N NJ HS Football Pub vs Non Public chaos

[Jonas Grumby]

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:
Abro,

I admire your tenacity but you continue to miss the point.

THis is how this will go, IF the catholics decide to litigate it.

You honor, Wayne hills has won XX number of sectional championships in football. They have a tremendous feeder program and just as many boys roaming their halls as we do. They won't play us because we are a Catholic school.

The judge will bang his little mallet and compel publics of similar numbers to play privates of similar numbers.

You can't exclude Catholics from a league BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC.

The case has already been litigated. what a conference decides to do doesn't mean it passes muster on a legal challenge.

Whether the Catholics decide to litigate or not remains to be seen. Maybe they'll take the high road. Maybe they won't.

But they won't be compelled to create new conferences, which make no geographic sense and have no tradition, becaue the AD at Pascack HIlls is pissed off his best wrestlers go to Bergen Catholic.

I think the argument that they don't want to play them because "they are catholic" is ludicrous and would not form the basis of a successful lawsuit. Whatever arguments they may have, and I am sure there are legitimate ones, I doubt they would even attempt to make that argument.

Edit: Scratch the point about them not even attempting to make that argument. They probably would make the argument. I still think it is laughable.

This post was edited on 3/24 9:52 AM by Jonas Grumby

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Originally posted by Jonas Grumby:

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:
Abro,

I admire your tenacity but you continue to miss the point.

THis is how this will go, IF the catholics decide to litigate it.

You honor, Wayne hills has won XX number of sectional championships in football. They have a tremendous feeder program and just as many boys roaming their halls as we do. They won't play us because we are a Catholic school.

The judge will bang his little mallet and compel publics of similar numbers to play privates of similar numbers.

You can't exclude Catholics from a league BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC.

The case has already been litigated. what a conference decides to do doesn't mean it passes muster on a legal challenge.

Whether the Catholics decide to litigate or not remains to be seen. Maybe they'll take the high road. Maybe they won't.

But they won't be compelled to create new conferences, which make no geographic sense and have no tradition, becaue the AD at Pascack HIlls is pissed off his best wrestlers go to Bergen Catholic.

I think the argument that they don't want to play them because "they are catholic" is ludicrous and would not form the basis of a successful lawsuit. Whatever arguments they may have, and I am sure there are legitimate ones, I doubt they would even attempt to make that argument.

Edit: Scratch the point about them not even attempting to make that argument. They probably would make the argument. I still think it is laughable.

This post was edited on 3/24 9:52 AM by Jonas Grumby

Clearly, I'm not going to argue the law with YOU of all people. However, if my recollection is correct--and maybe PJR can chime in as he is an attorney and knows the history better than anyone--when Bergen Catholic went looking for a conference, all of the publics in the the old Passaic Valley league (the predecessor to the NNJIL) all refused to admit them. Perhaps PJR knows their reasoning at the time. I don't recall. BC took them to court and argued that they were being excluded because they were a Catholic school. One of the defenses to the suit was unlimited geography. BC countered, in essence, "of course we have unlimited geography and recruit. Out ENTIRE student body is recruited. We would cease to exist without recruiting of all stripes." The publics lost and BC was admitted--that is the Readers Digest version of the case.

This precedent was relied upon again when Nutley and Barringer initially lead the movement to exclude BC, Bosco and Joes. As a compromise, the Catholics agreed to disband the old Atlantic and Pacific structure of the NNJIL, in which BC and Bosco were in one division and Joes and PC were in the other, and move to the structure that put all the Catholics in one division--guaranteeing that they would all play each other every year and in the process giving some overmatched publics relief. Additionally, the parochials moved to scheduling out of state games, rather than relying on crossover games to fill their schedule.

The Parochial schools have given a lot on this issue. One can certainly make the argument that they have only benefited from these moves as they have moved to become national powers and the exposure of OOS games is a big reason why. But they didn't know that going in. They were being good conference mates and being flexible. Now, after 2 or 3 more rounds of realignment, big perennially strong public programs want out of these games too. Why? Certainly not for safety. They don't want their records blemished by a Catholic school. If you are Wayne HIlls, I guess 12-0 on the back of your State Champs jacket is better than 11-1. It's ridiculous.

