They are a terrible team?They are not decent?They have stuck with some of the best teams in the conference because they sucked?
Listen I know no one wants to hear it.....
- Thread starter bac2therac
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They are a terrible team?They are not decent?They have stuck with some of the best teams in the conference because they sucked?
This is great post ...
You know I have been harping on the "learning how to win" concept when "there is no one on the roster to learn it from "...reminds me so much of Rutgers football all of 2004 and for the first half of 2015 until they learned how to close out games
I remain of the opinion, contrary to many, that we don't have this huge talent disparity that many think is there ...we have one major defency ....but we do so many other good things on the court that it's not just coaching ...it's talent of the players which isn't as
Bad as other make it out to be but it is magnified by everyone can see outside shooting and free throw shooting
This reminds me of bannons first year ....we lost a lot of close games then found a way to beat the cuse st the RAC late in year ....and it carried in to the big east tourney with a win against a ranked West Virginia and then the buzzer beater st the garden against to Georgetown then a competitive loss to elite eight Uconn in Friday night st the garden ....which carried to a improvement for nest year
It would be a big deal to close out with 2 of 3 and win a couple of close games to start this process this year and fuel the off season when most of the team comes back next year
At the end of the day you are what your record says you are......2-13 isnt good by any definition. Sure RU is not an easy win and is a tough out but good is an exaggeration. Cannot redefine good...for this program maybe its a good team
Love the message of the OP. Agree completely. However, this is not a good team. It'll take 2-3 seasons to get good.
You cannot always go back to the win and loss column to define the strength of a team. It's too easy, lazy.
You cannot be a shit team and contend with the teams this team has played with this year. A badteam loses by twenty last night to a tournament team that is 20 and 7. This is not a bad team. Is it a great team?Still so young and in a rebuild phase. So thats obvious. Is it a decent team to good?I would say they are decent. By the games they have been in this year.
Overall Bac, as OP, great message.
Still, the team has a ways to go with becoming winners in these situations, instead of losers. Believing they are a new Rutgers team that can win.
The fans have to do this as well. Every time in a game thread when Rutgers is winning or the score is close, the "The other team is playing horribly. What a bad night for them."
Our mentality has to change as well as fans. This is not a bad team. For 75%, the mentality has changed. The post have changed. For 25% that attribute the opponent losing to that team not playing well that night, no. That is the Rutgers Basketball team making them play bad, switching well, hedging correctly, playing great defense.
Still, the team has a ways to go with becoming winners in these situations, instead of losers. Believing they are a new Rutgers team that can win.
The fans have to do this as well. Every time in a game thread when Rutgers is winning or the score is close, the "The other team is playing horribly. What a bad night for them."
Our mentality has to change as well as fans. This is not a bad team. For 75%, the mentality has changed. The post have changed. For 25% that attribute the opponent losing to that team not playing well that night, no. That is the Rutgers Basketball team making them play bad, switching well, hedging correctly, playing great defense.
I said this a ton before the season and at the start of the season.... that this team could be tremendously better over last year, and still see very little movement in the W/L column. That's pretty much playing out.
We had six losses last year by 30+, including one by 50. Twelve losses by 22+. 7 games decided by single digits, and we won just 2 (Central Arkansas, FDU)
This season? We've only had one loss by more than 20 points, by 28 at Michigan State. 11 games decided by single digits, and we've won 5 of them (Nebraska, Hartford, PA St, Stony Brook, DePaul).
Love the direction we're headed... can't wait to see this team progress, and add more pieces through recruiting.
We had six losses last year by 30+, including one by 50. Twelve losses by 22+. 7 games decided by single digits, and we won just 2 (Central Arkansas, FDU)
This season? We've only had one loss by more than 20 points, by 28 at Michigan State. 11 games decided by single digits, and we've won 5 of them (Nebraska, Hartford, PA St, Stony Brook, DePaul).
Love the direction we're headed... can't wait to see this team progress, and add more pieces through recruiting.
