Is this a Major at Rutgers?

[Underdogs88]

Not sure somebody that has to manage under a budget cap would agree with you.

No Superintendent worth their salt is going to tell a Supervisor they are unable to hire the more qualified candidate because they are going to cost 3k more. Plus, no good Supervisor is going to work in a district where they can't make their own hiring decisions. There are other places in a budget to make a cut. Plus, the school is probably already saving money on the new hire since the position likely opened up because an experienced teacher retired.

 

[beaced]

That's right. I was a Crimson Knight before I was a Scarlet Knight. The superintendent when they started in 1959 was an RU guy. And that is where the mascot/nickname came from. He hired a RU guy for the original principal, who hired a bunch of RU people. There were still some left when I went through.

That is the way it should be.This is New Jersey and RUTGERS IS the State U.[thumb2]

 

[SkilletHead2]

I taught in the Graduate School of Education for 29 years, also serving as Chair of the Ed Psych Dept., and as Associate Dean of the school.

There never was an Undergraduate School of Education at Rutgers; there were undergraduate programs at Rutgers College, Douglass, Livingston, and Cook. When the University merged all departments decades ago, these programs were brought into the Graduate School of Education. At the time, we considered changing the name of the school, but chose not to. (I moved that we change the name to the "Harvard School of Education" but didn't get any votes --true story.)

Part of the reason for changes in the programs at Rutgers are related to requirements for certification from the State Board of Education, and another part has to do with what the leading colleges of education were doing around the country. Rutgers GSE has consistently been one of the top 50 colleges of education, and we associate with colleagues in that group. Moving to a BA/MEd program was motivated in part by a change in requirements from the State DoE. They said that no more than 30 hours of coursework (about 10 courses) could be in education. Since student teaching was part of this, it was felt that this wasn't nearly enough to properly train teachers. So we built 30 into the undergraduate level, and added a graduate year with a masters degree.

All new teachers in NJ get a kind of temporary certificate which enables them to teach for two years under close supervision. If they are successful, they get more permanent certification. (I should put a caveat here; I haven't been at Rutgers for ten years. Some things might have changed.)

Rutgers places students into the "student teaching" process, but does not place or guarantee a job after graduation. Don't know of any school of ed that does. We don't hire for school districts. However, our grads are very successful at finding jobs.

Unlike places like CNJ, Montclair, Rowan, Kean, etc., the GSE doesn't see initial teacher preparation (teacher training) as its primary mission. We focus as much (probably more) on masters and doctoral level education. And research. Although CNJ and MSU are excellent places for becoming a teacher, the research activity of their faculty doesn't compare to Rutgers. Rutgers has leading international scholars in a number of areas. This is an incredible change from when I was first hired. It took a long time and a lot of work to get there, but it is a well-respected unit for research quality.

Also a fair number of RU sports fans. None as big as me, but pretty good!

 

[SkilletHead2]

One other thing. Stanford and Virginia, and many top schools of education, do not offer an undergraduate major in education, nor do they recommend people for certification without a masters degree.

The argument here (and at Rutgers) is that people who want to become teachers should start with a solid grounding in sciences or humanities. We want people to get a bachelors degree in one of those areas, blending some education courses in while they are undergrads, and then focusing on becoming a teacher in their masters year. The kids in those programs are excellent students, with higher GPAs in their subject areas, and higher SATs than kids in those majors who are not planning on becoming teachers. (Again, that is how it was when I left for the antipodes!)

 

[RUThere2]

I have been saying this for years--Rutgers needs to get more grads into the schools to become teachers and coaches. I think this will help in getting better students and student-athletes to eventually enroll at Rutgers. When I was in high school,it seemed like every teacher went to William Paterson or Montclair State. I am not saying that every student will go to the college their teacher went too,but it increases the exposure of the college, and influences,to some degree, high school students. That being said, I was surprised and glad to hear that Berkeley Hutchinson is now at my town's high school--Manchester.