And Abro keeps talking about conferences around the country. Look at the geography at play here. In total, there MIGHT be 20 total Catholic schools that play football. I don't care enough to look it up. Of those, only 5 are at this national level. Why would St. Joe's Hammonton or Notre Dame or St. John's V want to travel to Sparta to play Pope John in a regular season football game? Why would Pope John want to travel to Jersey City to play SPP in a regular season football game? The Philly Catholic league is a CITY based league. There is tradition and history there. It makes sense geographically.

The Catholics are not robbing the publics of their ability to win a state championship. We are gonna turn the whole apple cart on its head over 5 programs? One of which is PC, which is yet to be determined if they will remain at this level.

 

[e5fdny]

This sounds like the "Diocese of Trenton vs. The Shore Conference" in reverse.

LOL

 

[Bagarocks]

Originally posted by S.Brown:
I miss the NNJIL days.

NNJIL

When I was in high school it was

Clifton
Ridgewood
Teaneck
Paramus
Garfield
Bergenfield
Passaic Valley
Fairlawn
Hackensack
Wayne Valley

 

[RUskoolie]

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:

Originally posted by RUskoolie:
I think you are all arguing the symptoms of a larger problem. These schools can recruit from all over, THAT is what makes it unfair. Who wants to go play a non-public school when their QB is from Orange, RB is from Newark, WR is from South Jersey and OL from Nyack, NY? While every kid on our team is from the same town. That's fair? Are you kidding me?

The NJ non-publics are so good because they have a limitless recruiting footprint. Follow California and reduce their recruiting footprint and this problem will shrink a ton.

Once again, I looked into this process for a family member a few years ago and I was appalled at what goes on and he wasn't even really being recruited by these coaches.

This is America, when last I checked.

I live in Monmouth county now. 4 generations of men in my family went to SPP. If I decide to figure out a way to get my sons to SPP every morning, they can't participate in an extra-curricular activity? Because them doing so might hurt the feelings of a kid at Wayne Hills?

In your heart of hearts, you really believe that is a viable solution?No solution is ever going to please 100% of the crowd. That being said, you are being extreme in your example. Why am I not surprised a non-public alum would have a problem with the California proposal. Heaven forbid you couldn't recruit 12 different counties and to play against North Bergen and win 78-0.

 

[vkj91]

You are right, you can't please everyone. Problem being this all happening bc a handful of schools are crying about a loss. If they are concerned a out making the playoffs why not schedule game at end of the year so points don't matter?

 

[JoeRU0304]

Bagarocks, this was 'my' NNJIL:

Pacific:
St. Joes
Hackensack
Don Bosco
Belleville
Teaneck
Paramus
Paramus Catholic
Nutley

Atlantic:
Bergen Catholic
Ridgewood
Clifton
Passaic
Montclair
Bloomfield
Barringer
Paterson Eastside
Paterson Kennedy

Prior to that it was Essex/Passaic and Bergen divisions (basically flip-flop Belleville and Nutley with BC and Ridgewood). One of my favorite misleading football stats: Belleville leads the all-time series with Don Bosco (7-5).


Joe P.

 

[S.Brown]

Originally posted by JoeRU0304:
Bagarocks, this was 'my' NNJIL:

Pacific:
St. Joes
Hackensack
Don Bosco
Belleville
Teaneck
Paramus
Paramus Catholic
Nutley

Atlantic:
Bergen Catholic
Ridgewood
Clifton
Passaic
Montclair
Bloomfield
Barringer
Paterson Eastside
Paterson Kennedy

Prior to that it was Essex/Passaic and Bergen divisions (basically flip-flop Belleville and Nutley with BC and Ridgewood). One of my favorite misleading football stats: Belleville leads the all-time series with Don Bosco (7-5).


Joe P.

This was my NNJIL also.

My freshman year we had Bergen, Bosco (starting to emerge as power), St.Joseph and Paramus Catholic (not really strong back then) When you throw in how strong Hackensack was back then, very tough schedule.

 

[JoeRU0304]

I remember my senior year we literately had 3 sectional champions in our division alone (Joe's, Hackensack and PC won Parochial B that year) with your Highwaymen I think losing in the sectional finals to Hackensack and St. Joes winning the Ledger trophy as the #1 team in the state. Bosco first started emerging around the late 90's and PC was good maybe every 3rd/4th year (they were absolutely nothing like they are now).

