MSU center moves the ball forward before the snap...
- Thread starter Ruthinking
- Start date
Seriously folks, what is the rule on this. I see more and more centers (not RU) move the ball forward before each snap. It's a brilliant move if you can continually get away with it. But the refs always overlook it...
We should try it because if we even thought it was to our advantage, that would be a plus. Ever LITTLE bit helps us.
I don't agree with what you're saying. The center is the first to the ball. Everyone positions themselves off of him. He is so good at his trait that he purposely makes himself closer to the ball than he wants to be. The entire team lines up off of where he is...he knows he's too close to the ball but he does it anyway because he knows that he'll just move the ball forward one length. Therefore gaining a foot on the line of scrimmage. Am I the only one who sees this?
It makes no difference, as long as he's making the adjustment after everyone's feet are set, which is always the case, whenever I've seen it, i.e., it's not like the offense all moves forward one ball length. All it does is make a longer distance he has to snap the ball. Maybe there's a slight difference on where the defense lines up to avoid being offside, but the refs rarely call the D-line for being in the neutral zone.
I understand what you're saying. BUT I'm saying that he places his feet closer to the line than would be a comfortable snapping position and THEN the players line up off of his position. Then adjusts the ball forward.
The advantage gained is not so much yardage.. it is moving the defense away from the official LOS.
You know the linemen can see the ball on a think of it as the LOS. They see a defender across that ball they might throw a flag. So the DL lines up behind the ball.. after the center moves it forward. that means they are surrendering 1/3rd of a yard or so. That could add 1/2rd of a yard to every runing play. If not for that, I bet we only lose by 6 TDs.
The line of scrimmage does not change. It is marked on the sideline. If the center or anyone (everyone) else lines up in front of the LOS the officials will call a penalty for offsides (yes there is an offensive penalty for offsides).
"This foul is almost always committed by the defense (any offensive player that moves into the neutral zone after setting would be charged with a false start). However, it is possible for the offense to commit this foul. If an offensive player lines up in the neutral zone, an offside foul will be called against the offense."
You may perceive it differently, but the center lines up in the same spot he would if he did not move the ball forward.
I think what RUthinking is saying here is that the center gains about a foot each snap by lining up closer to the ball than necessary, and then moving the ball forward to get a proper snap. If he had lined up a foot back, then he wouldn't have to move the ball forward to get the proper extension.
I think all centers do it to a degree, but I think it's definitely an effort to gain yardage. I've noticed it with other centers.
I think all centers do it to a degree, but I think it's definitely an effort to gain yardage. I've noticed it with other centers.
ANYONE know if a rule exists wherein the D can tee off on ANY movement of the ball?Forward or backwards?
There was a Roughing the Center call on a Michigan punt during the Iowa game. Iowa DT was not offside and/or in the neutral zone, however, did not give the Michigan center enough time to snap the ball and put his head up (announcers said rules provide the center with 1 second to do this), thus, resulting in the center getting run over. The call resulting in giving Michigan a first down and in field goal range which led to them taking a 13-12 lead. I can't recall ever seeing this penalty.
The center DOES NOT GAIN anything. Think about it. For instance, if the play is blown dead, the ball is put back where it was. And, the DLine does not change it's position based on what the center does. They are almost always already lined up before he moves the ball. There is something called the neutral zone. Heard of it?
SHEESH. Do you think that the OP is the only one who has noticed this? NCAA? BIG? other conferences? It is very common.
So there is no advantage ONLY IF there's an incomplete pass and the ball is placed back at the los. That, I agree. I still maintain that there is a foot of advantage gained by every center who is smart enough to "game" the rules and do so discreetly by placing his feet closer to the LOS on every play and having the entire team line up based on his position. Only established centers seem to be able to pull this off.
BTW...I think that the neutral zone is the length of the football...am I right?
Of course there is a gain from it. Why do you think they do it?
Think of it this way. Imagine the center with the ball ready to snap. Think of it as a photo. He has his snapping arm extended at a certain angle and the ball tilted ready to snap. Think of that as a fixed image. It is his position when snapping the ball.
Now, move that image forward about half a foot to a foot. Because that is what he gains by moving the ball forward. He does not just take the ball where it is and tilt it to get ready to snap. He lifts it, moves it forward, and takes the snap from there. If he were to just tilt it from where it sits, he would be back half a foot to a foot.
I'm not complaining about it as most everybody does it. But I agree with the OP that it is a kind of funny thing, and some centers do it more than others. As long as they don't do too much, they'll get away with it. But imagine a guy coming up and moving the ball forward two feet. Then, they'd probably call it.
