional defensive lapses. we knew they wouldn’t be defensive stalwarts coming in as freshmen. it was up to Pike to mask that deficiency.
That is not a Dyson vacuum!

We would have replaced Ace and Dylan with someone.
 
If you took Ace off this team and didn’t replace him, the rebounding would be historically bad. Who would’ve replaced his 7+ boards a game. I don’t think our post D would be better without him. I think we’d be a lot worse actually.
With Ace’s spot free I would think you would get a high profile transfer that would be a 4th or 5th year guy. Who knows what money we would have had, but we would have had a spot on a B1G needing scoring with offensive opportunities available.

Rutgers was looking for a player to be a 15-18% usage guy since we had Ace and Dylan. Someone like Acuff took the bait, but you were going to have a tough time finding anyone who was going to play in this environment. Lets be homest anyone who turned down RU made the right move.

A guy like Wolf on Michigan might consider RU without Ace here. $? No idea
 
I am not the coach!

Derkack has been a tran wreck on D
JaMike has been inconsistent
JWill has been Ok

Paul’s D would’ve looked a lot worse with the front court we have now. In general, it’s easier to compensate for weaker perimeter defenders. Thats when decent big men cost a premium in the portal.
 
With Ace’s spot free I would think you would get a high profile transfer that would be a 4th or 5th year guy. Who knows what money we would have had, but we would have had a spot on a B1G needing scoring with offensive opportunities available.

No not necessarily. I think your assuming you’d get a Caleb / Mag type defender. In reality, what you’d probably end up with is a Hyatt type defender who as a 5th year senior I noted was better than Lathan and Grant as frosh. But I don’t think better than Ace. Ace makes frosh mistakes but he also does some good things and would’ve been awesome on D alongside Cliff.

if you swapped Ace and Hyatt on the court we win less games. Imagine a frontcourt of Hyatt, Dylan Grant and Lathan. I fear that is what could be in our future next year. I hope Pike doesn’t target a Hyatt type from the portal to appease everyone (meaning someone who could seemingly play multiple positions)
 
With Ace’s spot free I would think you would get a high profile transfer that would be a 4th or 5th year guy. Who knows what money we would have had, but we would have had a spot on a B1G needing scoring with offensive opportunities available.

Rutgers was looking for a player to be a 15-18% usage guy since we had Ace and Dylan. Someone like Acuff took the bait, but you were going to have a tough time finding anyone who was going to play in this environment. Lets be homest anyone who turned down RU made the right move.

A guy like Wolf on Michigan might consider RU without Ace here. $? No idea
Taking ace and Dylan off the team would not free up money to spend on other players. What I don't think people are understanding is that money was specifically for Ace and Dylan. Fanatics would not pay a veteran center instead of ace. So if you got a center to come here it would be because he wanted to go to Rutgers and at that point he can play WITH Ace and Dylan. Ace not having in the paint responsibilities would actually make him better and provide another lob threat for Dylan to pick and roll with. Bringing in ace and Dylan did not take away any money Rutgers could have used for other players because being a top 5 pick is rare thing..
 
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With Ace’s spot free I would think you would get a high profile transfer that would be a 4th or 5th year guy. Who knows what money we would have had, but we would have had a spot on a B1G needing scoring with offensive opportunities available.

Rutgers was looking for a player to be a 15-18% usage guy since we had Ace and Dylan. Someone like Acuff took the bait, but you were going to have a tough time finding anyone who was going to play in this environment. Lets be homest anyone who turned down RU made the right move.

A guy like Wolf on Michigan might consider RU without Ace here. $? No idea

This year we'll have multiple spots needing scoring with offensive opportunities available.
Will be interesting who we attract.

Also, you appear to be saying you wanted a more selfish player only concerned with being able to get their own stats.
Interesting type of player to advocate for.
 