Okay. That is where you and I will disagree. I do not think bad teams play the way we have over the season. And as others agree, it is not always wins and losses. It is what constitutes those wins and losses.
Ask the majority of coaches what they think of Rutgers Basketball at the current moment. They will not say they have a bad team.
The truth is somewhere in the middle of bad and good. Decent.
I am hoping this is what we all expected would happen...phase 1 play close and lose at the end.
Naturally now that we are living it, it is tough not to worry that we don't have the DNA in the players to win when the going gets tough.
That's why people take notes...remind ourselves this is all expected and not to worry.
Naturally now that we are living it, it is tough not to worry that we don't have the DNA in the players to win when the going gets tough.
That's why people take notes...remind ourselves this is all expected and not to worry.
Yes we are at the bottom of the BIG but out of I think 352 D-1 teams we are rated at about #125 which is so much better than where we finished last year which I think was #273. We are rated better than 225+ teams. Thus I don't exactly think we are bad. We are decent considering all D-1 teams. We are #3 in the country in offensive rebounding.
As a team on the bottom, I am just saying, what others have also said, I am not going to judge them by wins and losses. It's a lazy argument. Judge be the quality of the loss, and the quality of the win. Was their effort?Was it close?Were they ever up?
In doing that, it is hard to say this team is bad.
In the business side of athletics, it is wins and losses sometimes that determines if a coach gets a pay day, or let go. Or if the fans are providing a profit.
In looking for improvement, and seeing the quality of a team, you have to go deeper.
13 teams ahead of them with a different W and L column. They are not teams on head and shoulders above Rutgers Basketball program. Far from that.
When compared to the rest of college basketball, this is not a good team. Not even top third nationally.
This also isn't a "bad" team, though. This isn't a team that other teams can look past on the schedule, or one that is easily penciled in as a win - except for a few games where we just collapsed, this team is a fight for most teams in a top tier conference.
By contrast, last year was a "bad" team... a truly terrible one. So, this team is "vastly improved", to be sure. Still not "good" in the greater scheme of things... more "mediocre" (which is a massive amount of progress in a very short time).
This also isn't a "bad" team, though. This isn't a team that other teams can look past on the schedule, or one that is easily penciled in as a win - except for a few games where we just collapsed, this team is a fight for most teams in a top tier conference.
By contrast, last year was a "bad" team... a truly terrible one. So, this team is "vastly improved", to be sure. Still not "good" in the greater scheme of things... more "mediocre" (which is a massive amount of progress in a very short time).
"Vastly improved" because all the players are available to play. I love how everyone is giving Pike a pass because this team terrible. Last year's team was this team with all the front court players on the IR. Pike will need to bring in a few recruits to win me over.
I guess the question is definition of good/improved/much better than expected.
I would define "good" differently from most people....by your definition, I would guess a good team is a Top 25 program or a team that consistently make the NCAA's....by the standards of where RU has been over the last 3-4 years, this is a drastically improved team that can only get better, once the roster is retooled a bit into next year.
There are teams in the B1G based on their usual standards are "not good".....teams like Ohio State, Illinois or even Michigan State....it's based on what the standards are for each program.
RU doesn't possess elite talent over 4 to 5 recruiting classes like the rest of the B1G, it has a couple of those pieces that are developing (Sanders, Williams etc), mixed with some solid prospects, JUCO's and a grad transfer in Gettys.......Gettys is a player that wouldn't play major minutes for anyone else in the conference, but happens to have turned into one of the most valuable additions to changing the culture here.
I would not strictly define "good" based on wins and losses....that's the easy way out....I also read for about 3 weeks after conference play started that RU would be winless in the B1G, because we didn't challenge ourselves with a tougher schedule in the OOC.....
There are a lot of things thrown against the wall as reasons what or why something hasn't happened, but it's rare that a consensus last place selection in a balanced/strong league like the B1G Ten, suddenly has it's 14th place team, somehow finish 10th.....this team is almost a full year ahead of schedule in my opinion....let's see where they stand after the final 3 games and the play-in game of the B1G tournament and how things shake out in recruiting from April through the fall.