The center still snaps the ball back to the QB (or another player) who has NOT moved forward. The play STARTS where the QB receives the ball. NOT where the center puts it.
This is the way it works. The players line up to start the play in their usual positions onsides. When, and only after the OLine takes their 3 point stance, the center moves the ball forward a short distance. The QB and all other players are in the same place they were before he moved the ball. The QB or another player gets the ball in the same place they were before he moved the ball and the same they would have gotten it if he did not move the ball. The LOS for the next play is determined by where the ball moves to after it is snapped and is in no way based on where the ball was before it was snapped, except in the case of an incomplete pass, when it is placed back where it was before the center moved it on the previous play based on the LOS marker on the sideline.
Please give one example of a play where the LOS for the next play is affected by the place the center moved the ball to.
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I see what you are saying. For most plays, this wouldn't make a difference. However, I could see it being an advantage on 3rd and less than a yard for first down.
baseball878 has this sussed. The center takes his position first, and the rest of the team aligns with him. Now, he has to pick where he is going to stand to take his position. His feet will be about a yard behind where the ball is placed, maybe a bit less.
So, now imagine two situations. In situation one, he places his feet such that when he takes his stance, he picks up the ball and holds it such that the rear point of the ball is where it was when it was placed there by the ref. And some centers do just this.
In situation two, he does what the OP is accusing him of. He places his feet about a half foot to a foot in advance of situation one, and when he picks up the ball to get his grip, the rear point of the ball ends up about half a foot to a foot in front of where the ref placed it. Now the whole team has gained that 6-12 inches without doing a thing. The QB gets the ball a bit advanced, the linemen are a bit advanced, etc.
Think a couple inches doesn't matter? How many measurements are there in a typical game? Six inches on one of those could make all the difference.
So I've been watching centers, and some do it and some don't. But I've always had the same curiosity about how those who do get away with it as the OP.
Wow! We have some really smart people on this board. They have figured out how to get a first down in short yardage. Let the center line up offsides.
Jim Harbaugh, Urban Meyer, Nick Saban? They have nothing on our guys. And we are still 2 - 8. Go figure.
I've noticed this too and surprised the refs don't say something to the center, not sure how this ever became acceptable. I were a coach and it bothered me enough I would have DL put his two fists down 1/2 inch from the ball before the center comes to the line. After the OL is set the DL could reposition if desired. If nothing else do it on 3rd and 4th and short.
As several of us have said, this only matters if the center does this before the o-line is set, allowing them to set up forward of where they should be, and I've never seen that happen. It could, in theory affect whether a D-lineman is called for being in the neutral zone, but that's very rare and I imagine refs notice if the center is doing this and don't then call the neutral zone infraction. If there's no effect on the positioning of the o-line or d-line, then there's simply no effect here on the game.
With one exception, in rare cases, as was documented in this article several years ago, where there was a TO after the Steelers center Pouncey, moved the ball forward - he then left the ball a foot or more forward of where it originally was (the refs didn't notice and spot it back where it was) and when the TO was over and the teams lined back up for the next play, the starting point for the LOS was now over a foot forward of where it should have been. Made for an easy first down on a sneak. I wonder if any teams waited for the center to do this before calling TO before a short yardage play and then got this benefit (in this example the defense called TO, but the effect was the same).
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...d-steelers-gain-key-first-down-in-unusual-wa/
With one exception, in rare cases, as was documented in this article several years ago, where there was a TO after the Steelers center Pouncey, moved the ball forward - he then left the ball a foot or more forward of where it originally was (the refs didn't notice and spot it back where it was) and when the TO was over and the teams lined back up for the next play, the starting point for the LOS was now over a foot forward of where it should have been. Made for an easy first down on a sneak. I wonder if any teams waited for the center to do this before calling TO before a short yardage play and then got this benefit (in this example the defense called TO, but the effect was the same).
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...d-steelers-gain-key-first-down-in-unusual-wa/
The point is that it does affect the lineup. The trick is over once the center has his footing. The rest of the o-line will typically line up off the center's position. If he moves closer to the spot than he needs to be to get a proper stance, he then adjusts by moving the ball forward before snapping. Thus everyone is a bit forward. You see it some of the time, and then not in other situations.
Dear Oldtimer67,
I see that you're getting really passionate about this. I'm really not trying to encite a riot, but I still don't think that you understand my (and SkilletHeads) point. First, imagine that there is no football at all. The OL is practicing to line up correctly. How do they do it? THE CENTER LINES UP FIRST and everyone from the guards to the QB line up in relationship to him. Well that's the way they line up during the game too...they don't look at the ball, they look at where the center lined up...before he even touches the ball. The guards position themselves off the centers feet...NOT THE BALL.