How is Berkeley H doing. I know he went in to the service when he left RU. Hope he is doing well.

 

[RUCONN]

in response to OP an undergrad education degree is pretty worthless in NJ, u need certification and a master's to teach (and even that really doesnt get you anywhere with the state NJ and the NY/NJ area is with regards to education...but speaking of typical RU shoot itself in the foot nonsense...Mason Gross school of the Arts dance majors arent allowed to compete on the RU dance team.

 

[T2Kplus10]

One other thing. Stanford and Virginia, and many top schools of education, do not offer an undergraduate major in education, nor do they recommend people for certification without a masters degree.

The argument here (and at Rutgers) is that people who want to become teachers should start with a solid grounding in sciences or humanities. We want people to get a bachelors degree in one of those areas, blending some education courses in while they are undergrads, and then focusing on becoming a teacher in their masters year. The kids in those programs are excellent students, with higher GPAs in their subject areas, and higher SATs than kids in those majors who are not planning on becoming teachers. (Again, that is how it was when I left for the antipodes!)

What's your assessment of the RU program (5-years, masters) actually making it harder to find a job as compared to CoNJ's 4-year bachelors program (and others like this). I've heard this a lot - true or fiction?

 

[RU62]

Skillet some of your points are well taken for subject matter areas mostly associated with HS. But what about elementary school.and special ed areas where the need is more for instructional skills and methods.
And not to belabor the point but years ago when Rutgers offered a physical education major it's requirements were more stringent that the other teacher ed schools at the time.

You had to meet most of the basic liberal arts requirements to graduate. This included passing 2 semesters of English during your freshman year/summer in order to return for your sophomore year. One also was required to take biology and in many cases one was in class with the bio-sci majors. Then there was a requirement to take major British writers along with American History and Western Civilization. The first two years were no cupcake. Anatomy and kinesiology were also required as was public speaking.

Based on the NJ state certification guidelines at the time which included 18 credits in a specific subject matter area many PE grads were able to and encouraged to get certified in social studies, English and science areas by take additional history, English and science courses. Simply put the Rutgers PE grads were no dummies. And yes the other courses were what one would normally expect and related to coaching, health and exercise. But make no bones about it the basic liberal arts subject matter requirements were there except for a foreign language.

And intereresting enough there were many PE majors who didn't wind up with a teaching career but ended up in the business world similar to other liberal arts students who majored in other areas.

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

I taught in the Graduate School of Education for 29 years, also serving as Chair of the Ed Psych Dept., and as Associate Dean of the school.

There never was an Undergraduate School of Education at Rutgers; there were undergraduate programs at Rutgers College, Douglass, Livingston, and Cook. When the University merged all departments decades ago, these programs were brought into the Graduate School of Education. At the time, we considered changing the name of the school, but chose not to. (I moved that we change the name to the "Harvard School of Education" but didn't get any votes --true story.)

Part of the reason for changes in the programs at Rutgers are related to requirements for certification from the State Board of Education, and another part has to do with what the leading colleges of education were doing around the country. Rutgers GSE has consistently been one of the top 50 colleges of education, and we associate with colleagues in that group. Moving to a BA/MEd program was motivated in part by a change in requirements from the State DoE. They said that no more than 30 hours of coursework (about 10 courses) could be in education. Since student teaching was part of this, it was felt that this wasn't nearly enough to properly train teachers. So we built 30 into the undergraduate level, and added a graduate year with a masters degree.

All new teachers in NJ get a kind of temporary certificate which enables them to teach for two years under close supervision. If they are successful, they get more permanent certification. (I should put a caveat here; I haven't been at Rutgers for ten years. Some things might have changed.)

Rutgers places students into the "student teaching" process, but does not place or guarantee a job after graduation. Don't know of any school of ed that does. We don't hire for school districts. However, our grads are very successful at finding jobs.

