N NJ HS Football Pub vs Non Public chaos
- Thread starter Abro1975
- Start date
The publics do not dominate almost any sport anymore. In Football it's the Bergen Parochials plus newcomer DePaul. In hoops it's been for a while now (boys) St Anthonys, St Pats (now the Patrick school), newcomer Roselle Catholic and some others. In Baseball it's Seton Hall Prep, Gloucester Catholice (a Powerhouse!) and Bergen Parohcials. In wrestling now Bergen Catholic, Don Bosco,and newcomer DePaul. I'm guessing Red Bank C and St John Vianney, along w Pope John will join the Parochial arms race soon. Not sure what Immaculata, and Camden C are planning for Football.
The trend is Undeniable.
This post was edited on 3/22 12:52 PM by Abro1975
The trend is Undeniable.
This post was edited on 3/22 12:52 PM by Abro1975
the issue seems that the privates can recruit kids outside of a region while the publics are limited to a town. It may make sense to create some regional private school conferences or at least divisions within a conference. If you remember Savon Huggins commuted an hour each way to go to high school.
You have schools that dominate football, wrestling, basketball, or other sports. Many of the Catholics have a common mission with education and the rivalries may be good.
A division in North NJ of:
- St Peters
- St Anthony's (hoops / baseball)
- Hudson Cathlolic
- Don Bosco
- Passaic Catholic
- St Joes Montvale
- Paramus Catholic
- others in Hudson, Bergen, and Passaic County that may not be as good.
You can do another division for the Essex, Union, and Somerset County privates.
Another can work with the Middlesex, Monmouth, and Mercer Privates
Then you have the South Jersey counties
You have schools that dominate football, wrestling, basketball, or other sports. Many of the Catholics have a common mission with education and the rivalries may be good.
A division in North NJ of:
- St Peters
- St Anthony's (hoops / baseball)
- Hudson Cathlolic
- Don Bosco
- Passaic Catholic
- St Joes Montvale
- Paramus Catholic
- others in Hudson, Bergen, and Passaic County that may not be as good.
You can do another division for the Essex, Union, and Somerset County privates.
Another can work with the Middlesex, Monmouth, and Mercer Privates
Then you have the South Jersey counties
Folks this is a "problem" here in Southern Cal as well ,especially in Orange County. The Pac5 conference is one of the top in the state but schools like Mission Viejo have moved to another conference primarily due to having to play against the Tinity league which has teams like Mater Dei and St. John Bosco and not keep ing up. A new school was added to that league 10 years ago which was a few miles from Mission and they are now a top program in the state. It's easy to see that the private schools just take the best in the area and the publics are no match in the long run. Look at the CIF champion for the past 10 years, all Catholoc schools. In CA publics and privates play against each other for the title.
You're not answering the fundamental question. Why does Seton Hall Prep want to play SPP, Bosco, BC, Joes and PC? They are hardly a football power. Why should they volunteer to play those 5 teams when their is no historical precedent and make no geographic sense. And if you do force them to play them, do you think they will just sit by and get their heads kciked in or will them use their massive endowment to get better players?
You can't make legislation to stop a problem with 5 schools in one or two sports.
The argument can't shift all over the place to St. Anthony's is good in basketball. Seton Hall Prep is good in baseball. Delbarton is good in hockey. Glouchester Catholic is good in baseball. So therefore ALL catholic schools recruit in ALL sports and they should only play in each other. Why would Pope John in Sparta want to travel to Jersey City on a Tuesday in December for a bowling match?
Clifton has 3,400 kids in the school. If they can't find 45 to field a medicore football team, they need to look within, not out at Bosco. Passaic Tech has the same ability to draw across multiple towns. There are 2,800+ kids in the school. They can't field a team that is competitive with Depaul? If not, why not?
No. It's about a level playing field. Schools like the aforementioned publics are limited geographically in who can play for them.Catholics recruit the whole state. Leonte Carroo came all the way from Edison to play for Bosco. Someone on the board posted many years ago that a Coach Hansen used to travel all the way to red bank to pick up Eric "Choo Choo" McCoo. Savon came from Jackson to play for SPP. How is it fair that publics, who have maybe 1 Div I1A kid in any given year, if they're lucky, have to face Parochials with multiple Div 1A kids. The Parochials are essentially all star teams, whose kids have been cherry picked. It's like the lions vs. the Christians out there, and in this context, the Christians are the public schools.
