Leverage over Head Coaches

[read option]

Not that the Ash extension and the inexcusable decision by Hobbs to do it hasn’t been discussed as nauseum here, but I have a perspective I haven’t seen (or at least here) to add.

Maybe it’s because it’s Black Monday, but it seems like each and every season there are enough hirings and firings that it doesn’t seem necessary to lock yourself into a guy long term and/or with any guaranteed money until he’s a proven winner.

If we didn’t lock ourselves into Ash and had money freed up we could’ve fired him like we should have. And the beauty would be all of the options we could have at HC by doing so.

Instead we sit here another year with another 2-4 win season inevitable for 2019 watching other programs improve and do so smartly by committing to a HC with reasonable terms that don’t hamstring them for years to come.

RU on the other hand not only doesn’t have the wherewithal to sign anyone impactful, they cripple themselves even further by committing significant dollars to an unproven nobody who’s proven to be inept.

The next hire not only needs to be the right guy, but needs to have advantageous terms to RU. Simply put, you win you get extended, you don’t, we move on. I realize that may limit some of the talented coaches we could get, but I also think we can’t afford to take a chance like we did with Ash - he’s set the program back years in just 3 seasons.

Create your own leverage and do it right.

 

[NickRU714]

People around here justify extensions by saying:

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for a coach to recruit without at least 4 years left on his contract."

 

[bac2therac]

People around here justify extensions by saying:

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for a coach to recruit without at least 4 years left on his contract."

agree...this is the most comical excuse used by posters on this board..they act like agents for the coach....if this was true...NO COACH would ever be fired. Same bs arguments used for Fred Hill and Kyle Flood extensions....fact is winning coaches get it done, if you are torpedoing in your third year, its obvious you are not going to get it done

 

[RUskoolie]

It's honestly becoming a massive problem across college football. Coaches with 10, 20, 30m buyouts.

Are you kidding me? They coach football. They're not a hedge fund manager with 5B AUM or the CEO of a small cap company.

That being said, between Hobbs giving a rookie HC a guaranteed 7 year deal worth 15m. Inexplicably extending the mens soccer coach 2 years after a horrible 3 years (just to fire him the following year). Extending C-Viv AND giving her a raise when the market didn't justify it and finally firing the womens swim coach just to pay her 5 times her salary in a settlement....that all makes me believe we need a new AD the next time we hire a football coach because all we have right now is a fundraiser who cannot negotiate whatsoever.

 

[BoroKnight]

It's honestly becoming a massive problem across college football. Coaches with 10, 20, 30m buyouts.

Are you kidding me? They coach football. They're not a hedge fund manager with 5B AUM or the CEO of a small cap company.

That being said, between Hobbs giving a rookie HC a guaranteed 7 year deal worth 15m. Inexplicably extending the mens soccer coach 2 years after a horrible 3 years (just to fire him the following year). Extending C-Viv AND giving her a raise when the market didn't justify it and finally firing the womens swim coach just to pay her 5 times her salary in a settlement....that all makes me believe we need a new AD the next time we hire a football coach because all we have right now is a fundraiser who cannot negotiate whatsoever.

First off, thank you for noticing that this happens in a lot of places. Extending too soon has become contagious. I totally get a coach having trouble recruiting with a year left, but five? Four? Come on. Nonsense. If a coach's situation is that fragile, he probably isn't very good in the first place.

That being said, you also mentioned the better reasons for getting rid of Hobbs, should they decide to do so. Ash is a bad hire with a bad contract. It happens. But there is a pattern here. If it was just Ash, and we had the other good things happening that we have around the athletic program, I would laugh at the football-centric yahoos who want everyone from Barchi on down gone because of the football coach. But there IS a pattern, and it's troubling.

 

[srru86]

Are you kidding me? They coach football. They're not a hedge fund manager with 5B AUM or the CEO of a small cap company.

.

I bet many football fans think a successful football coach brings much more societal value than any of those types.

 

[ruready07]

It's honestly becoming a massive problem across college football. Coaches with 10, 20, 30m buyouts.

Are you kidding me? They coach football. They're not a hedge fund manager with 5B AUM or the CEO of a small cap company.

