MSU center moves the ball forward before the snap...

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

2) Nothing you have posted indicates any advantage to the offense.

Geez, oldtimer, you are high maintenance.

You asked for a response on whether the center is offsides... and yes, technically he can line up offsides if he takes some weird positions where his helmet is beyond the ball.

But everything else is a question of how the refs call a game.. whether any advantage is gained by moving the ball.

The ball length acts as the neutral zone.

Only the center can be in the neutral zone.

If the center moves the ball forward, he is, in effect, advancing the position of the neutral zone.

If the D is allowed to line up where the ref called the LOS, even if the center advances the ball forward pre-snap.. which places the D in the neutral zone.. if the linesmen call that encroachment then an advantage was gained.

Id the D make no adjustment to the ball and the linesmen do not care that they are now lined up over the ball.. then no advantage is gained.

If the D adjusts to where the center moves the ball and line up on that ball.. then an advantage was gained.

What happens the most in real life, in actual practice, is that some of the D line up before the center moves the ball and some line up after. Some will line up where the flags tell them the LOS is and some will line up on the ball.. both before and after the center moves it.

Since this never seems to be called... SOME of the D are at a disadvantage.

It is a pretty clear case.

NOW.. if both teams' centers move the ball forward.. then it is a wash.

 

[SkilletHead2]

Skillet and 'Ol - glad you guys "got this one." You sure posted a lot of information, most of which is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but hey, quantity over quality - it works sometimes.

There are two points I take from all this information:
1)"a. Snapper. The snapper (Rule 2-27-8):
1. May not move to a different position nor have any part of his body
beyond the neutral zone;
2. May not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the
start of a play;"
#2 is clearly not enforced when the center moved the ball. Why? This is just a guess, but the rule is enforced after the offense is "set". After the offense is set, whether the center has moved the ball or not, if he moves the ball again, or even twitches, he is called for a foul. So clearly, the rule is enforced after a particular time and not before.
"5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap
after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)."
2) Nothing you have posted indicates any advantage to the offense. Here is what actually happens mechanically. The center takes his position. He takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not. No one has provided any evidence that this is not true. The rest of the offensive players then line up on the center, including the person who is to receive the snap. If the center then moves the ball forward, no one's position is changed. The result is that the person who receives the snap is in the same position they would be whether the center moves the ball forward or not. Therefore there is no advantage as the play actually starts from where the person who receives the snap is located and the center does not change the future LOS by moving the ball. The future LOS is determined by the results of the play, or replaced at the original LOS if the play is unsuccessful (incomplete pass). The only argument that anyone has made that explains why this is an advantage was Thinking's statement that because the center is moving the ball forward he lines up farther forward and therefore everyone else lines up farther forward, too. The only way this could be true (according to all those rules you posted) is if the center would normally line up behind the LOS if he was not going to move the ball forward. The rules you posted require 2 things; a) 7 players must line up ON the LOS, whether or not the center moves the ball (not in front of it or behind it). b) since the ball defines the neutral zone, the center can be in the neutral zone because he has to grip the ball to snap it. Still no advantage.

Finally, does the center really move the ball forward, or does he just tilt it up on its end so that what was the back end of the ball ends up on the ground on the spot where the front end of the ball was? If this is the case, the ball has not moved forward at all and this discussion is moot.

oldtimer, Are you just deliberately ignoring what we are saying for the fun of it?

I have said repeatedly, as has Thinking and Good 'Ol, the center sometimes lines up in advance of where he would normally, and then moves the ball forward before the snap in order to take his natural stance. The rest of the line lines up based on where the center is. This gives the offense a slight advantage. It could be helpful if there is a measurement.

Sometimes he does just tilt the ball, but clearly sometimes he grabs the ball, and in the motion of tilting it back, picks it up and moves it forward. Since the ball defines the LOS, that moves the LOS forward as much as he has moved it. It's against the rules, but they let guys get away with it. If the entire offense sets up six inches forward from where it would without moving the ball, then a six inch advantage is gained. Many, perhaps most, measurements are within that range.

You seem to be hung up on whether the offense is "set" or not. But the o-line lines up on where the center lines up (I used to be an o-lineman back in the day). If he is forward six inches, sets, and then picks up the ball and moves it forward six inches to get his natural snapping position, then a six-inch advantage is gained over where he would normally be allowed to be. That's all.

You are simply wrong when you say he takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not. The center's stance is what doesn't change. Depending on the play (snap direct to QB or snap in shotgun), he takes the same stance. That stance starts with how far back from the ball he sets his feet. If he is closer to the ball than he needs for his stance, he'll move it forward to get his stance. And we see centers do just this. The only question is whether they are doing it deliberately, or whether they "accidentally" set their feet wrong on a regular basis.