The county vo-techs are a bit of a different animal. They have a pretty objective admissions process and while they are a county 'magnet' school, their main draw is students interested in their specific curriculum, not sports or the opportunity to further your athletic career through a higher level of exposure. Students also have the opportunity to play sports at tech or their home district. Many county techs only offer limited sports (the Essex county campuses don't play football). Sports tend to be pretty much secondary or even tetiary with maybe a couple of exceptions.
Joe P.
Joe P.
Can't speak for others but that's not the case with Passaic County Tech. First, their campus is ridiculous and looks more like a college than a HS. Second, they have a lot of kids there hoping to go to college and it's a place where parents who don't want their kids at Eastside or Kennedy look to.
PCT has made more of an athletics investment over the past 15 years. They are fortunate to be able to draw from a number of huge towns/ small cities as well (Paterson, Wayne, Passaic, Clifton, etc.). Their investment in athletics seems greater than most Techs. Bergen has top-notch facilities but sports are not a primary focus. Essex has multiple campuses that play bball and smaller sports. You never hear of Hudson, Middlesex, Morris etc doing much of anything. I know in football Bergen Tech is generally a 3-6 win team that usually gets blasted by the bigger publics, nevermind parochials.
Joe P.
Joe P.
And what is the geographical territory for most of the non-publics? How are they supposed to get kids to attend their schools? Most of the examples you give with SPP or Carroo are just for the small number of kids. I believe Hansen lives in the Jackson area. That is why he drives kids to SPP or picks them up on the way. What's wrong with giving kids an experience they may not have at their local school. How fair is it that the best kids in my town move to towns like Wyckoff to play for Ramapo? Or Brandon Jacobs bringing his nephew to play for Wayne Hills?
Also, how fair is it to make SJR and DePaul play against SPP, DBP, BC and PC potentially multiple times? SJR is only half the size of those schools. Granted they complete well against the bigger boys, but they don't have the depth. That is why playing schools like Ramapo and Wayne Hills made sense. It's not like the non-publics are playing the worst public teams. How fair is it when Ramapo and Wayne Hills destroy other publics? Are those teams going tor forfeit as well? There needs to be a solution to allow the non-publics to not have to travel all over the state for a bowling match.
This post was edited on 3/22 7:50 PM by Section124
Exactly. Savon was a bit of an extreme case. And Hansen lives in Freehold. But I graduated SPP with a kid who lived in Spring Lake. He was a legacy and the captain of the Math team and acted in school plays. You think there would be a lot of posts about him on internet forums and social media these days? Families choose alternate methods of educating their kids every day because they thing it is right for them. That decision may be about academics, environment, religion, and yes athletics. Why a de-facto arm of the state has jurisdiction over where a kid goes to school and what activities he participates in, is absurd.
The underlying sentiment that public schools own the rights to kids who played in their rec programs is more demented than SPP laying an 80 point beating on Kearny.
If there are legit safety concerns in terms of depth, then relief should be granted. Kearny shouldn't have to play SPP because they only have about 30 kids in the program, not because they aren't any good.
And there may not be a secret sauce as to what these 4 or 5 schools do, there is a small matter of executing. Many food chemists have figured out Coke's recipe. Go launch a cola brand and get back to me with your results. If it was a matter of commitment and money, SPP would have more titles than 4 in the last 30 years.
When Wayne Hills, one of the BEST public programs in the state in the last 30+ years, wants to back out of games with Depaul or Joes, because they want to preserve their record, there is a bad message being sent. Life isn't "fair." You're not always presented with an equal playing field. Go win your group state championship.
This post was edited on 3/23 7:29 AM by ruhudsonfan
This post was edited on 3/23 7:30 AM by ruhudsonfan
There are enough Parochial/Non Public schools in the state of NJ, not to mention nearby NYC/Phil/Del/ NE Pa, to make several Parochial/NonPublic conferences with 8 game schedules. They can fill out their schedules with the larger publics who CHOOSE to play them in NonConference games. Other states have figured this dynamic out. NJ will eventually catch up.
School size for Non Parochials have nothing to do with it. St Anthonys in JC has been a national power for decades with a tiny, tiny school population, St Pats and now Roselle C as well.. DePaul is not huge, has built FB & Wrestling into a power. The Group 3 NON PUB playoffs in FB was a joke this year with blowouts.