That being said, between Hobbs giving a rookie HC a guaranteed 7 year deal worth 15m. Inexplicably extending the mens soccer coach 2 years after a horrible 3 years (just to fire him the following year). Extending C-Viv AND giving her a raise when the market didn't justify it and finally firing the womens swim coach just to pay her 5 times her salary in a settlement....that all makes me believe we need a new AD the next time we hire a football coach because all we have right now is a fundraiser who cannot negotiate whatsoever.

There are people in our athletic department who don’t truly believe in us. There are leader type people who undervalue us and don’t have a connection to the university or it’s programs enough to defend them and have a feeling of ownership towards the programs. When this is the case, they give out contracts that THEY believe are necessary for someone to take the job and not what the job actually deserves.

For example , if I’m the Rutgers AD, people will be considering themselves blessed beyond belief to be getting a coaching opportunity at this university and never feel like they are doing me a favor by taking over “dumpster fires”. Ash and Hobbs have a related view towards our program and history and it’s a problem

 

[motorb54]

Did Hobbs think Ash would turn down a four year deal?
Seven years..........fu**in ridiculous

 

[fire251]

Why not an incentive based contract?

Base salary $250,000
Zero wins pays $200,000
Last place in the conference pays $200,000
Each win pays $200,000
etc.... etc.... etc

Become National Champ and you are up to about $7 million.

The positive? If you are fired for having consistently awful results, like most corporations, you are paid your base salary times each year remaining on your contract. Four years left? The coach gets a million dollar handshake.

The University is never "on the hook" for a ridiculous severance amount.

(I believe that even Bama has an incentive based contract for Saban, and as long as he wins, he hits the annual mega-millions lottery and he pays for nothing.... even his income and real estate taxes are paid by donors)

 

[Bagarocks]

The next coach only needs one thing on his resume
WINNER!
Pop Warner winner
HS HC winner
D3 HC winner
D2 HC winner
D1 HC winner

 

[Knight Shift]

Why not an incentive based contract?

Base salary $250,000
Zero wins pays $200,000
Last place in the conference pays $200,000
Each win pays $200,000
etc.... etc.... etc

Become National Champ and you are up to about $7 million.

The positive? If you are fired for having consistently awful results, like most corporations, you are paid your base salary times each year remaining on your contract. Four years left? The coach gets a million dollar handshake.

The University is never "on the hook" for a ridiculous severance amount.

(I believe that even Bama has an incentive based contract for Saban, and as long as he wins, he hits the annual mega-millions lottery and he pays for nothing.... even his income and real estate taxes are paid by donors)

Because no coach would ever sign such a contract. It is not the way it works. This could only work if the current herd mentality of universities was abandoned.

By the way, I like your idea. I just don't see it working in the current environment.

 

[fire251]

Because no coach would ever sign such a contract. It is not the way it works. This could only work if the current herd mentality of universities was abandoned.

By the way, I like your idea. I just don't see it working in the current environment.

I'd love to have all the Universities organize and simply tell the agents... sorry, this is the way it is. They can be the worst and still make $750,000 a year... or be the best and make $7million a year.

Are the coaches gonna quit ? Are they gonna pay huge bucks and sue? Are they willing to take jobs that pay $35,000 to $75,000 a year jobs as maybe teachers? Are they willing to spend personal funds to sue, that may last for years?

It's gotten out of hand, because we allowed it by becoming enablers.

 

[tico brown]

It's honestly becoming a massive problem across college football. Coaches with 10, 20, 30m buyouts.

Are you kidding me? They coach football. They're not a hedge fund manager with 5B AUM or the CEO of a small cap company.

Ask Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Michigan, etc how many millions those coaches bring in to their universities from what theyve done with their programs?

 

[Knight Shift]

I'd love to have all the Universities organize and simply tell the agents... sorry, this is the way it is. They can be the worst and still make $750,000 a year... or be the best and make $7million a year.

Are the coaches gonna quit ? Are they gonna pay huge bucks and sue? Are they willing to take jobs that pay $35,000 to $75,000 a year jobs as maybe teachers? Are they willing to spend personal funds to sue, that may last for years?

It's gotten out of hand, because we allowed it by becoming enablers.