So now picture a center who puts his feet closer to the ball than necessary to snap the ball. The whole team lines up off the centers position...not the ball. So now everyone is closer (by even a little bit) to the line. Now the center puts his hands on the ball and moves the ball ever so slightly forward to get comfortable. The ball becomes the LOS. The refs don't stand out of bounds to line the ball up with the sideline marker, the refs allow the imaginary LOS to become where the ball now is, which is slightly forward than the sideline marker. Hence, the offense starts ever so slightly forward. It's a game of inches and inches matter.
If the play results in an incomplete pass, you're right the ball gets put back to the sideline marker thus negating the ball trick. But any other play moves the ball to a new LOS where the trick starts all over again. If six inches are gained on 60 plays, the result is an additional 360 inches over the course of the game which is 30 feet, which is 10 yards. (And that is a Rutgers First Down)...no we don't do this, but we should.
Dear Thinking too much
I don't understand how you think you have just discovered the mystery to winning football. Football has been played for over 100 years. It is closely regulated by the NCAA, the conferences, and the NFL. I find it extremely unlikely that you have hit upon a method of cheating that has not been noticed or regulated by any of those bodies a very long time ago. If you have, congratulations.
IMO the facts are these. All the regulatory bodies know that the center moves the ball AFTER he takes his position. All the regulatory bodies know that this does not give anyone any advantage. Every college head coach knows that his opponents do this. College coaches never complain about this. College coaches know that this does not give anyone any advantage. Offensive linemen are ALLOWED to lineup as CLOSE to the LOS as they want, whether or not the center moves the ball. As a matter of fact, 7 offensive players are required to line up on the LOS. Offensive linemen are NOT allowed to line up past the LOS, if they do they will be called for offsides. For the center to line up closer to the LOS when he moves the ball forward, than when he does not move the ball forward is counter intuitive. Either he is lining up on the LOS, he is lining up behind the LOS (why?) or he is offsides. Maybe you are suggesting that when centers don't move the ball forward they are lining up behind the LOS. Does not make sense? The place where the center and all olinemen line up is covered by the rules. Maybe you are suggesting that the rules are not being enforced? So tell us, when the center lines up then moves the ball forward is he offsides? When the center lines up but does NOT move the ball forward is he lining up behind the LOS?
Just my opinion after 65 years of watching football.
Never said it was the key to winning football. I really hope that you understand that my OP suggesting that it cost us the game was "tongue in cheek". I'm not sure you do. LOL. It was merely an observation about what the center on MSU did on every play. I'm obviously not the only one to see this every week...check out all the other posts. Everyone seems to agree that it is a subtle rule violation that is over-looked AND it is a potential advantage for the offense.
I'm still not sure that you understand what we're all saying...
I'm still not sure that you understand what we're all saying...
There are no SUBTLE rules violations. There are no rules violations that are OVERLOOKED for very long. It is NOT an advantage for the offense.
I am glad that after all these posts you tell that your post was "tongue in cheek" and that it is only a "potential" advantage to the offense.
BTW: your use of the word "everyone" is factually incorrect, but a common rhetorical device to support your own opinion.
oldtimer.. you are wrong.
You are wrong in claiming you know there is no advantage and that everyone else who thinks there might be is an idiot.
skillet has the right idea.. they would not do it if it did not gain some advantage. the refs don't really care when it comes to inches. routinely they place a ball on a punt or kickoff to the nearest whole hashmark rather than exactly where the ball ended up. someone gains a tiny advantage there.. in this game of inches. And when the center moves the ball forward the D loses inches in their formation.
Now.. sometimes the D will line up offsides after this move and it won't be called... and those players will not have adjusted to the center's movement of the ball. And most times the advantage gained means absolutely nothing. Because those inches do not come into play. But in the meta game.. the long haul... sure.. those inches could add up to something.
But it is not something to care that much about. Just train all the centers to do it.. then it doesn't matter. I often think we need to train our players to openly hold more often. It seems common enough in the B1G and seems to rarely be called. Just do it.
The big advantage would be if you made a critical first down by inches on a measurement. But as to rules violations? Man, there are jerseys held, defenders picked off, tripping, holding, illegal movements, guys in motion moving toward the line of scrimmage, etc., etc., on every play. The trick is to not push it too far.
I've even heard rumors that some teams deflate the balls.
I've even heard rumors that some teams deflate the balls.