In Football it's about safety, somewhat, but more about competitive balance. I think the swtich to Non Pub conferences is 2 years away. Another proposal/ vote is coming in several months (read the OP link), I doubt it will pass, but the issue will linger and linger, until the open sore needs to be treated.
School size for Non Parochials have nothing to do with it. St Anthonys in JC has been a national power for decades with a tiny, tiny school population, St Pats and now Roselle C as well.. DePaul is not huge, has built FB & Wrestling into a power. The Group 3 NON PUB playoffs in FB was a joke this year with blowouts.
In Football it's about safety, somewhat, but more about competitive balance. I think the swtich to Non Pub conferences is 2 years away. Another proposal/ vote is coming in several months (read the OP link), I doubt it will pass, but the issue will linger and linger, until the open sore needs to be treated.
the toughest thing to figure out is the recruiting and how to make that work. How to identify and woo youth football players, or come up with a more innovative strategy like PC and poach other programs players. Just get the athletes in the door and keep them there. That is admittedly difficult. But, everything beyond that is trivial in comparison.
This post was edited on 3/23 7:50 AM by Jonas Grumby
This post was edited on 3/23 7:50 AM by Jonas Grumby
This. Wayne Hills had no issue running up the score during the Olsen years and the parents who are concerned for their kids are even bigger hypocrites. The Wayne Hills feeder program got kicked out of its league because they were constantly running up the score.
A
anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy
Guest
When I was in High School, we had a very dominant public program in North Jersey, won 5 of 7 state championships in a 7 year span. We tried to schedule some team from Ohio who is also notorious for running our same system (wing-t) but they wanted nothing to do with us. We are a fairly wealthy school district and we had the money to even travel to them.
I think these schools from other states just want nothing to do with Jersey Football because they like to say that their state is so great and year in and year out they get exposed when playing jerseys best.
I think these schools from other states just want nothing to do with Jersey Football because they like to say that their state is so great and year in and year out they get exposed when playing jerseys best.
And don't be just one "thing" either.
I know a lot of guys from RBC, CBA, BC, SPP, St. Joe's (both of them) and throw in Roselle Catholic who are doing very well in life. Some were on teams but most weren't.
But being originally from JC I know I should know some (or of) from St. Anthony's that fit the bill (and I know they exist) but I can't think of any off hand.
But that is really the crux of the issue. SPP has more money that any other Catholic shool in the state not named Delbarton. We've won 4 football titles in 30 years. Year in and year out, we have the best players. We have one of the best practice facilities in the state. We have a D3 college level weight room. We have players participating in private, out of season personal training. We have everything any school can aspire to. But we don't win titles with any consistency. The logical explanation is the coach. Fair enough. But other than Karcich, Toal and MAYBE 2 or 3 others, what HS in NJ WOULDN'T want Hansen as their HC? None. They all would. Because he was won 85% of his games in a 30 year career.
SPP has 3 programs that are consistently in the Top 10 in NJ--football, wrestling and volleyball. Basketball was at that level and lost 2 coaches in a 3 year span due to professional commitments and family lifestyle (last guy had a baby). Now we are back to the basement in the county, let alone the state. Hockey is a top 20 program. Baseball is wildly inconsistent. One year we are in the Top 5, the next year won't even be ranked. The point remains. SPP has the money. They have the institutional commitment. In nearly every sport (except baseball) we have the best facilities. But we don't win at the level of certain schools in certain sports.
It's not as easy as copying a winning formula. For example, SPP won't make academic concessions for kids. You do the work, or you're out. They aren't moving kids in with asst. coaches or friends of the program. They aren't poaching other program's upperclassmen. And truth be told, 99% of other programs won't do that either. Recruiting kids that are 7th and 8th graders? Sure. The whole school is "recruited" and at SPP 75+% receive some form of financial aid. But plenty of studs that didn't want to toe the line have left.
BUt you still haven't made the case about WHY it is necessary. Because of 4 schools?
Let's look at the competitive balance of all of NJ. Bad programs are bad. It's ok for Wayne Hills to hang 60 on "insert public school here" but is somehow categorically unfair for Bosco to hang 60 on Wayne Hills?
Explain the logic to me.
This is all a by-product of what I call the Barringer-Nutley rule which was the ultimate downfall of the NNJIL. They pissed and moaned about being throttled by the 98 BC team until they ultimately forced the break-up of the league. Guess what? approaching 20 years later, they both STILL SUCK at football...they just get beaten by someone else now.