I wholeheartedly agree. I would love to see your proposal happen. @rutgersguy1 has said similar things in the past. The herd mentality is out of control with universities.
The other problem is that the traditional powers such as Ohio State, Michigan, Clemson, Alabama, etc., would never agree to this. The deck is stacked against everyone else.

 

[Big East Beast]

Not that the Ash extension and the inexcusable decision by Hobbs to do it hasn’t been discussed as nauseum here, but I have a perspective I haven’t seen (or at least here) to add.

Maybe it’s because it’s Black Monday, but it seems like each and every season there are enough hirings and firings that it doesn’t seem necessary to lock yourself into a guy long term and/or with any guaranteed money until he’s a proven winner.

If we didn’t lock ourselves into Ash and had money freed up we could’ve fired him like we should have. And the beauty would be all of the options we could have at HC by doing so.

Instead we sit here another year with another 2-4 win season inevitable for 2019 watching other programs improve and do so smartly by committing to a HC with reasonable terms that don’t hamstring them for years to come.

RU on the other hand not only doesn’t have the wherewithal to sign anyone impactful, they cripple themselves even further by committing significant dollars to an unproven nobody who’s proven to be inept.

The next hire not only needs to be the right guy, but needs to have advantageous terms to RU. Simply put, you win you get extended, you don’t, we move on. I realize that may limit some of the talented coaches we could get, but I also think we can’t afford to take a chance like we did with Ash - he’s set the program back years in just 3 seasons.

Create your own leverage and do it right.

You said you know this has been discussed ad nauseum yet somehow you miss what happened. There wasn’t an extension, there was a contingency clause in the agreement that if the program got sanctions there would be additional years added because the setup for success and outlook (timeline) had changed. These were circumstances not only beyond Ash’s control, but that were set into motion prior to his arrival. Why should he pay the cost of Rutgers’ incompetence with his career? If you think that is hyperbolic, please tell me which Rutgers head football coaches have ever been a college head coach again after leaving RU. I don’t think any.

Good for him in negotiating what is a perfectly reasonable clause to protect himself because everyone know the sharks start circling in year 3. He would not (and should not) have accepted the job otherwise. Who would? Schiano laid out similar conditions before coming from Miami with respect to upgrades to facilities. Coaches who have been a part of winning programs know what they are up against— it’s why we hire them.

The notion that employment agreements are unilateral arrangements where the employee should be happy to receive compensation and make no demands of the employer for resources (including time) to meet the goals of the job is the very definition of bad management/poor leadership.

It was clear to me with both the Hobbs and Ash hires that there would be a major learning curve and it would be 5-7 years at minimum. Schiano had been dreaming of the RU job since he was a GA and he was a great recruiter and the program took several steps backwards his first several years before getting on the right track.

I wasn’t a fan of the Ash hire myself for the above reasons, but once Hobbs made that call there is some need to have the courage of your convictions. We have paid a premium on the education of Chris Ash on what is required to be a head coach and NJ/RU and one more year is just another calculation of not only what we have but also how attractive the job is to qualified candidates. The closer we get to the big 10 $$ the easier it becomes for us to realistically compete on-field and off.

 

[Knight Shift]

You said you know this has been discussed ad nauseum yet somehow you miss what happened. There wasn’t an extension, there was a contingency clause in the agreement that if the program got sanctions there would be additional years added because the setup for success and outlook (timeline) had changed. These were circumstances not only beyond Ash’s control, but that were set into motion prior to his arrival. Why should he pay the cost of Rutgers’ incompetence with his career? If you think that is hyperbolic, please tell me which Rutgers head football coaches have ever been a college head coach again after leaving RU. I don’t think any.

Good for him in negotiating what is a perfectly reasonable clause to protect himself because everyone know the sharks start circling in year 3. He would not (and should not) have accepted the job otherwise. Who would? Schiano laid out similar conditions before coming from Miami with respect to upgrades to facilities. Coaches who have been a part of winning programs know what they are up against— it’s why we hire them.

The notion that employment agreements are unilateral arrangements where the employee should be happy to receive compensation and make no demands of the employer for resources (including time) to meet the goals of the job is the very definition of bad management/poor leadership.