With all due respect to Thinking, Good 'ol and Skillet, none of you have answered my basic question. Here it is again:
So tell us, when the center lines up then moves the ball forward is he offsides? When the center lines up but does NOT move the ball forward is he lining up behind the LOS? Or does the center (and the rest of the oline) always line up as close to the LOS as legal, whether the center moves the ball forward or not?
I am waiting.
So tell us, when the center lines up then moves the ball forward is he offsides? When the center lines up but does NOT move the ball forward is he lining up behind the LOS? Or does the center (and the rest of the oline) always line up as close to the LOS as legal, whether the center moves the ball forward or not?
I am waiting.
I got this one, guys!
1. No, he isn't offsides. But it's a dead ball foul for moving the ball.
2. No, not completely as he is not completely behind his LOS. He is also in the neutral zone, but he is allowed to be.
3. No, they don't always line up as close to the LOS as legal. Often, the left tackle will line up as far back from the line of scrimmage as he can in order to get a better chance at stopping the pass rush.
OK, let's review the rules a bit. First off, there are two lines of scrimmage, one for the offense (behind the tip of the ball on the offensive side, and one for the defense (behind the tip of the ball on the defensive side). The length of the ball forms the neutral zone. Nobody is allowed to be in the neutral zone except the center. He has to hold the ball, so he is naturally in the neutral zone, which is otherwise prohibited.
But the center is not allowed to have any part of his body beyond the neutral zone. Nor is he allowed to lift or move the ball beyond the neutral zone. That is a violation of Rule 7-1-3-a part 2. To wit: "The snapper may not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone, or simulate the start of play." It's a dead ball foul.
I've never seen it called. Nor do I know if the whole ball has to be moved beyond the neutral zone, or just part of it. But I'm guessing the intent is just part of it. But you see it all the time and it isn't called. And it gains the offense a small advantage, which might come into play on a first down measurement.
If RU center moves the ball one length on the snap that would have doubled the total offense for the game.
The center can be over the ball.
ARTICLE 1. After the ball is ready for play, encroachment occurs when an offensive
player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates (hand
at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap (Exception: When the ball is
put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone).
player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates (hand
at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap (Exception: When the ball is
put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone).
But that is not the point being made by the OP. The point is about the center moving the ball before the snap. Whether he is in the neutral zone or not has not value to the conversation.
The linesmen officials will be looking at the ball, not the flags because the flags will be behind them. I have already said they probably do not care if the center moves the ball just like you do not care if he moves the ball, just like you never see the D complain or the caches complain. It is an accepted thing.. it doesn't mean that no advantage is gained.
The ball IS the neutral zone. It is literally defined as the width of the ball:
SECTION 17. The Neutral Zone
ARTICLE 1. a. The neutral zone is the space between the two scrimmage lines
extended to the sidelines. Its width is equal to the length of the ball (Rule 2-21-2).
b. The neutral zone is established when the ball is ready for play and is resting on the
ground with its long axis at right angles to the scrimmage line and parallel to the
sidelines.
c. The neutral zone exists until there is a change of team possession, until a
scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone or until the ball is declared dead.
Here is everything I found on the snap from the 2015 NCAA rules... knock yourself out...
[
ARTICLE 1. a. The neutral zone is the space between the two scrimmage lines
extended to the sidelines. Its width is equal to the length of the ball (Rule 2-21-2).
b. The neutral zone is established when the ball is ready for play and is resting on the
ground with its long axis at right angles to the scrimmage line and parallel to the
sidelines.
c. The neutral zone exists until there is a change of team possession, until a
scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone or until the ball is declared dead.
Here is everything I found on the snap from the 2015 NCAA rules... knock yourself out...
[
SECTION 1. The Scrimmage
Starting With a Snap
ARTICLE 1. a. The ball shall be put in play by a legal snap unless the rules
provide for a legal free kick (A.R. 4-1-4-I and II).
PENALTY—Dead-ball foul. Five yards from the succeeding spot [S7 and
S19].
b. The ball may not be snapped in a side zone (Rule 2-31-6). If the starting
point for any scrimmage down is in a side zone, the ball shall be transferred
to the hash mark.