I think Hudson has made some excellent points the last few posts (and as an old NNJIL guy I also miss the Atlantic/ Pacific format) but I have to say that it's almost undeniable that Nutley and Paramus have both greatly benefitted from the league's breakup. While Nutley hasn't won a sectional title since '92, they've become a much more consistent winner/ playoff team since the formation of the SEC and actually won their division for the first time in over 30 years this past season (and as a 'Belleville guy' it's not like I go out of my way to cheer for the Raiders). Paramus was basically a 'never was' in the NNJIL and has since become a perennial playoff team (they actually played/ beat Nutley in the playoffs last year) and conference/ division champion.
As stilted as the competition has become, I just can't really support forfeitting. I'd like to think that there could be a happy medium in football/ wrestling, such as maybe REALLY clamping down on transfers/ making it more difficult to school-hop for athletics. Ultimately a lot of winning boils down to the kids, coaching and commitment. How can East Orange Campus, a school that doesn't have the resources of say Montclair or West Essex, compete relatively consistently while peer-group schools like Belleville, Fair Lawn and Passaic struggle to win more than 1-2 games a year even after realignment? Belleville generally won more games in the much-tougher NNJIL than they do in the SEC's weakest division.
Joe P.
As stilted as the competition has become, I just can't really support forfeitting. I'd like to think that there could be a happy medium in football/ wrestling, such as maybe REALLY clamping down on transfers/ making it more difficult to school-hop for athletics. Ultimately a lot of winning boils down to the kids, coaching and commitment. How can East Orange Campus, a school that doesn't have the resources of say Montclair or West Essex, compete relatively consistently while peer-group schools like Belleville, Fair Lawn and Passaic struggle to win more than 1-2 games a year even after realignment? Belleville generally won more games in the much-tougher NNJIL than they do in the SEC's weakest division.
Joe P.
You make a good case for maybe why Hansen shouldn't be considered a top coach if year in and year out you have the best players and top level facilities. What percentage of those 85% of his games were due to all the inherent advantages you mention. Would he have won 85% of his games as the head coach of Union City or Jersey City over 30 years - especially if he had to play against schools with those advantages? It's like touting a D-1 coaches record who played 50% of his games against 1-AA schools. Maybe he is a great coach, but if his level of success against peer institutions is good but not great how would you really know.
But thats really beside the point. Maybe SPP was always a good program. Maybe BC has been good a long time, but it is definitely not an uncrackable code. Bosco, jealous of BCs success, did it when they decided they hired toal and put money into the program. PC recently did it.
Commit the resources, hire a good coach, go out an recruit aggressively and any parochial can compete. Sticking with beverages, it's more like a craft brewery than coca cola. Maybe you can't be Russian River, but if you hire or develop a brewer, put in the capital, and use good ingredients, you can put out a top flight product in a short period of time.
NJ is such a crazy regulated state. I have never heard of such a thing at the high school level.
New Parochial hoops power , Roselle 'AAU' Catholic beat public Group 1 Paulsboro in the Tournament of Champions hoops tourny 103-34 ! lol. Nice competitive balance there. They will match up again another newly emerged Parochial hoops power, Pope John , tonight live on NJcom.
And Roselle lost to public school Linden...TWICE.
Roselle has like 5 losses this year.
Hardly a vintage team in NJ history.
I don't know squat about Paulsboro basketball, but I do know they are not a fixture in the TOC. Maybe them being here is a fluke to begin with. Maybe it isn't. Either way, they won a state championship in their group. So when there are 6 teams left in the state, battling it out to be considered the best, what should we do? Tie the Roselle Catholic player's sneakers together? Only let Briscoe play 8 minutes?
Paulsboro is a Group 1, tiny , with a rich history in wrestling and football. How they made the TOC i don't know as I haven't been followong, But for a 70 point thrashing in the semi finals of the TOC, has to be cringe worthy for the NJSIAA with all the controversy going on about competitive Dis advantages and in balances currently swirling about. 70 Points point differential in a semi final TOC game ?
Regarding Roselle Catholic, here are my questions:
-How many of their juniors/seniors started there as freshmen? Heck, how many players on this year's team were there last year?
Kids seem to switch teams in non-public bball more times than a random group of kids playing pickup games at the playground.
Joe P.
-How many of their juniors/seniors started there as freshmen? Heck, how many players on this year's team were there last year?
Kids seem to switch teams in non-public bball more times than a random group of kids playing pickup games at the playground.
Joe P.