It was clear to me with both the Hobbs and Ash hires that there would be a major learning curve and it would be 5-7 years at minimum. Schiano had been dreaming of the RU job since he was a GA and he was a great recruiter and the program took several steps backwards his first several years before getting on the right track.

I wasn’t a fan of the Ash hire myself for the above reasons, but once Hobbs made that call there is some need to have the courage of your convictions. We have paid a premium on the education of Chris Ash on what is required to be a head coach and NJ/RU and one more year is just another calculation of not only what we have but also how attractive the job is to qualified candidates. The closer we get to the big 10 $$ the easier it becomes for us to realistically compete on-field and off.

Very well put. But it will not stop the crying and whining we see on a daily basis here, most of it from the same 5-10 posters.
Suppose Hobbs negotiated hard and told Ash no dice on the sanctions clause. Maybe Ash would have interviewed for the Syracuse job, and we would have wound up with Babers. Worst case scenario!

 

[RUskoolie]

Ask Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Michigan, etc how many millions those coaches bring in to their universities from what theyve done with their programs?

Way to cherry pick.

Meanwhile middle of the pack schools have to pay a HC 10-14m to go away. That is not okay to me. Something has to change.

 

[tico brown]

Way to cherry pick.

Meanwhile middle of the pack schools have to pay a HC 10-14m to go away. That is not okay to me. Something has to change.

OK, ask UCF, Houston, TCU, Washington State how important a succesful football program picks up the rest of the campus. Its not their fault that Rutgers have Admin who acts like The Wilpons on how they run their athletic program.

 

[read option]

Very well put. But it will not stop the crying and whining we see on a daily basis here, most of it from the same 5-10 posters.
Suppose Hobbs negotiated hard and told Ash no dice on the sanctions clause. Maybe Ash would have interviewed for the Syracuse job, and we would have wound up with Babers. Worst case scenario!

If if Hobbs told Ash no sanctions clause then the repercussions are that Ash doesn’t take the job?! That would’ve been f*ckin fantastic and exactly why should you drive a hard bargain with these coaches.

We could’ve moved on with the money we saved, and hired a winner like Babers not a loser like Ash.

 

[Kright]

It's honestly becoming a massive problem across college football. Coaches with 10, 20, 30m buyouts.

Are you kidding me? They coach football. They're not a hedge fund manager with 5B AUM or the CEO of a small cap company.
.

They're just gym coaches. For what Saban is paid, he should never lose or make such an idiotic decision like to attempt that FG against Auburn.

Speaking of leverage, I love Coach Schiano & would take him back in a second but RU should have him by the balls now. He aint ever being a head coach again unless it's at good ole RU.

 

[Knight Shift]

If if Hobbs told Ash no sanctions clause then the repercussions are that Ash doesn’t take the job?! That would’ve been f*ckin fantastic and exactly why should you drive a hard bargain with these coaches.

We could’ve moved on with the money we saved, and hired a winner like Babers not a loser like Ash.

Except that Babers was already pretty much hired by Syracuse. I get your point, and I agree that RU (and all the other schools) have to start negotiating much harder, especially when they are negotiating with a coach who is vying for his first head coaching position.

The only thing that gives me pause, and maybe I am reading too much into it, but at one point, Hobbs said that Ash actually wanted the job. Yeah, this is a P5 job and should be coveted. But this job is pretty much seen as a coaching graveyard. Anderson, Shea, Graber, Flood. Only one guy made something of it- Schiano. That's not a great batting average if I am a coach looking to sign on to Rutgers. So maybe RU has to offer things that other schools don't offer.

 

[Jimpeg]

They're just gym coaches. For what Saban is paid, he should never lose or make such an idiotic decision like to attempt that FG against Auburn.

Speaking of leverage, I love Coach Schiano & would take him back in a second but RU should have him by the balls now. He aint ever being a head coach again unless it's at good ole RU.

they "may be just gym coaches" but the revenue they create..or loose with poor performance warrants the salary..