Shift and False Start
ARTICLE 2. a. Shift. After a huddle (Rule 2-14) or shift (Rule 2-22-1) and
before the snap, all Team A players must come to an absolute stop and remain
stationary in their positions for at least one full second before the ball is
snapped, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms (A.R. 7-1-2-I).
b. False Start. Each of the following is a false start by Team A if it occurs prior
to the snap after the ball is ready for play and all players are in scrimmage
formation:
1. Any movement by one or more players that simulates the start of a play.
2. The snapper moving to another position.
3. A restricted lineman (Rule 2-27-4) moving his hand(s) or making any
quick movement. [Exceptions: 1. It is not a false start if a Team A
lineman immediately reacts when threatened by a Team B player in the
neutral zone (Rule 7-1-5-a-2) (A.R. 7-1-3-V) 2. Rule 7-1-3-a-3].
4. An offensive player making any quick, jerky movement before the snap,
including but not limited to:
(a) A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick,
jerky motion in any direction.
(b) The snapper shifting or moving the ball, moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks.
(c) The quarterback making any quick, jerky movement that simulates
the beginning of a play.
(d) A back simulating receiving the ball by making any quick, jerky
movement that simulates the beginning of a play.
5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap
after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV).
Offensive Team Requirements—Prior to the Snap
ARTICLE 3. Each of the following (a-d) is a dead-ball foul. Officials should
blow the whistle and not allow the play to continue. After the ball is ready for
play and before it is snapped:
a. Snapper. The snapper (Rule 2-27-8):
1. May not move to a different position nor have any part of his body
beyond the neutral zone;
2. May not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the
start of a play;
3. May take his hand(s) off the ball, but only if this does not simulate the
start of a play.
b. Nine-Yard Marks.
1. Each Team A substitute must have been between the nine-yard marks.
Team A players who participated in the previous down must have been
between the nine-yard marks after the previous down and before the next
snap (A.R. 3-3-4-I).
2. All Team A players must have been between the nine-yard marks after a
charged team timeout, an injury timeout, a media timeout or the end of
a period.
c. Encroachment. Once the snapper is established no other Team A player may
be in or beyond the neutral zone [Exceptions: (1) Substitutes and departing
players; and (2) offensive players in a scrimmage kick formation who break the
neutral zone with their hand(s) to point at opponents].
d. False Start. No Team A player may commit a false start (Rule 7-1-2-b) or
contact an opponent (A.R. 7-1-3-III).
PENALTY—[a-d] Dead-ball foul: Five yards from the succeeding spot. [S7
and S19 or S20].
Offensive Team Requirements—At the Snap
ARTICLE 4. Violation of each of the following (a-c) is a live-ball foul; the play
is allowed to continue.
a. Formation. At the snap Team A must be in a formation that meets these
requirements:
1. All players must be inbounds.
2. All players must be either linemen or backs (Rule 2-27-4).
3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation, par. 5
below.)
4. No more than four players may be backs.
5. In a scrimmage kick formation at the snap (Rule 2-16-10) Team A may
have fewer than five linemen numbered 50-79, subject to the following
conditions:
(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible
receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule
when the snapper is established.
(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the line
and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A commits a
foul for an illegal formation.
(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule
throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless they
become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched by an
official or a Team B player).
The conditions in 5(a)–5(c) are no longer in effect if prior to the snap a
period ends or there is a timeout charged to the referee or one of the
teams.
b. Man in Motion.
1. One back may be in motion, but he may not be moving toward his
opponent’s goal line.
2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage
unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second
rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule
2-22-1-c).
c. Illegal Shift. At the snap, Team A may not execute an illegal shift (Rule 7-1-
2-a). (A.R. 7-1-3-I-III).
PENALTY [a-c]—Live-ball foul: Five yards from the previous spot [S19 or
S20]. For live-ball fouls occurring when or after the snap starts
during scrimmage kick plays other than field goal plays: Five
yards from the previous spot or five yards from the spot where
the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B (S18, S19, or S20).
Defensive Team Requirements
ARTICLE 5. The defensive team requirements are as follows:
a. Each of the following (1-5) is a dead ball foul. Officials should blow the
whistle and not allow the play to continue. After the ball is ready for play
and before the ball is snapped:
1. No player may touch the ball except when moved illegally as in Rule
7-1-3-a-1, nor may any player contact an opponent or in any other way
interfere with him.(A.R. 7-1-5-I-II).
2. No player may enter the neutral zone causing an offensive lineman to
react immediately or commit any other dead-ball offside foul (Rules
2-18-2 and 7-1-2-b-3-Exception) (A.R. 7-1-3-V and A.R. 7-1-5-III).
3. No player shall use words or signals that disconcert opponents when
they are preparing to put the ball in play. No player may call defensive
signals that simulate the sound or cadence of (or otherwise interfere
with) offensive starting signals.