The most ridiculous schedule I remember was Belleville's 92-93 slates (I was in middle school; my older brother was a Frosh and soph those 2 years) that featured Hackensack, St. Joe's, Bergen Catholic, with our OOC game being Randolph when they were still in their ridiculous title run...and just for good measure Nutley won North III Sect. 2 in 1992, meaning that 5 of Belleville's 9 games were against sectional champions that year.


Joe P.

 

[S.Brown]

Originally posted by JoeRU0304:
I remember my senior year we literately had 3 sectional champions in our division alone (Joe's, Hackensack and PC won Parochial B that year) with your Highwaymen I think losing in the sectional finals to Hackensack and St. Joes winning the Ledger trophy as the #1 team in the state. Bosco first started emerging around the late 90's and PC was good maybe every 3rd/4th year (they were absolutely nothing like they are now).

The most ridiculous schedule I remember was Belleville's 92-93 slates (I was in middle school; my older brother was a Frosh and soph those 2 years) that featured Hackensack, St. Joe's, Bergen Catholic, with our OOC game being Randolph when they were still in their ridiculous title run...and just for good measure Nutley won North III Sect. 2 in 1992, meaning that 5 of Belleville's 9 games were against sectional champions that year.


Joe P.

That was my older brother's junior year at Teaneck. Don Sellari was very good for Nutley and Belleville had the safety Alvardo (sp?) who was tough.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Originally posted by RUskoolie:

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:

Originally posted by RUskoolie:
I think you are all arguing the symptoms of a larger problem. These schools can recruit from all over, THAT is what makes it unfair. Who wants to go play a non-public school when their QB is from Orange, RB is from Newark, WR is from South Jersey and OL from Nyack, NY? While every kid on our team is from the same town. That's fair? Are you kidding me?

The NJ non-publics are so good because they have a limitless recruiting footprint. Follow California and reduce their recruiting footprint and this problem will shrink a ton.

Once again, I looked into this process for a family member a few years ago and I was appalled at what goes on and he wasn't even really being recruited by these coaches.

This is America, when last I checked.

I live in Monmouth county now. 4 generations of men in my family went to SPP. If I decide to figure out a way to get my sons to SPP every morning, they can't participate in an extra-curricular activity? Because them doing so might hurt the feelings of a kid at Wayne Hills?

In your heart of hearts, you really believe that is a viable solution?No solution is ever going to please 100% of the crowd. That being said, you are being extreme in your example. Why am I not surprised a non-public alum would have a problem with the California proposal. Heaven forbid you couldn't recruit 12 different counties and to play against North Bergen and win 78-0.

SPP would have little problem playing a schedule that was 50/50 OOS and filled in with Bosco, Bergen, Depaul, Joes, SHP, Delbarton, Pope John, etc.

Ask those other schools--DePaul, Delbarton, SHP, Pope John-- if they want all of the Big 4 on their schedule every year.

Report back...

 

[JoeRU0304]

Shawn, Don teaches/ coaches in Garfield now and John Alvarado is doing well/ living in Bloomfield. His 14 year-old son just won Rec States (wrestling) at 215 and he is pretty much built like a HS upperclassman. I think he's earmarked for Queen of Peace right now and maybe a name to keep an eye on.

...in regards to the original debate, I still think something needs to be done in regards to the transfer craziness we're seeing right now, especially in bball. It's an absolute farce that you have kids who have been to 3-4 high schools in under 2 years for no reason other than sports.


Joe P.

 

[Abro1975]

Breaking news !

Link

 

[vkj91]

Hudson's right, the other schools are going to get crushed. Might as well get rid of Parochial group 2 as well. Last year they had to let in teams with losing records. Now DP won't really be a qualifier. Also, once this DP Junior class is gone they will rerun to the Pope John type level.

 

[vkj91]

Originally posted by Abro1975:
Breaking news !

Dumb, just dumb. They are going to kill the programs of many catholic schools simply because a handful of teams don't want to play one game a year. Most of these small catholic schools are already cash strapped. Let's increase their cost of travel.......

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Originally posted by Abro1975:
Breaking news !

The transfer rule is discriminatory and would be struck down the first time it is challenged in court.

As for the "conference," bring it on.