I know Paulsboro, obviously. I was saying that I dont know anything about their basketball program. My guess is, they got hot and made a run and are not in the class of a Linden, Newark Tech, Paterson Eastside or Teaneck. All public programs that beat parochial teams with regularity.
The last public to win the boys BB TOC was Camden , 15 years ago, before that it was Orange in 1994 I believe. Those aren't good odds for the Publics.
PS- What Public Football team was last to win the Star Ledger mythical number 1 in NJ ? I can' t find it. Maybe Middletown S when Knowshon Moreno was there? I don't know. NJSIAA site has a good historical records links. Can't find for Football overall number 1 by the SL.
PS- What Public Football team was last to win the Star Ledger mythical number 1 in NJ ? I can' t find it. Maybe Middletown S when Knowshon Moreno was there? I don't know. NJSIAA site has a good historical records links. Can't find for Football overall number 1 by the SL.
Who cares? Do you think those kids are at home crying to Mommy? It's like feeling bad for the Patriot League team that loses by 40 in round one of the tourney. It's a great experience and one they will remember for eternity. Next year, when those kids are watching the tourney with their new teammates at Moravian they'll be talking about how they played against that Freshmen at Kentucky or Duke. I kind of understand football because the smaller group schools offer legit safety concerns but schools like Hills and PCT are just big vaginas. Part of life is getting your ass kicked...it builds character. Have there been any on record complaints of Parochials purposely crushing publics? Running up scores late in games? I haven't heard of any......
Exactly.
Now we're concerned about making sure that an equal number of public schools win the trophy for the BEST team in the state?
WTF is going on here?
Here Johnny...we broke up Bosco and SPP's team...Here is your Star Ledger Top 20 Trophy.
Like I said. Kearny and Snyder shouldn't play SPP because they have low numbers, not because they stink. When a program like HIlls, a team that would absolutely make the short list of top 3 public programs in the last 25 years, wants to back out of games, it's because they don't want to take a loss. Not because they are afraid of their kids safety.
The only solution that doesn't include voluntary compliance by the parochials is one that includes aggressively investigating and hammering rule breakers. Other than that, the courts will force the publics to line up an play. The legal precedent has been established in the Bergen Catholic cases of the 70s and 80s. And these parochial schools have even deeper benches of alumni lawyers who love these schools enough to litigate these cases at little to no cost. The BC counsel has always been from the Giblin family, who are BC legends. SPP, Bosco and Delbarton have them too.
Just like other states have conferences have All Parochial conferences and all Public conferences, all parochial post season tournys , all public post season tournys, then a Tournament of Champions, colleges with Div 1, Div 2, Div 3, NAIA, etc, competive balance re structuring IS COMING to NJ, hell in Essex County it's already here with programs placed in Divisions according to strength of program. Cedar Grove is Group 1 Football and baseball, and most other boys sports, however it's strong girls softball program has been in it's strongest Div recently with Group 4s Montclair, West Orange etc
Competitive balance ,safety and public outcry is forcing this trend, Not Lawsuits. The above poster mentioned above Parochials will use their vast monetary resources (Giblin family , LOL?) to sue the pants off of somebody to force the Paterson Kennedy's to field a team to be steamrolled by Bergen Catholic ! LOL. That's a good one ! Maybe those resources can be better spent preventing the Mater Dei's , St Patricks and Paterson Catholics shutting their doors instead of building quasi Div 4
recruited sports teams.
Why do you think the issue is being brought up by Public coaches over and over and over again. Hell, Hansen (SPP) and Toal (DBP) even went to the NJSIAA to complain about Paramus C trying to recruit their Upper Classmen HS players ! Talk about poetic justice.
And if public Wayne Hills or Teaneck were recruiting players from nearby towns, then 2 wrongs don't equal 1 right. The NJSIAA has been severely handcuffed by it's fight with John Burzichelli. Wayne Valley should have made a better case of Wayne Hills playing shennanigans with addresses.
Now look at this years football schedules of Bergen C, DBP, St Joes , PC etc, a lot of out of state games, probably funded by the affluent alums, as mentioned by chest pounding poster above . THATS the future of scheduling (at least w football) fo the Division 4 Parochials. Not beating up on Kearny, Paterson Eastside, and Orange HS. The Diocese of Metuchen, Newark, Camden etc should be proud of the sports dynasties they have build, and not worry about Paterson C closing down or Mater Dei close to it. Priorities are important !