Taking ace and Dylan off the team would not free up money to spend on other players. What I don't think people are understanding is that money was specifically for Ace and Dylan. Fanatics would not pay a veteran center instead of ace. So if you got a center to come here it would be because he wanted to go to Rutgers and at that point he can play WITH Ace and Dylan. Ace not having in the paint responsibilities would actually make him better and provide another lob threat for Dylan to pick and roll with. Bringing in ace and Dylan did not take away any money Rutgers could have used for other players because being a top 5 pick is rare thing..
It would have freed a spot for a wing looking for 21-25% usage and a combo guard who probably had a chance to be the leading scorer.
 
This year we'll have multiple spots needing scoring with offensive opportunities available.
Will be interesting who we attract.

Also, you appear to be saying you wanted a more selfish player only concerned with being able to get their own stats.
Interesting type of player to advocate for.
stop it.....

bottom line anyone coming here knew there was going to be little opportunity to use their skills on offense. Ace and Dylan have dominated (thankfully) the basketball as expected.

to your point it will be interesting to see how Pikiell fills this roster. He will have "usage" opportunities. Don't think he will have as much money as we would like.

I also think we are going to a massive roster turnover
 
It would have freed a spot for a wing looking for 21-25% usage and a combo guard who probably had a chance to be the leading scorer.
Ok I see what you're saying but they had that same opportunity the year before and they brought in Noah Fernandes. If you're saying something that has never happened before like Rutgers bringing in an experienced big ten level big man and combo guard from the portal. Yes having two veteran leaders is better than having two freshmen leaders. But Rutgers has not been a good basketball team for some time now. Idk how or why you wouldn't bring in the two most talented players in program history. Then when you strike out like they struck out on previous years you go into the season with what? Cliff still would've left, mag still would've left. You can't play the what if game. I do it all the time lol like what if they paid Cliff and mag and brought in Matt alocco to go with this roster. In my head that team would be no. 1 in the nation. Id take my hypothetical team over your hypothetical team..
 
stop it.....

bottom line anyone coming here knew there was going to be little opportunity to use their skills on offense. Ace and Dylan have dominated (thankfully) the basketball as expected.

to your point it will be interesting to see how Pikiell fills this roster. He will have "usage" opportunities. Don't think he will have as much money as we would like.

I also think we are going to a massive roster turnover

If you replace this mythical 2nd offensive option (instead of Ace) - you still end up with JWill and Acuff as your 3rd options.

Ace was 7th in the Big Ten at 17.6ppg.
This "other guy" perfectly replaces Ace and scores 17.6ppg.

What exactly is different?
You are just swapping out one for another.

Do you expect this "transfer" to score more?
 
If you replace this mythical 2nd offensive option (instead of Ace) - you still end up with JWill and Acuff as your 3rd options.

Ace was 7th in the Big Ten at 17.6ppg.
This "other guy" perfectly replaces Ace and scores 17.6ppg.

What exactly is different?
You are just swapping out one for another.

Do you expect this "transfer" to score more?
maybe win more 50/50 balls
maybe fight thru screens
maybe take a little more effort staying in front of their man
maybe be a little more focused playing defense off the ball
 
It would have freed a spot for a wing looking for 21-25% usage and a combo guard who probably had a chance to be the leading scorer.
I’m not sure why you assume we’d have picked up another Caleb vs a Hyatt. Unfortunately - I’m starting to wonder if it’s possible that the hustle type defensive kids are less drawn to enter the portal on average than the offensive minded kids. Just a theory - nothing concrete to support it really.

We certainly don’t win more though adding a forward like Hyatt at the 4 to replace Ace. And Hyatt did get a lot better on D his last year. He still wasn’t a plus defender though and you lose a lot on offense comparatively.
 
I’m not sure why you assume we’d have picked up another Caleb vs a Hyatt. Unfortunately - I’m starting to wonder if it’s possible that the hustle type defensive kids are less drawn to enter the portal on average than the offensive minded kids. Just a theory - nothing concrete to support it really.

We certainly don’t win more though adding a forward like Hyatt at the 4 to replace Ace. And Hyatt did get a lot better on D his last year. He still wasn’t a plus defender though and you lose a lot on offense comparatively.
I am not so sure of that. We both are crystal clear and on the same page with what we thought of Hyatt.