 

[oldtimer67]

oldtimer, Are you just deliberately ignoring what we are saying for the fun of it?

I have said repeatedly, as has Thinking and Good 'Ol, the center sometimes lines up in advance of where he would normally, and then moves the ball forward before the snap in order to take his natural stance. The rest of the line lines up based on where the center is. This gives the offense a slight advantage. It could be helpful if there is a measurement.

Sometimes he does just tilt the ball, but clearly sometimes he grabs the ball, and in the motion of tilting it back, picks it up and moves it forward. Since the ball defines the LOS, that moves the LOS forward as much as he has moved it. It's against the rules, but they let guys get away with it. If the entire offense sets up six inches forward from where it would without moving the ball, then a six inch advantage is gained. Many, perhaps most, measurements are within that range.

You seem to be hung up on whether the offense is "set" or not. But the o-line lines up on where the center lines up (I used to be an o-lineman back in the day). If he is forward six inches, sets, and then picks up the ball and moves it forward six inches to get his natural snapping position, then a six-inch advantage is gained over where he would normally be allowed to be. That's all.

You are simply wrong when you say he takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not. The center's stance is what doesn't change. Depending on the play (snap direct to QB or snap in shotgun), he takes the same stance. That stance starts with how far back from the ball he sets his feet. If he is closer to the ball than he needs for his stance, he'll move it forward to get his stance. And we see centers do just this. The only question is whether they are doing it deliberately, or whether they "accidentally" set their feet wrong on a regular basis.

final comment: if the ball defines the LOS after it is moved, then football is a different game than what I learned. do they move the LOS markers on the sideline too?
Also, the defense can see the ball where it is placed by the official and they can also see the down marker on the sideline. They know where the LOS and the neutral zone are. They do not need the center to tell them. There is nothing in the rules or elsewhere that prevents the DLine from taking their positions before the center does. So, if the defense is in position correctly and the center moves the ball forward are they now in the neutral zone? They would be if the center can change the LOS. Ever seen it called?

 

[RUtix4me]

final comment: if the ball defines the LOS after it is moved, then football is a different game than what I learned. do they move the LOS markers on the sideline too?

Actually the world also rotates and the latitude where Piscataway is results in a rotational speed of around 650mph where we are. Assume we move 65 miles every 10 minutes or 3.25 miles every 30 seconds, and the average play takes 30 seconds yeh. By my calculation the line off scrimmage moves just over tad over 3.25 miles every snap based on the msu center mover the ball and inch or two.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2546864/How-fast-YOU-spinning-Earths-axis.html

 

[_dave_]

I just have one question for those that don't think it's an advantage. Why do we never see a center move the ball backwards while lining up if the LOS stays the same?

Of course he is adding a few inches to a foot to his team's benefit. It's common and never called, which is why it's so common.

 

[SkilletHead2]

final comment: if the ball defines the LOS after it is moved, then football is a different game than what I learned. do they move the LOS markers on the sideline too?
Also, the defense can see the ball where it is placed by the official and they can also see the down marker on the sideline. They know where the LOS and the neutral zone are. They do not need the center to tell them. There is nothing in the rules or elsewhere that prevents the DLine from taking their positions before the center does. So, if the defense is in position correctly and the center moves the ball forward are they now in the neutral zone? They would be if the center can change the LOS. Ever seen it called?

Have I ever seen offside called against the defense for lining up in the neutral zone? Yep, gets called all the time. Look at the ref who calls it. Is he looking at where the chain team guys have placed the sideline marker? Nope. He's got his back to that. He's looking at the ball. That simple.

 

[oldtimer67]

An internet search produced the following on the subject of the center moving the ball before the snap. Both HS and College are included:


"In high school football, can the center in football move the ball on the ground before snapping it?

No. Adjustment appears to be legal when the ball is lifted for lateral rotation*, but nothing else. Once this adjustment is completed, any further adjustment is illegal†.

*Rule 7, Section 1, Article 2 of the 2014 NFHS Rules (page 58) (the most recent I can find) states:

The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right angles to the line of scrimmage.


College Football official:

The old rule used to be the snapper could not raise the ball more than a 45 degree angle before snapping the ball. That rule was changed many years ago, The snapper is not to move the ball except for a smooth slow adjustment, not to simulate the start of a play. I know exactly what you are seeing. Actually, it is not a live ball. You could make a good technical argument that the movement of the ball is a snap infraction, which is a dead ball foul. We as officials tell the snapper not to move the ball. I have observed the same movements of the ball as you have. So long as the movement of the ball is a mere adjustment and as long as it is not simulating the start of the play or as long as it does not cause the defense to react, we permit the movement. However, we do warn the snappers to cease such movements when we observe it."