Competitive balance ,safety and public outcry is forcing this trend, Not Lawsuits. The above poster mentioned above Parochials will use their vast monetary resources (Giblin family , LOL?) to sue the pants off of somebody to force the Paterson Kennedy's to field a team to be steamrolled by Bergen Catholic ! LOL. That's a good one ! Maybe those resources can be better spent preventing the Mater Dei's , St Patricks and Paterson Catholics shutting their doors instead of building quasi Div 4
recruited sports teams.
Why do you think the issue is being brought up by Public coaches over and over and over again. Hell, Hansen (SPP) and Toal (DBP) even went to the NJSIAA to complain about Paramus C trying to recruit their Upper Classmen HS players ! Talk about poetic justice.
And if public Wayne Hills or Teaneck were recruiting players from nearby towns, then 2 wrongs don't equal 1 right. The NJSIAA has been severely handcuffed by it's fight with John Burzichelli. Wayne Valley should have made a better case of Wayne Hills playing shennanigans with addresses.
Now look at this years football schedules of Bergen C, DBP, St Joes , PC etc, a lot of out of state games, probably funded by the affluent alums, as mentioned by chest pounding poster above . THATS the future of scheduling (at least w football) fo the Division 4 Parochials. Not beating up on Kearny, Paterson Eastside, and Orange HS. The Diocese of Metuchen, Newark, Camden etc should be proud of the sports dynasties they have build, and not worry about Paterson C closing down or Mater Dei close to it. Priorities are important !
"And these parochial schools have even deeper benches of alumni lawyers who love these schools enough to litigate these cases at little to no cost. The BC counsel has always been from the Giblin family, who are BC legends. SPP, Bosco and Delbarton have them too. "
It looks like the Giblin family will have the chance now to flex their legal muscles and alums to open their checkbooks to fight the good fight.
From NorthJerseycom today:
The Big North United schools that were told they have to play some league opponents twice in football in the fall don't think the conference played fair. And it's possible they may decide to pick up their ball and play somewhere else.
"The United Division is united. That's all I'm going to say," St. Joseph athletic director Tony Karcich said Monday.
The decision, which came as a surprise last week, followed months of haggling and negotiations. Faced with the fact that four United public schools were threatening to forfeit their scheduled games to United non-public schools, the conference invoked a clause in its by-laws saying it would do what it felt was best for the group as a whole. And it gave Passaic Tech, Pascack Valley, Wayne Hills and Old Tappan the option to drop scheduled games with Don Bosco, DePaul and St. Joseph.
The conference then filled the new gaps in the schedule of the three non-public teams by saying they would have to play their fellow non-publics twice. Don Bosco is now scheduled to play St. Joseph twice, and DePaul is scheduled to play St. Joseph twice. The other two non-publics in the Big North United, Bergen Catholic and Paramus Catholic, have full schedules without a New Jersey public team included, so they were not impacted by the ruling.
Today in Atlantic City, the New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association's public/non-public committee will formally present its recommendations. The group has been meeting for months to work on solutions to the competitive imbalance between public and non-public football teams.
This imbalance is one facet of the issue that exists between the schools. Non-public school coaches and administrators acknowledge that games between publics and non-publics are not competitive on the scoreboard: Don Bosco beat Eastside, 56-6, last season, and North 1, Group 5 finalist Passaic Tech, 38-0. DePaul beat North 1, Group 4 champion Pascack Valley, 35-14. St. Joseph beat Old Tappan, 42-0, and Wayne Hills, 42-15.
But those who support the non-public schools point out that Old Tappan beat Tenafly, 37-0, and Demarest by 30 and 31 points in their two meetings. Pascack Valley beat Passaic Valley, 49-6. The supporters don't understand why it's acceptable for one public school to rout another, but unacceptable when a rout is administered by a non-public school.
"I think when public schools say to their kids you cannot compete, they do them a great disservice, [and] when the going gets tough, we are going to forfeit, I think that's the worst thing you can teach kids," Don Bosco principal John Stanczak said.
The counter to that argument is that public schools feel that the opponents don't start on equal footing. Non-public schools have an open enrollment policy, allowing them to attract quality players from multiple towns, counties and even states. Public schools are locked in to acquiring players from their geographic sending districts. The public schools say they aren't ducking the competition, but believe it's not a level playing field.