Unlike places like CNJ, Montclair, Rowan, Kean, etc., the GSE doesn't see initial teacher preparation (teacher training) as its primary mission. We focus as much (probably more) on masters and doctoral level education. And research. Although CNJ and MSU are excellent places for becoming a teacher, the research activity of their faculty doesn't compare to Rutgers. Rutgers has leading international scholars in a number of areas. This is an incredible change from when I was first hired. It took a long time and a lot of work to get there, but it is a well-respected unit for research quality.

Also a fair number of RU sports fans. None as big as me, but pretty good!

+1

 

[OntheBanks]

Lots of good discussion and information here.
It's amazing I got a decent elementary education with just one Nun teaching all
subjects to a classroom of close to 60 uniform clad lower middle class
knuckleheads. Must have been the ruler in her hand or the 15lb 5ft rosary beads
dangling from her waist. :pray:

 

[srru86]

One other thing. Stanford and Virginia, and many top schools of education, do not offer an undergraduate major in education

For Stanford wouldn't the minor they offer as an undergraduate offering meet the requirements for licensure in most States?

Virginia has a Bachelor of Science in Education (B.S.Ed.) Including a Kinesiology major.

the GSE doesn't see initial teacher preparation (teacher training) as its primary mission.

Not saying it has to be. Of course the RU GSE is a much more graduate focused department got it. But why can't an BS/BA in Ed be an option at RU? At every major research university the faculty is understandably focused on the graduate level stuff. But nearly all our competitors also allow folks to get a 4 year degree that provides the entrance to the teacher profession.

 

[SkilletHead2]

What's your assessment of the RU program (5-years, masters) actually making it harder to find a job as compared to CoNJ's 4-year bachelors program (and others like this). I've heard this a lot - true or fiction?

I've many friends who are administrators in NJ school districts, and they all scoff (don't get to use that word too often) at that argument. The differential is not very big in a multi-million dollar district, and most districts have programs to get teachers masters degrees anyway. I think the majority of districts look to hire the best person they can. BUT, it is really hard to figure out who that is. You've got a ton of 22 year-olds and their resumes are all practically identical. So I always told my students, "Do whatever you can to stand out. If there is a student committee you can be on here at RU, get on it. If there is volunteering you can do, do it. Get to know your professors. Sure, they will all write you a good letter, but you want your prof to pick up the phone and say, "Ed, this is the kid you want."" Also, in the greater scheme of things, if you want to go teach in California or Illinois, Rutgers is going to carry a ton more weight than TCNJ or MSU, fair or not.

TCNJ and MSU are really excellent schools of education for teacher training. It is where their focus is and they do a great job of it. I have former students teaching at both universities and they are outstanding. It's a completely different approach than RU's GSE. At, Rutgers, the approach is: we want you to have a major in a scholarly discipline, and then get the training to become a teacher (BTW, "training" has become a non-PC word, but hell, we train surgeons and ballerinas, so I don't see what the problem is.). Doing your student teaching a year or so later can make a difference.

So, to make a long story medium, there might be a few who would go for the cheaper candidate, I think more are going to go for the RU degree and the masters that comes with it.

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

I've many friends who are administrators in NJ school districts, and they all scoff (don't get to use that word too often) at that argument. The differential is not very big in a multi-million dollar district, and most districts have programs to get teachers masters degrees anyway. I think the majority of districts look to hire the best person they can. BUT, it is really hard to figure out who that is. You've got a ton of 22 year-olds and their resumes are all practically identical. So I always told my students, "Do whatever you can to stand out. If there is a student committee you can be on here at RU, get on it. If there is volunteering you can do, do it. Get to know your professors. Sure, they will all write you a good letter, but you want your prof to pick up the phone and say, "Ed, this is the kid you want."" Also, in the greater scheme of things, if you want to go teach in California or Illinois, Rutgers is going to carry a ton more weight than TCNJ or MSU, fair or not.