FR-74 RULE 7 / SNAPPING AND PASSING THE BALL
4. Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line of
scrimmage may not make quick, abrupt or exaggerated actions that are
not part of normal defensive player movement (A.R. 7-1-5-IV).
5. No player may cross the neutral zone and without making contact
continue his charge toward any back.
PENALTY [1-5]—Dead-ball foul. Five yards from the succeeding spot [S18
or S21].
b. When the snap starts:
1. No player may be in or beyond the neutral zone at the snap.
2. All players must be inbounds.
PENALTY—Live-ball foul. Five yards from the previous spot [S18].
*****************
definition of the Neutral Zone......
SECTION 17. The Neutral Zone
ARTICLE 1. a. The neutral zone is the space between the two scrimmage lines
extended to the sidelines. Its width is equal to the length of the ball (Rule 2-21-2).
b. The neutral zone is established when the ball is ready for play and is resting on the
ground with its long axis at right angles to the scrimmage line and parallel to the
sidelines.
c. The neutral zone exists until there is a change of team possession, until a
scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone or until the ball is declared dead.
SECTION 18. Encroachment and Offside
Encroachment
ARTICLE 1. After the ball is ready for play, encroachment occurs when an offensive
player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates (hand
at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap (Exception: When the ball is
put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone).
Offside
ARTICLE 2. After the ball is ready for play, offside occurs (Rule 7-1-5) when a
defensive player:
a. Is in or beyond the neutral zone when the ball is legally snapped;
b. Contacts an opponent beyond the neutral zone before the ball is snapped;
c. Contacts the ball before it is snapped;
d. Threatens an offensive lineman, causing an immediate reaction, before the ball
is snapped (A.R. 7-1-3-V Note);
e. Crosses the neutral zone and charges toward a Team A back (A.R. 7-1-5-III);
or
f. Is not behind his restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked.
Offside occurs when one or more players of the kicking team are not behind their
restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked (Exception: The kicker and holder are not offside when they are beyond their restraining line) (Rule 6-1-2).
Starting With a Snap
ARTICLE 1. a. The ball shall be put in play by a legal snap unless the rules
provide for a legal free kick (A.R. 4-1-4-I and II).
PENALTY—Dead-ball foul. Five yards from the succeeding spot [S7 and
S19].
b. The ball may not be snapped in a side zone (Rule 2-31-6). If the starting
point for any scrimmage down is in a side zone, the ball shall be transferred
to the hash mark.
Shift and False Start
ARTICLE 2. a. Shift. After a huddle (Rule 2-14) or shift (Rule 2-22-1) and
before the snap, all Team A players must come to an absolute stop and remain
stationary in their positions for at least one full second before the ball is
snapped, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms (A.R. 7-1-2-I).
b. False Start. Each of the following is a false start by Team A if it occurs prior
to the snap after the ball is ready for play and all players are in scrimmage
formation:
1. Any movement by one or more players that simulates the start of a play.
2. The snapper moving to another position.
3. A restricted lineman (Rule 2-27-4) moving his hand(s) or making any
quick movement. [Exceptions: 1. It is not a false start if a Team A
lineman immediately reacts when threatened by a Team B player in the
neutral zone (Rule 7-1-5-a-2) (A.R. 7-1-3-V) 2. Rule 7-1-3-a-3].
4. An offensive player making any quick, jerky movement before the snap,
including but not limited to:
(a) A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick,
jerky motion in any direction.
(b) The snapper shifting or moving the ball, moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks.
(c) The quarterback making any quick, jerky movement that simulates
the beginning of a play.
(d) A back simulating receiving the ball by making any quick, jerky
movement that simulates the beginning of a play.
5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap
after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV).
Offensive Team Requirements—Prior to the Snap
ARTICLE 3. Each of the following (a-d) is a dead-ball foul. Officials should
blow the whistle and not allow the play to continue. After the ball is ready for
play and before it is snapped:
a. Snapper. The snapper (Rule 2-27-8):
1. May not move to a different position nor have any part of his body
beyond the neutral zone;
2. May not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the
start of a play;
3. May take his hand(s) off the ball, but only if this does not simulate the
start of a play.
b. Nine-Yard Marks.
1. Each Team A substitute must have been between the nine-yard marks.
Team A players who participated in the previous down must have been
between the nine-yard marks after the previous down and before the next
snap (A.R. 3-3-4-I).