IT only makes SPP, Bosco and BC stronger, once the smaller Catholic schools close down their football programs due to costs.

 

[JoeRU0304]

I think the transfer rule will end up being adjusted but I don't know how anyone could support the current transfer status-quo, which basically has no integrity. I'd love to see some of the long-term outcomes for the kids that go to 6 high schools in 4 years.


Joe P.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

I think this is a half measure. I think schools , alums and fans on both sides are attempting to hold on to the vestiges of a status quo that no longer makes sense and isn't really salvageable anymore.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Originally posted by Jonas Grumby:
I think this is a half measure. I think schools , alums and fans on both sides are attempting to hold on to the vestiges of a status quo that no longer makes sense and isn't really salvageable anymore.

My point has always been the same.

The publics should be careful what they wish for. That's all.

The Big 4 or 5, however you want to classify them, are immeasurably better now, than before all this realignment. The second teams on most of these schools would win Groups 1, 2 and most of the 3. That was never the case. The better players have flocked to these programs in search of national schedules, ESPN games and D1 'ships.

 

[vkj91]

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:

Originally posted by Abro1975:
Breaking news !

The transfer rule is discriminatory and would be struck down the first time it is challenged in court.

As for the "conference," bring it on.

IT only makes SPP, Bosco and BC stronger, once the smaller Catholic schools close down their football programs due to costs.

And this will happen. Not just from potentially absurd costs but because kids won't want to go to Pope John or DePaul to lose 6 games a year by 40. These schools can't survive losing 15, 20, or 50 kids from each freshman class.

 

[JoeRU0304]

Hudson, I think your point works towards the private schools as well. Im sure a number of these schools have affluent, well-connected, non-football athletic alumni who won't be thrilled to watch their program get relegated to 9th banana-status outside of the NJSIAA.


Joe P.

 

[Abro1975]

NJcom has some reactions from NJ HS Athletic directors. When I started this thread, and put the word Chaos in the title, I didn't realize this would explode in a few days, I figured 6 months to a year. Everyone in this thread has expressed their opinons pretty eloquently w good points being made. At this point there will be a vote coming soon, and then probable litigation, then who knows what. IMO, the disparity was growing at a much quicker rate lately, forcing the issue. There will be unintended consequences no doubt, at this point nobody knows what the end result may be.

Athletic Directors Reaction

 

[Section124]

Originally posted by vkj91:

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:

Originally posted by Abro1975:
Breaking news !

The transfer rule is discriminatory and would be struck down the first time it is challenged in court.

As for the "conference," bring it on.

IT only makes SPP, Bosco and BC stronger, once the smaller Catholic schools close down their football programs due to costs.

And this will happen. Not just from potentially absurd costs but because kids won't want to go to Pope John or DePaul to lose 6 games a year by 40. These schools can't survive losing 15, 20, or 50 kids from each freshman class.

I agree that the transfer rule is discriminatory as well. The transfer situation has gotten out of control, but it needs to be the same for all. I also agree on the costs related to the additional travel for the non-publics will cause small schools to close their programs. Hell, the rumor was SJR was on the brink of closing or going co-ed about 5 years ago.

Abro still hasn't explained why it is acceptable for Old Tappan to beat Tenafly 37-0 (and Tenafly had Nakia Griffin) or Demarest 49-19. How is that a level playing field? This is all about the publics wanting to have no losses and their fake state championships. How I wish that NNJIL still existed. What a conference!

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:

My point has always been the same.

The publics should be careful what they wish for. That's all.

The Big 4 or 5, however you want to classify them, are immeasurably better now, than before all this realignment. The second teams on most of these schools would win Groups 1, 2 and most of the 3. That was never the case. The better players have flocked to these programs in search of national schedules, ESPN games and D1 'ships.

Well, I think we are at an inflection point and it is hard to predict going forward. i think this could push the few too even greater heights. Alternatively, the end state here may be an all sports split, with the non publics playing a mix of state, regional and national games. Very doable for a top football team, not so much for other sports. Lots of potential downside . That would shutter the sports programs of lesser teams. And, I wonder if in 15 years some of these schools don't more resemble sports acadamies than their traditional mission. the arms race of the last 20 years has served a couple of schools very well up to this point, but the true costs May have not been seen yet.