TCNJ and MSU are really excellent schools of education for teacher training. It is where their focus is and they do a great job of it. I have former students teaching at both universities and they are outstanding. It's a completely different approach than RU's GSE. At, Rutgers, the approach is: we want you to have a major in a scholarly discipline, and then get the training to become a teacher (BTW, "training" has become a non-PC word, but hell, we train surgeons and ballerinas, so I don't see what the problem is.). Doing your student teaching a year or so later can make a difference.

So, to make a long story medium, there might be a few who would go for the cheaper candidate, I think more are going to go for the RU degree and the masters that comes with it.

Fantastic Post. I agree, this is Rutgers. We're an Elite School. Sure this Century hasn't been kind but it's hard to deny Rutgers place among the pantheon on Elite academic institutions in this country.

I just finished "Boys in the Boat", and there were a few references to Rutgers. Surgeons, Ballerinas, Professors, you bet. But Elementary Ed, Phys. Ed, No Thanks. Let them go elsewhere.

 

[SkilletHead2]

For Stanford wouldn't the minor they offer as an undergraduate offering meet the requirements for licensure in most States?

Virginia has a Bachelor of Science in Education (B.S.Ed.) Including a Kinesiology major.


Not saying it has to be. Of course the RU GSE is a much more graduate focused department got it. But why can't an BS/BA in Ed be an option at RU? At every major research university the faculty is understandably focused on the graduate level stuff. But nearly all our competitors also allow folks to get a 4 year degree that provides the entrance to the teacher profession.

I'm having dinner in a couple weeks with one of my best friends from grad school who is a prof at Stanford. I'll ask him how they do this. I think there program is like RU's.

There are faculty in the GSE who ardently argue for the four year option, and they can make some good arguments for it. Time might be right to look at it again. If you started with the notion of "We want a really good program, and we want it to be amenable to our many athletes in all sports since so many of them want to coach and teach," I'll bet you could come up with a heck of an attractive program. It would have to be open to everyone, but it could be a winner.

The key is, to me, that you have to have a program that looks outstanding once you've built it.

 

[SkilletHead2]

Skillet some of your points are well taken for subject matter areas mostly associated with HS. But what about elementary school.and special ed areas where the need is more for instructional skills and methods.
And not to belabor the point but years ago when Rutgers offered a physical education major it's requirements were more stringent that the other teacher ed schools at the time.

You had to meet most of the basic liberal arts requirements to graduate. This included passing 2 semesters of English during your freshman year/summer in order to return for your sophomore year. One also was required to take biology and in many cases one was in class with the bio-sci majors. Then there was a requirement to take major British writers along with American History and Western Civilization. The first two years were no cupcake. Anatomy and kinesiology were also required as was public speaking.

Based on the NJ state certification guidelines at the time which included 18 credits in a specific subject matter area many PE grads were able to and encouraged to get certified in social studies, English and science areas by take additional history, English and science courses. Simply put the Rutgers PE grads were no dummies. And yes the other courses were what one would normally expect and related to coaching, health and exercise. But make no bones about it the basic liberal arts subject matter requirements were there except for a foreign language.

And intereresting enough there were many PE majors who didn't wind up with a teaching career but ended up in the business world similar to other liberal arts students who majored in other areas.

Good points, 62. The kids in the GSE who are in elementary or special ed are typically psych majors as undergrads (but don't have to be). Very good training for special ed folks as special ed instruction leans heavily on behavioral analysis principles. Personally, I would like to see elementary schools with teachers with backgrounds in the arts and sciences as well. They all teach math, science, English, art, etc. Having people with degrees in those areas and something of a passion for them is a good thing, imho. BUT, this is an area where one can make arguments for many approaches. I think (and again, I haven't been there in ten years), RU is pretty happy with its approach.

And, btw, although I don't think you said this, "early childhood education" is birth through to kindergarten, not elementary. A lot of programs are Early Childhood/Elementary, in which case, it's both.