 

[Ruthinking]

Skillet and 'Ol - glad you guys "got this one." You sure posted a lot of information, most of which is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but hey, quantity over quality - it works sometimes.

There are two points I take from all this information:
1)"a. Snapper. The snapper (Rule 2-27-8):
1. May not move to a different position nor have any part of his body
beyond the neutral zone;
2. May not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the
start of a play;"
#2 is clearly not enforced when the center moved the ball. Why? This is just a guess, but the rule is enforced after the offense is "set". After the offense is set, whether the center has moved the ball or not, if he moves the ball again, or even twitches, he is called for a foul. So clearly, the rule is enforced after a particular time and not before.
"5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap
after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)."
2) Nothing you have posted indicates any advantage to the offense. Here is what actually happens mechanically. The center takes his position. He takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not. No one has provided any evidence that this is not true. The rest of the offensive players then line up on the center, including the person who is to receive the snap. If the center then moves the ball forward, no one's position is changed. The result is that the person who receives the snap is in the same position they would be whether the center moves the ball forward or not. Therefore there is no advantage as the play actually starts from where the person who receives the snap is located and the center does not change the future LOS by moving the ball. The future LOS is determined by the results of the play, or replaced at the original LOS if the play is unsuccessful (incomplete pass). The only argument that anyone has made that explains why this is an advantage was Thinking's statement that because the center is moving the ball forward he lines up farther forward and therefore everyone else lines up farther forward, too. The only way this could be true (according to all those rules you posted) is if the center would normally line up behind the LOS if he was not going to move the ball forward. The rules you posted require 2 things; a) 7 players must line up ON the LOS, whether or not the center moves the ball (not in front of it or behind it). b) since the ball defines the neutral zone, the center can be in the neutral zone because he has to grip the ball to snap it. Still no advantage.

Finally, does the center really move the ball forward, or does he just tilt it up on its end so that what was the back end of the ball ends up on the ground on the spot where the front end of the ball was? If this is the case, the ball has not moved forward at all and this discussion is moot.

I'll try one more post to attempt to make you understand what we are saying.
You say...(a quote from your post)
The center takes his position. He takes the same position whether he is going to move the ball or not.

This is where we disagree with you. We are saying the opposite. The center does not take the same position...he takes a position that is closer to the LOS...and then moves the ball forward. (The MSU moved the ball forward every time...not sometimes). Then the whole team lines up according to the center who is closer to the LOS. Don't go looking at the rules or the definition of the LOS...or the side marker...or whether it's legal...or whether we have evidence or not...or whether it's been called or not...or whether he's offsides...or whether the defense is in the neutral zone. Just look at what some centers do to gain inches on every play.

(My next post on this topic will be in all CAPS)

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

College Football official:

The old rule used to be the snapper could not raise the ball more than a 45 degree angle before snapping the ball. That rule was changed many years ago, The snapper is not to move the ball except for a smooth slow adjustment, not to simulate the start of a play. I know exactly what you are seeing. Actually, it is not a live ball. You could make a good technical argument that the movement of the ball is a snap infraction, which is a dead ball foul. We as officials tell the snapper not to move the ball. I have observed the same movements of the ball as you have. So long as the movement of the ball is a mere adjustment and as long as it is not simulating the start of the play or as long as it does not cause the defense to react, we permit the movement. However, we do warn the snappers to cease such movements when we observe it."

Geez... oldtimer.. that quote and many of the rules we have referenced in our posts refer to simulating a snap. "general" movement and handling of the ball.

This whole thread is about a center moving the ball FORWARD.

After he does this he begins all the tilting of the ball and while he is set, with his tilted ball, then begins all the possibilities of movement to simulate a snap to draw the D offsides. The refs are generally on top of that.. the linesmen are staring down the LOS to the ball at that time and, once the OL is set, any movement is noticeable. And if they miss it or are unsure, the opposing DL will begin jumping up and down and pointing at any offender.

But this entire thread is about a center moving the ball forward 6 inches to a foot.. thereby moving the virtual LOS forward, gaining ground. No one is saying a center turning the ball over or tilting it gains an unfair advantage for the team.. they all do it.. we all want a center/qb snap to go well or the game will be very ugly. They should get a good grip on it.

But moving the ball forward before they get the grip.. that's playground stuff.. like Tony Romo tried here..