2. All Team A players must have been between the nine-yard marks after a
charged team timeout, an injury timeout, a media timeout or the end of
a period.
c. Encroachment. Once the snapper is established no other Team A player may
be in or beyond the neutral zone [Exceptions: (1) Substitutes and departing
players; and (2) offensive players in a scrimmage kick formation who break the
neutral zone with their hand(s) to point at opponents].
d. False Start. No Team A player may commit a false start (Rule 7-1-2-b) or
contact an opponent (A.R. 7-1-3-III).
PENALTY—[a-d] Dead-ball foul: Five yards from the succeeding spot. [S7
and S19 or S20].
Offensive Team Requirements—At the Snap
ARTICLE 4. Violation of each of the following (a-c) is a live-ball foul; the play
is allowed to continue.
a. Formation. At the snap Team A must be in a formation that meets these
requirements:
1. All players must be inbounds.
2. All players must be either linemen or backs (Rule 2-27-4).
3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation, par. 5
below.)
4. No more than four players may be backs.
5. In a scrimmage kick formation at the snap (Rule 2-16-10) Team A may
have fewer than five linemen numbered 50-79, subject to the following
conditions:
(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible
receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule
when the snapper is established.
(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the line
and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A commits a
foul for an illegal formation.
(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule
throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless they
become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched by an
official or a Team B player).
The conditions in 5(a)–5(c) are no longer in effect if prior to the snap a
period ends or there is a timeout charged to the referee or one of the
teams.
b. Man in Motion.
1. One back may be in motion, but he may not be moving toward his
opponent’s goal line.
2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage
unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second
rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule
2-22-1-c).
c. Illegal Shift. At the snap, Team A may not execute an illegal shift (Rule 7-1-
2-a). (A.R. 7-1-3-I-III).
PENALTY [a-c]—Live-ball foul: Five yards from the previous spot [S19 or
S20]. For live-ball fouls occurring when or after the snap starts
during scrimmage kick plays other than field goal plays: Five
yards from the previous spot or five yards from the spot where
the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B (S18, S19, or S20).
Defensive Team Requirements
ARTICLE 5. The defensive team requirements are as follows:
a. Each of the following (1-5) is a dead ball foul. Officials should blow the
whistle and not allow the play to continue. After the ball is ready for play
and before the ball is snapped:
1. No player may touch the ball except when moved illegally as in Rule
7-1-3-a-1, nor may any player contact an opponent or in any other way
interfere with him.(A.R. 7-1-5-I-II).
2. No player may enter the neutral zone causing an offensive lineman to
react immediately or commit any other dead-ball offside foul (Rules
2-18-2 and 7-1-2-b-3-Exception) (A.R. 7-1-3-V and A.R. 7-1-5-III).
3. No player shall use words or signals that disconcert opponents when
they are preparing to put the ball in play. No player may call defensive
signals that simulate the sound or cadence of (or otherwise interfere
with) offensive starting signals.
FR-74 RULE 7 / SNAPPING AND PASSING THE BALL
4. Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line of
scrimmage may not make quick, abrupt or exaggerated actions that are
not part of normal defensive player movement (A.R. 7-1-5-IV).
5. No player may cross the neutral zone and without making contact
continue his charge toward any back.
PENALTY [1-5]—Dead-ball foul. Five yards from the succeeding spot [S18
or S21].
b. When the snap starts:
1. No player may be in or beyond the neutral zone at the snap.
2. All players must be inbounds.
PENALTY—Live-ball foul. Five yards from the previous spot [S18].
*****************
definition of the Neutral Zone......
SECTION 17. The Neutral Zone
ARTICLE 1. a. The neutral zone is the space between the two scrimmage lines
extended to the sidelines. Its width is equal to the length of the ball (Rule 2-21-2).
b. The neutral zone is established when the ball is ready for play and is resting on the
ground with its long axis at right angles to the scrimmage line and parallel to the
sidelines.
c. The neutral zone exists until there is a change of team possession, until a
scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone or until the ball is declared dead.
SECTION 18. Encroachment and Offside
Encroachment
ARTICLE 1. After the ball is ready for play, encroachment occurs when an offensive
player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates (hand
at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap (Exception: When the ball is
put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone).
Offside
ARTICLE 2. After the ball is ready for play, offside occurs (Rule 7-1-5) when a
defensive player:
a. Is in or beyond the neutral zone when the ball is legally snapped;
b. Contacts an opponent beyond the neutral zone before the ball is snapped;
c. Contacts the ball before it is snapped;
d. Threatens an offensive lineman, causing an immediate reaction, before the ball
is snapped (A.R. 7-1-3-V Note);
e. Crosses the neutral zone and charges toward a Team A back (A.R. 7-1-5-III);
or
f. Is not behind his restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked.