Non-public school administrators also are upset at the timing of the Big North's decision. Every New Jersey school is in what's called a two-year scheduling cycle, meaning its schedule in 2015 is the same as it was in 2014. Switching things around six months before the first game is unusual because of contracts and dates already set. But the public schools say they made their points clear months ago. Eastside was sending letters to Don Bosco last December about forfeiting their 2015 meeting.
I think to some degree the non-public schools feel puzzled in that the Big North has always seemed to take pride in their exploits - its victories out of state and state championships - which have given the entire league a reputation for excellence. Now they're essentially being told to go off on their own.
And maybe that's what they'll do. Leaving the NJSIAA has always been the last option any school wants to consider, but I'll bet it's on the table now. Sure, St. Benedict's in Newark has done it and managed to thrive, but it doesn't have a football team or the amount of sports that Don Bosco or Bergen Catholic do.
The St. Benedict's website lists 11 varsity sports; Don Bosco has 18. For Big North United schools, being independent in football is one thing; finding 20 or so independent baseball or basketball games every year is another.
Scheduling football games isn't easy for Big North United teams, either. No other team in New Jersey has stepped up consistently and agreed to play them - and that really is the only solution that would work.
United teams have incurred exorbitant costs traveling nationwide to find suitable games, but when you consider the rest of the country, the number of teams willing to play still is limited.
Right now the the Big North United is an island without many allies. Forgive the war analogy, but this is a battle that's far from over.
It looks like the Giblin family will have the chance now to flex their legal muscles and alums to open their checkbooks to fight the good fight.
From NorthJerseycom today:
The Big North United schools that were told they have to play some league opponents twice in football in the fall don't think the conference played fair. And it's possible they may decide to pick up their ball and play somewhere else.
"The United Division is united. That's all I'm going to say," St. Joseph athletic director Tony Karcich said Monday.
The decision, which came as a surprise last week, followed months of haggling and negotiations. Faced with the fact that four United public schools were threatening to forfeit their scheduled games to United non-public schools, the conference invoked a clause in its by-laws saying it would do what it felt was best for the group as a whole. And it gave Passaic Tech, Pascack Valley, Wayne Hills and Old Tappan the option to drop scheduled games with Don Bosco, DePaul and St. Joseph.
The conference then filled the new gaps in the schedule of the three non-public teams by saying they would have to play their fellow non-publics twice. Don Bosco is now scheduled to play St. Joseph twice, and DePaul is scheduled to play St. Joseph twice. The other two non-publics in the Big North United, Bergen Catholic and Paramus Catholic, have full schedules without a New Jersey public team included, so they were not impacted by the ruling.
Today in Atlantic City, the New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association's public/non-public committee will formally present its recommendations. The group has been meeting for months to work on solutions to the competitive imbalance between public and non-public football teams.
This imbalance is one facet of the issue that exists between the schools. Non-public school coaches and administrators acknowledge that games between publics and non-publics are not competitive on the scoreboard: Don Bosco beat Eastside, 56-6, last season, and North 1, Group 5 finalist Passaic Tech, 38-0. DePaul beat North 1, Group 4 champion Pascack Valley, 35-14. St. Joseph beat Old Tappan, 42-0, and Wayne Hills, 42-15.
But those who support the non-public schools point out that Old Tappan beat Tenafly, 37-0, and Demarest by 30 and 31 points in their two meetings. Pascack Valley beat Passaic Valley, 49-6. The supporters don't understand why it's acceptable for one public school to rout another, but unacceptable when a rout is administered by a non-public school.
"I think when public schools say to their kids you cannot compete, they do them a great disservice, [and] when the going gets tough, we are going to forfeit, I think that's the worst thing you can teach kids," Don Bosco principal John Stanczak said.
The counter to that argument is that public schools feel that the opponents don't start on equal footing. Non-public schools have an open enrollment policy, allowing them to attract quality players from multiple towns, counties and even states. Public schools are locked in to acquiring players from their geographic sending districts. The public schools say they aren't ducking the competition, but believe it's not a level playing field.
Non-public school administrators also are upset at the timing of the Big North's decision. Every New Jersey school is in what's called a two-year scheduling cycle, meaning its schedule in 2015 is the same as it was in 2014. Switching things around six months before the first game is unusual because of contracts and dates already set. But the public schools say they made their points clear months ago. Eastside was sending letters to Don Bosco last December about forfeiting their 2015 meeting.
I think to some degree the non-public schools feel puzzled in that the Big North has always seemed to take pride in their exploits - its victories out of state and state championships - which have given the entire league a reputation for excellence. Now they're essentially being told to go off on their own.