 

[RU_DIO]

You said you know this has been discussed ad nauseum yet somehow you miss what happened. There wasn’t an extension, there was a contingency clause in the agreement that if the program got sanctions there would be additional years added because the setup for success and outlook (timeline) had changed. These were circumstances not only beyond Ash’s control, but that were set into motion prior to his arrival. Why should he pay the cost of Rutgers’ incompetence with his career? If you think that is hyperbolic, please tell me which Rutgers head football coaches have ever been a college head coach again after leaving RU. I don’t think any.

Good for him in negotiating what is a perfectly reasonable clause to protect himself because everyone know the sharks start circling in year 3. He would not (and should not) have accepted the job otherwise. Who would? Schiano laid out similar conditions before coming from Miami with respect to upgrades to facilities. Coaches who have been a part of winning programs know what they are up against— it’s why we hire them.

The notion that employment agreements are unilateral arrangements where the employee should be happy to receive compensation and make no demands of the employer for resources (including time) to meet the goals of the job is the very definition of bad management/poor leadership.

It was clear to me with both the Hobbs and Ash hires that there would be a major learning curve and it would be 5-7 years at minimum. Schiano had been dreaming of the RU job since he was a GA and he was a great recruiter and the program took several steps backwards his first several years before getting on the right track.

I wasn’t a fan of the Ash hire myself for the above reasons, but once Hobbs made that call there is some need to have the courage of your convictions. We have paid a premium on the education of Chris Ash on what is required to be a head coach and NJ/RU and one more year is just another calculation of not only what we have but also how attractive the job is to qualified candidates. The closer we get to the big 10 $$ the easier it becomes for us to realistically compete on-field and off.

Rutgers gave a first year coach who was far from a slam dunk a 7 year contract. Sanctions or no sanctions, that's insane. It's not like Rutgers was going to get huge sanctions for their violations.

 

[Hondo77]

You said you know this has been discussed ad nauseum yet somehow you miss what happened. There wasn’t an extension, there was a contingency clause in the agreement that if the program got sanctions there would be additional years added because the setup for success and outlook (timeline) had changed. These were circumstances not only beyond Ash’s control, but that were set into motion prior to his arrival. Why should he pay the cost of Rutgers’ incompetence with his career? If you think that is hyperbolic, please tell me which Rutgers head football coaches have ever been a college head coach again after leaving RU. I don’t think any.

Good for him in negotiating what is a perfectly reasonable clause to protect himself because everyone know the sharks start circling in year 3. He would not (and should not) have accepted the job otherwise. Who would? Schiano laid out similar conditions before coming from Miami with respect to upgrades to facilities. Coaches who have been a part of winning programs know what they are up against— it’s why we hire them.

The notion that employment agreements are unilateral arrangements where the employee should be happy to receive compensation and make no demands of the employer for resources (including time) to meet the goals of the job is the very definition of bad management/poor leadership.

It was clear to me with both the Hobbs and Ash hires that there would be a major learning curve and it would be 5-7 years at minimum. Schiano had been dreaming of the RU job since he was a GA and he was a great recruiter and the program took several steps backwards his first several years before getting on the right track.

I wasn’t a fan of the Ash hire myself for the above reasons, but once Hobbs made that call there is some need to have the courage of your convictions. We have paid a premium on the education of Chris Ash on what is required to be a head coach and NJ/RU and one more year is just another calculation of not only what we have but also how attractive the job is to qualified candidates. The closer we get to the big 10 $$ the easier it becomes for us to realistically compete on-field and off.

Very well reasoned. That's why you have no place here.

 

[read option]

Except that Babers was already pretty much hired by Syracuse. I get your point, and I agree that RU (and all the other schools) have to start negotiating much harder, especially when they are negotiating with a coach who is vying for his first head coaching position.

The only thing that gives me pause, and maybe I am reading too much into it, but at one point, Hobbs said that Ash actually wanted the job. Yeah, this is a P5 job and should be coveted. But this job is pretty much seen as a coaching graveyard. Anderson, Shea, Graber, Flood. Only one guy made something of it- Schiano. That's not a great batting average if I am a coach looking to sign on to Rutgers. So maybe RU has to offer things that other schools don't offer.

Ash wanted the job because he couldn’t land another in P5, especially at the terms we were offering. If course he wanted it $$$$