I'm pretty certain RU will be much better 5-6 months from today on paper and into next year than it is today....that wont be decided by wins and losses, but is RU competitive most nights?? Yes and it's starting to payoff on the recruiting trail.
The conversation has evolved since I stated that.
You still think they are bad. Again, bad times do not do what they continue to do.
On second though, not worthy of a new thread, I am feeling certain at least two guys will leave for different teams.
I believe Pikiell will look to do a move similar to Gettys, and be successful at it.
The core that he builds around will definitely be formidable.
I believe Pikiell will look to do a move similar to Gettys, and be successful at it.
The core that he builds around will definitely be formidable.
Great post, Bac. Folks are so caught up in their frustration that they're losing perspective.
This game came down to two plays.
1. Williams missing the front end of 1 and 1. As we're seeing, this doesn't happen to our opponents in the B1G.
2. The phantom foul called on Gettys which resulted in a 4 point swing.
Not trying to hate on Mike. He's a warrior and busts his tail out there. Just pointing out that these are the small reasons why we lose close games. As Bac has stated, we need a talent upgrade to fix it.
1. Williams missing the front end of 1 and 1. As we're seeing, this doesn't happen to our opponents in the B1G.
2. The phantom foul called on Gettys which resulted in a 4 point swing.
Not trying to hate on Mike. He's a warrior and busts his tail out there. Just pointing out that these are the small reasons why we lose close games. As Bac has stated, we need a talent upgrade to fix it.
My expectations were way too high. I expected this team to make the NIT based on all the hype on Johnson. I think Johnson is finally showing his game.
Let me be clear here. I'm not saying Pike is a bad coach. We have been in many winnable games this year because of Pike but we didn't win many of those game because of him too.
winnable games but all against better teams. RU is the least talented team in the conference period....that RU was in these games speaks to Pike, its not because of him that they lost. NIT? this year come on man, I think you were one of those that said well they won 7 last year that would have been 12 if the team was injured so this year they should win more, it doesnt work that way....anyhow RU would have to have 20 wins to make the NIT...thats 7 more wins than they have now
If Minnesota or Illinois was 2-13 in conference with a few close losses, would we call them not a bad team ?
Lots of homerism here IMO.
My view is that we are becoming more competitive in the B1G. But we will not take the next step, whatever that is, until Pike brings in new players.
This crew is giving their best effort but it's not good enough to win. After another couple of recruiting classes I can see us being good enough to win these types of games.
Lots of homerism here IMO.
My view is that we are becoming more competitive in the B1G. But we will not take the next step, whatever that is, until Pike brings in new players.
This crew is giving their best effort but it's not good enough to win. After another couple of recruiting classes I can see us being good enough to win these types of games.
Good coaching wins the close ones. I would give him a break if they were running good plays but the shots are not falling. We are just giving games away at the end. I give him full credit for getting our guys to grind but he is not putting them in position to succeed when the game is on the line.
Really curious what you want to see at the end of games. It seems to me the plays Rutgers is running, especially at the end of games, are strategically sound. They are doing what they should. The ball is in the hands of their best players (while there is limited offensive talent) and these kids are trying to make plays. Multiple times Rutgers has gotten to the line--which is what teams should do when they're leading.
I guess the knock could be Pikiell should run plays that aren't designed to get players to the line because they are such a bad free throw shooting team, but there is a defense on the court that knows Rutgers is a bad FT shooting team. They can foul.
I really want to know what you're looking for.
We know sanders and Johnson are not going to get it done at the end. It's well documented in all of our losses. We are asking too much of them and we are helping out the opponent. As a result, it isn't wise to drain the clock and then have sanders or Johnson try to make something happen. Johnson hit a prayer off the dribble as the shot clock was about the expire. By the way, that was the 2nd time this year I've seen us space out on the time left on the shot after in bounding the ball late in the game.