And maybe that's what they'll do. Leaving the NJSIAA has always been the last option any school wants to consider, but I'll bet it's on the table now. Sure, St. Benedict's in Newark has done it and managed to thrive, but it doesn't have a football team or the amount of sports that Don Bosco or Bergen Catholic do.
The St. Benedict's website lists 11 varsity sports; Don Bosco has 18. For Big North United schools, being independent in football is one thing; finding 20 or so independent baseball or basketball games every year is another.
Scheduling football games isn't easy for Big North United teams, either. No other team in New Jersey has stepped up consistently and agreed to play them - and that really is the only solution that would work.
United teams have incurred exorbitant costs traveling nationwide to find suitable games, but when you consider the rest of the country, the number of teams willing to play still is limited.
Right now the the Big North United is an island without many allies. Forgive the war analogy, but this is a battle that's far from over.
This (nj.com) article is what I think one of the main issues is; some of this stuff is beyond absurd and completely undermines not just the integrity of HS sports but of the main purpose of HS (education/ preparation for adult living).
Joe P.
This post was edited on 3/24 8:34 AM by JoeRU0304
NJ HS Basketball Transfer 'Epidemic'
Joe P.
This post was edited on 3/24 8:34 AM by JoeRU0304
NJ HS Basketball Transfer 'Epidemic'
I think you are all arguing the symptoms of a larger problem. These schools can recruit from all over, THAT is what makes it unfair. Who wants to go play a non-public school when their QB is from Orange, RB is from Newark, WR is from South Jersey and OL from Nyack, NY? While every kid on our team is from the same town. That's fair? Are you kidding me?
The NJ non-publics are so good because they have a limitless recruiting footprint. Follow California and reduce their recruiting footprint and this problem will shrink a ton.
Once again, I looked into this process for a family member a few years ago and I was appalled at what goes on and he wasn't even really being recruited by these coaches.
The NJ non-publics are so good because they have a limitless recruiting footprint. Follow California and reduce their recruiting footprint and this problem will shrink a ton.
Once again, I looked into this process for a family member a few years ago and I was appalled at what goes on and he wasn't even really being recruited by these coaches.
Abro,
I admire your tenacity but you continue to miss the point.
THis is how this will go, IF the catholics decide to litigate it.
You honor, Wayne hills has won XX number of sectional championships in football. They have a tremendous feeder program and just as many boys roaming their halls as we do. They won't play us because we are a Catholic school.
The judge will bang his little mallet and compel publics of similar numbers to play privates of similar numbers.
You can't exclude Catholics from a league BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC.
The case has already been litigated. what a conference decides to do doesn't mean it passes muster on a legal challenge.
Whether the Catholics decide to litigate or not remains to be seen. Maybe they'll take the high road. Maybe they won't.
But they won't be compelled to create new conferences, which make no geographic sense and have no tradition, becaue the AD at Pascack HIlls is pissed off his best wrestlers go to Bergen Catholic.
I admire your tenacity but you continue to miss the point.
THis is how this will go, IF the catholics decide to litigate it.
You honor, Wayne hills has won XX number of sectional championships in football. They have a tremendous feeder program and just as many boys roaming their halls as we do. They won't play us because we are a Catholic school.
The judge will bang his little mallet and compel publics of similar numbers to play privates of similar numbers.
You can't exclude Catholics from a league BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC.
The case has already been litigated. what a conference decides to do doesn't mean it passes muster on a legal challenge.
Whether the Catholics decide to litigate or not remains to be seen. Maybe they'll take the high road. Maybe they won't.
But they won't be compelled to create new conferences, which make no geographic sense and have no tradition, becaue the AD at Pascack HIlls is pissed off his best wrestlers go to Bergen Catholic.
This is America, when last I checked.
I live in Monmouth county now. 4 generations of men in my family went to SPP. If I decide to figure out a way to get my sons to SPP every morning, they can't participate in an extra-curricular activity? Because them doing so might hurt the feelings of a kid at Wayne Hills?
In your heart of hearts, you really believe that is a viable solution?
No, you should do what's best for your family. But for competitive balance the kids at Kearney or Ferris shouldn't have to play SPP . An all Parochial conference, like is done in almost every other state, is the fairer way to go. Then those Publics who Want to play the private non public HS out of conference (and vice versa) can have the option to fill out their schedules that way.