Do you think Hyatt would have shot better than 6-36 from 3 over the 2nd half of the B1G schedule?
Would Hyatt have been 62 out of 72 in offensive rating over the 2nd half of the B1G season for players over 50% of minutes
Hyatt would have played better defense and be more reliable.

Ace was downright awful the last 10 games of the year.

 
I am not so sure of that. We both are crystal clear and on the same page with what we thought of Hyatt.

Do you think Hyatt would have shot better than 6-36 from 3 over the 2nd half of the B1G schedule?
Would Hyatt have been 62 out of 72 in offensive rating over the 2nd half of the B1G season for players over 50% of minutes
Hyatt would have played better defense and be more reliable.

Ace was downright awful the last 10 games of the year.


Yeah Hyatt would’ve played better position / team defense. Ace is the closest thing we have to rim protection though so even at his worst I think adding a Hyatt would make an already bad defense worse on a whole depending on the opponent. Imagine a front court rotation of primarily Hyatt, Lathan and Grant. Ace also grabs +7 boards a game. Nobody else even grabs close to that.

The latter is what I fear though for next year. If Pike’s plan A strategy is to keep Lathan and Dylan Grant happy, a player (or multiple players) like Hyatt who can swing to multiple positions will be appealing as it won’t pose a direct threat to anyone’s PT. Kind of like Martini was. I do strongly believe that we won’t field a competitive team next season unless a bare minimum of 30 out of 40 regulation minutes at either the 4 or 5 are absorbed by at least one plus defender.

This year - we have a combo of two net negative or neutral at best (perhaps Ace who does good things and bad) defenders at all times at the 4 and 5. To me, the only returning frontcourt player who I see a possible one year development path to move to the plus side is Bryce Dortch. He appears to be extremely limited on the offensive end though and isn’t strong with the ball. Folks don’t seem to understand that frontcourt players very rarely go from significantly below average to the plus side on D in one off season.
 
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hyatt and ace are similar defensive rebounders.

Ace dreb% is a tick higher, but he didnt have to compete with Cliff for rebounds
 
I am not so sure of that. We both are crystal clear and on the same page with what we thought of Hyatt.

Do you think Hyatt would have shot better than 6-36 from 3 over the 2nd half of the B1G schedule?
Would Hyatt have been 62 out of 72 in offensive rating over the 2nd half of the B1G season for players over 50% of minutes
Hyatt would have played better defense and be more reliable.

Ace was downright awful the last 10 games of the year.


Regarding Hyatt and the 3s - I’m pretty sure our board quant expert would explain to you that you can’t cherry pick the block of 10 consecutive games you want to support your narrative. Ace was 7 of 36 though during that time

From 1/21 to 3/3 (12 game stretch of BIG games last season) Hyatt went 9 of 45 (similar percentage). I’m not sure why it being a “consecutive” stretch matters anyway. If you take out the Wisconsin and NW games - there were 10 games during that time frame where Hyatt actually went a shocking 4 for 36. So the answer to your question is - sure, 7 of 36 could easily happen with Hyatt.
 
Hyatt did at least 2 out of the 3 years get booted out or see role reduced of the rotation because he stopped making 3s.

Ace’s stretch if entire 2nd half the B1G season. I think that can escape the cherry picking arguement.

Guy has gone to the line only 24 times in those 10 games despite having the ball in his hands so much.
 
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Hyatt did at least 2 out of the 3 years get booted out or see role reduced of the rotation because he stopped making 3s.

Ace’s stretch if entire 2nd half the B1G season. I think that can escape the cherry picking arguement.

Guy has gone to the line only 24 times in those 10 games despite having the ball in his hands so much.

Why? I gave you a stretch of 12 games almost over the entire second half of the regular 2024 conference season excluding the last 2 games which were blow out losses anyway. I’m not sure why it’s different. Over 12 straight games (we had thrown in the towel by those last 2 games anyway), Hyatt shot 20%. Ace was 19.4% from 3.
 
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