Work the offense and try to get a good look at any point in the shot clock. Play within themselves.
Work the offense and try to get a good look at any point in the shot clock. Play within themselves.
Okay, if the two most offensively talented players on the team aren't going to get it done, who it? I'm not arguing the point that they shouldn't run the clock down.
Also, very curious what jtung wants to see in games. Specifically.
Before this season, expectations were nil. It was a throwaway year, all we wanted was to see "improvement."
But what we've seen is in a lot of ways tougher than flat-out sucking. Being in games, seeing wins evaporate in the wake of poor shooting (from the line, from beyond the arc, from pretty much anywhere) is painful. It is so much easier to say wins don't matter before you're close to getting any of them.
But of course Bac is right. This program has completely erased the stench of last season's non-competitive embarrassment. They play hard, and you know that won't change as the talent improves. Pikiell won't allow it.
This is frustrating as hell. But last year we weren't even good enough to be frustrated by defeat. It's something.
But what we've seen is in a lot of ways tougher than flat-out sucking. Being in games, seeing wins evaporate in the wake of poor shooting (from the line, from beyond the arc, from pretty much anywhere) is painful. It is so much easier to say wins don't matter before you're close to getting any of them.
But of course Bac is right. This program has completely erased the stench of last season's non-competitive embarrassment. They play hard, and you know that won't change as the talent improves. Pikiell won't allow it.
This is frustrating as hell. But last year we weren't even good enough to be frustrated by defeat. It's something.
Bingo...listen I do not want to disparage the team and I have been major credit to Pike and the team in my OP but you cannot say its a good team when it has lost 13 of 15 games and the wins it has it barely won by a point. This team plays competitive but I think some are fooled....most schools are competitive. We will find out that its not very easy to go from 2 to 6 wins...and its even a harder leap to go from 6 to 9...just look at the rest of the conference.
are teams giving their best effort vs RU...IMO from watching alot of league games, I think they are not. Now I have credited RU for playing very good defensive in these games but if you think that Wisconsin brought their A game to the table against RU you are a homer. I think alot of teams are finding RU is a tough out...meaning they have to work hard to put them away. I think some of these teams take some time off in games. Do I think Northwestern played their A game vs RU...definitely not. Not sure why some take offense to that so much or saying that a 2-13 team is what it is..if it was good it would be 7-8
Down by 2 with 50+ secs to play, Pike calls for Double screen to get Johnson open for a 3. Do you think that was a good call? Sanders should have gotten the isolation and drive the basket with everyone crashing the boards. You do the things that you do well. You don't call for a 3 for a team that has one of the worst 3 pt shooting %. That's poor coaching.
Why the eff would you dribble it out down 4 with 2.9 secs to play? You try a three and maybe they are dumb enough to foul you for a 4 point play. Another poor coaching decision.
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I want to see sanders and Johnson getting shots within the flow of the offense, not waiting until 10 seconds and saying "make something happen". That invites failure and all of the losses down the stretch confirm that. While we obviously aren't going to go ISO with anyone else, I'm fine with the other players taking shots within the offense. Outside of getty, does any have an above average shooting percentage? While sanders and Johnson can get a shot off as the shot clock winds down, they are not good shooter and sanders is a 60% foul shooter. We shouldn't be doing this by design, which Pike did with 6-8 minutes left.
Pike has done an incredible job so that we can even disuss the last 5 minutes of a game. It's been a while since we've been able to do that.
Pike has done an incredible job so that we can even disuss the last 5 minutes of a game. It's been a while since we've been able to do that.
Bac,
Wisconsin missed so many open looks that it wasn't funny. But I thought NW played well. In the 2nd half, we were more aggressive on defense and created a bunch of TO's. I thought it was more of us taking to them instead of them trying to give it to us.
Wisconsin missed so many open looks that it wasn't funny. But I thought NW played well. In the 2nd half, we were more aggressive on defense and created a bunch of TO's. I thought it was more of us taking to them instead of them trying to give it to us.