This post was edited on 3/24 9:39 PM by Jonas Grumby

 

[JoeRU0304]

Section124- some good points. You're also one of the first of the more parochial school 'lean' posters in the thread to actually acknowledge the current transfer situation is beyond absurd. I seriously don't know how anyone could sit there with a straight face and think its ok for a kid to transfer 3-4 times in one year just for sports.


Joe P.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Originally posted by JoeRU0304:
Section124- some good points. You're also one of the first of the more parochial school 'lean' posters in the thread to actually acknowledge the current transfer situation is beyond absurd. I seriously don't know how anyone could sit there with a straight face and think its ok for a kid to transfer 3-4 times in one year just for sports.


Joe P.

Just an oversight on my part not coming out and saying it. I think you are 100% right, especially on the basketball and wrestling side.

You tend to not see it as much in football, but it does happen.

I would rather see the NJSIAA put the schools and ADs on record that shady transfers will be thoroughly investigated and violators of the rule, and the spirit of the rule, will be harshly penalized.

 

[Abro1975]

"Abro still hasn't explained why it is acceptable for Old Tappan to beat Tenafly 37-0 (and Tenafly had Nakia Griffin) or Demarest 49-19. How is that a level playing field? This is all about the publics wanting to have no losses and their fake state championships. How I wish that NNJIL still existed. What a conference! "

It is acceptable for Old Tappan to beat Tenafly 37-0 for the same reason it is acceptable for SPP to beat Seton Hall Prep by that score, or Ohio St to be RU by that score , or the Patriots to beat the Jets by that score... because it is an equal playing field as far as access to players.

And this is Not about the Publics wanting zero losses, it's about playing with kids their own town against another Public HS with kids from their own town. Will their be occasional shennanigans? Sure, but not to the level that exists currently with the NNJ Non Publics.

And it's only for football currently. They , the NJ ADs and coaches, will eventually have the votes to fix Boys BB , where Roselle Catholic, Seton Hall Prep, St Anthonys , have all star teams with players from NY, Pa , Conn and elsewhere. Then they will turn to Wrestling where Region 2 w Bergen C , with kids from Romania, and DBP have won about 95 % of the D2 Regional championships with All Star teams , and Star 'volunteer' coaches paid by the dads so that there about 10 coaches for each team, wrestling overmatched publics. Oh, it's coming. PS- Baseball may be a couple of seasons behind , where Seton Hall Prep, BC, DBP annihilate everyone w all star teams, and Gloucester Catholic might now have surpassed the N NJ Non Publics with their recruiting .

Interesting times.



This post was edited on 3/24 10:37 PM by Abro1975

 

[vkj91]

And at the end of the day the Big 4 will continue to dominate, smaller Catholics will either lose programs or shut their doors, and kids who had the shot to get out of Irvington will be stuck in those hell holes instead of going to college. All because the 2500 kids at Wayne Hills couldn't compete with the 500 at DP. Again, the safety concern is legit for tiny schools but PCT and Hills are just being babies. Also, nobody likes or is for the transfers including most of the coaches.

 

[JoeRU0304]

Hudson- gotcha. I was interested in what you thought on the matter. I agree that it tends to be more with bball and wrestling (the whole St. Mary's/ QP fiasco from about 7-8 years back), but it's starting to creep into football. Some of these kids 'chasing the ship'- are they even going to be eligible with their patchwork transcripts and the NCAA clearinghouse? Do they have a plan B?

My idea is to 'tier' the transfer process- you transfer once in your first 2 years of HS without moving-ok, things happen...you transfer after your soph year or twice before then without a move? 30-day sit out, possible postseason sit-out pending investigation. You transfer after the year started without a legit move? You don't play sports that year if you've previously played or were on the team at your last school. I know it's not perfect but it's a start.


Joe P.

 

[JoeRU0304]

I also agree with the school penalties too. With the transfers, I'd say 1st 'major' violation- 1 year postseason ban in the sport with no out of state tournaments/ competitions during the season of the ban. 2nd major violation in a 5-year period- 2-year postseason ban/ no out-of-state competition. 3? Two-year ban for offending sport plus 1-year ban for ALL SPORTS, no out of state competitions during this time. You violate again, or choose not to comply? Suspension w/ possible expulsion from the NJSIAA.


Joe P.