Offside occurs when one or more players of the kicking team are not behind their
restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked (Exception: The kicker and holder are not offside when they are beyond their restraining line) (Rule 6-1-2).
I want to hear from someone who has coached linemen and centers (not name Flood). Or I want to hear from centers who were taught some tricks about the snap.
Clearly the center can rotate the ball to get a nice grip where the laces will end up correctly for the QB. But moving the ball forward?
Is this taught as a way to gain some advantage? You know, the way that HOLDING (and how to best get away with it) is taught.
Clearly the center can rotate the ball to get a nice grip where the laces will end up correctly for the QB. But moving the ball forward?
Is this taught as a way to gain some advantage? You know, the way that HOLDING (and how to best get away with it) is taught.
Skillet and 'Ol - glad you guys "got this one." You sure posted a lot of information, most of which is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but hey, quantity over quality - it works sometimes.
There are two points I take from all this information:
1)"a. Snapper. The snapper (Rule 2-27-8):
1. May not move to a different position nor have any part of his body
beyond the neutral zone;
2. May not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the
start of a play;"
#2 is clearly not enforced when the center moved the ball. Why? This is just a guess, but the rule is enforced after the offense is "set". After the offense is set, whether the center has moved the ball or not, if he moves the ball again, or even twitches, he is called for a foul. So clearly, the rule is enforced after a particular time and not before.
"5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap
after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)."
2) Nothing you have posted indicates any advantage to the offense. Here is what actually happens mechanically. The center takes his position. He takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not. No one has provided any evidence that this is not true. The rest of the offensive players then line up on the center, including the person who is to receive the snap. If the center then moves the ball forward, no one's position is changed. The result is that the person who receives the snap is in the same position they would be whether the center moves the ball forward or not. Therefore there is no advantage as the play actually starts from where the person who receives the snap is located and the center does not change the future LOS by moving the ball. The future LOS is determined by the results of the play, or replaced at the original LOS if the play is unsuccessful (incomplete pass). The only argument that anyone has made that explains why this is an advantage was Thinking's statement that because the center is moving the ball forward he lines up farther forward and therefore everyone else lines up farther forward, too. The only way this could be true (according to all those rules you posted) is if the center would normally line up behind the LOS if he was not going to move the ball forward. The rules you posted require 2 things; a) 7 players must line up ON the LOS, whether or not the center moves the ball (not in front of it or behind it). b) since the ball defines the neutral zone, the center can be in the neutral zone because he has to grip the ball to snap it. Still no advantage.
Finally, does the center really move the ball forward, or does he just tilt it up on its end so that what was the back end of the ball ends up on the ground on the spot where the front end of the ball was? If this is the case, the ball has not moved forward at all and this discussion is moot.
There are two points I take from all this information:
1)"a. Snapper. The snapper (Rule 2-27-8):
1. May not move to a different position nor have any part of his body
beyond the neutral zone;
2. May not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the
start of a play;"
#2 is clearly not enforced when the center moved the ball. Why? This is just a guess, but the rule is enforced after the offense is "set". After the offense is set, whether the center has moved the ball or not, if he moves the ball again, or even twitches, he is called for a foul. So clearly, the rule is enforced after a particular time and not before.
"5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap
after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)."
2) Nothing you have posted indicates any advantage to the offense. Here is what actually happens mechanically. The center takes his position. He takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not. No one has provided any evidence that this is not true. The rest of the offensive players then line up on the center, including the person who is to receive the snap. If the center then moves the ball forward, no one's position is changed. The result is that the person who receives the snap is in the same position they would be whether the center moves the ball forward or not. Therefore there is no advantage as the play actually starts from where the person who receives the snap is located and the center does not change the future LOS by moving the ball. The future LOS is determined by the results of the play, or replaced at the original LOS if the play is unsuccessful (incomplete pass). The only argument that anyone has made that explains why this is an advantage was Thinking's statement that because the center is moving the ball forward he lines up farther forward and therefore everyone else lines up farther forward, too. The only way this could be true (according to all those rules you posted) is if the center would normally line up behind the LOS if he was not going to move the ball forward. The rules you posted require 2 things; a) 7 players must line up ON the LOS, whether or not the center moves the ball (not in front of it or behind it). b) since the ball defines the neutral zone, the center can be in the neutral zone because he has to grip the ball to snap it. Still no advantage.
Finally, does the center really move the ball forward, or does he just tilt it up on its end so that what was the back end of the ball ends up on the ground on the spot where the front end of the ball was? If this is the case, the ball has not moved forward at all and this discussion is moot.