 

[RU62]

Skillet, let's not make it that complicated. At Rutgers you can have a curriculum that could require the specific liberal arts distribution requirements and still blend in the required early childhood or elementary courses required for certification. This would set Rutgers above the other schools in terms of a broader scope of teacher education and still focus on the requirements for teaching certification. This can be a 4 year program. The same would hold true for secondary certification with a concentration in specific major areas such as English, history, science etc. In part that's how it was many years ago before the undergrad education major disappeared. And best of all students selecting this kpton would also be well prepared to enter the business world, even professional areas or graduate school programs

The big question is why the change?

 

[SkilletHead2]

The reason for the change was two-fold. First, an administration that was antagonistic to schools of ed required that no more of 30 hours of coursework could be in education. This was not acceptable in terms of trying to get kids proper and sufficient training. Second, research indicated that people with academic degrees in liberal arts and sciences seemed to be better teachers. Putting those together, a program with some work at the undergrad level (kind of an ed minor), and then a focused year on teacher training had a lot going for it.

And the kids came. Had to turn folks away. And the quality was there once they graduated. It's a good model.

Could a four-year model be a good one? It's possible, but the tricky thing is getting the student teaching in. The requirements for that have been increased dramatically over the years, and we have no option on that. That's why the postgrad year masters works so well. We can put kids in schools for a long time in the fall semester, and then engage them in a lot of reflection and analysis in the spring semester. You can't really expect kids to do coursework while they are student teaching -- it's a pretty intensive experience.

But, if you really wanted to do it, you could probably get creative and come up with a good program. You kind of have to take into account the idea that most faculty don't want to do a less than good program to accommodate athletics. It has to be win win.

 

[Caliknight]

One other thing. Stanford and Virginia, and many top schools of education, do not offer an undergraduate major in education, nor do they recommend people for certification without a masters degree.

The argument here (and at Rutgers) is that people who want to become teachers should start with a solid grounding in sciences or humanities. We want people to get a bachelors degree in one of those areas, blending some education courses in while they are undergrads, and then focusing on becoming a teacher in their masters year. The kids in those programs are excellent students, with higher GPAs in their subject areas, and higher SATs than kids in those majors who are not planning on becoming teachers. (Again, that is how it was when I left for the antipodes!)

This makes more sense now. Thanks for spelling it out, Skills,

 

[Rhuarc]

"I think the majority of districts look to hire the best person they can. BUT, it is really hard to figure out who that is. You've got a ton of 22 year-olds and their resumes are all practically identical. So I always told my students, "Do whatever you can to stand out. If there is a student committee you can be on here at RU, get on it. If there is volunteering you can do, do it. Get to know your professors. Sure, they will all write you a good letter, but you want your prof to pick up the phone and say, "Ed, this is the kid you want."" Also, in the greater scheme of things, if you want to go teach in California or Illinois, Rutgers is going to carry a ton more weight than TCNJ or MSU, fair or not."

This is by far the most important nugget in this whole thread. I tell my student teachers and field work students it all the time. The admins want a simple hiring process but they don't have an easy way to separate the candidates because the resumes are so similar. Do ANYTHING you can to look good and be better than your competition. Start subbing, make yourself invaluable to that school you're in. You have no idea how happy you will make an admin if you can simplify the hiring process for them. .

 

[Rhuarc]

I wish I had seen this thread earlier, but I was a member of the first GSE graduating class with a masters. It was an interesting time, since everything was so new. The professors and office staff were amazing at helping us get by despite things being in constant flux. it did take me awhile to get a job after graduating. I was told very clearly in multiple interviews that it would be difficult to get me hired due to my masters. This was in 1998-2000.

Being a man got me in lots of interviews but I was very green and took hard work and effort to make myself invaluable. I subbed, improved a lot and didn't give up. Now I work in one of the best states school districts and don't regret my advanced degree a bit. In my classes, I've had students observe me from TCNJ, Rutgers, Rider and William Patterson. The TCNJ students are the most prepared (as juniors). The sophomore students are almost identical regardless of school.

By the way, Skillet is the best resource for teaching advice on this forum. He has a lot of experience and wisdom for education. When he speaks, listen!