OT - Atlantic City - default, bankruptcy, and state takeover

[imbazza2]

So, let yet another NJ city rot instead of doing something?

Remember AC in the 70-80s 2-3 blocks from the board walk was Camden. Not do nothing but make it so money revenue is locked into infrastructure, schools, public services lock the political greased hand so the can not touch it or at least minimized their draining (it is Jersey we know) NOT a Political project that get milked. Yes AC will have to fall back to what it was Pre casinos and then build itself back up.
Yes it is painful but what has been done and milked off the casinos and the state is a sin

 

[RU1977]

They should basically have bulldozed most of AC and rebuilt it......

I am looking forward to Revel re-opening, but don't know what it will be like.

 

[newell138]

They should basically have bulldozed most of AC and rebuilt it......

I am looking forward to Revel re-opening, but don't know what it will be like.

most of it was bulldozed but its amazing to me that some of those blocks in between the casinos that butt right up against the boardwalk and beach are still there looking like a 3rd world slum. Those row homes have been there since the early 1900s

 

[NickKnight 1]

I'm there about as often as you are. Revel is scheduled to reopen. What is the other one?

Yes the Revel is one, Perhaps i should have not used the
word scheduled for showboat, but the latest I heard on it, was coming
back as a casino not college, but they seems to be going back and forth.
Sadly the other water park where the Hilton was, seems to have
fallen through, however the water park at the Revel is a go, starting
construction in May.
I know a lot of people have given up on AC. But AC had and has
much potential to be a world class venue. But so far everything did not
go the way it could have.

 

[tico brown]

It failed to become the las vegas so now you want to try and make it new orleans?

Ha!

Unfortunately AC has more in common with New Orleans than you think.

 

[Phi_1055]

Yes the Revel is one, Perhaps i should have not used the
word scheduled for showboat, but the latest I heard on it, was coming
back as a casino not college, but they seems to be going back and forth.
Sadly the other water park where the Hilton was, seems to have
fallen through, however the water park at the Revel is a go, starting
construction in May.
I know a lot of people have given up on AC. But AC had and has
much potential to be a world class venue. But so far everything did not
go the way it could have.

Agreed. All the talk about north Jersey casinos is putting some investments in AC on hold at what is critical time. Two days ago I was told by a guy in middle management at Tropicana that Carl Icahn has suspended his plans to invest $100 million in Taj Mahal until things are sorted out.

Long time followers of AC know while political corruption and incompetence played big roles in AC's failure to develop, many years ago Steve Wynn and Merv Griffin called out a certain casino owner as a significant obstructionist to progress. So much more could have been done through private partnerships and public-private investments if one guy didn't invest so much time and money blocking them.

 

[MCY]

Competition, government incompetence, corruption and the unintended consequences of allowing only "casino" gambling are the reasons AC finds itself in this position. The state was so worried about mob corruption that they setup a system that allowed only casinos to operate thereby making it easier for the state to monitor. If my memory is correct, the law, in short, permits only casino gambling - complete with hotel, restaurants, yada yada yada. The law single handedly setup a system that precluded most private investment unless of course you have a few hundred million, now a few billion, dollars to build a casino. The result was predicable - very little, if any, private investment has taken place outside of the handful of casinos and some free standing restaurants.

 

[patk89]

Agreed, the obvious answer is to simply increase taxes on the Plutocrats, lol. The Cost of allowing AC to rot is simply to high a price to bear.

Let it rot. I'm sure you would propose raising the minimum wage to $50/hour and making everyone a union member which would save the city. Morons who currently make $8/hour wouldn't spend the incremental income on your paradise of pot/smut and improve the community. Makes me laugh at how little you know about simple economics. There are no jobs. Hence, you move to where the jobs are located. Whether it be north Jersey or Texas. People are not entitled to live in the town that they grew up in forever.

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

On the one hand you blame government, but at the same time absolve the private sector from responsibility. This is a consequence of non-regulation.

The only way AC would have been spared, would have been to build in some form of taxation designed to specifically benefit Atlantic City.

And that would have been met with scorn and derision from the Anti-Government Crowd, as well as the Anti-Tax Crowd.

In the end, this situation was inevitable. Free Market Economics at their worse. The Public was fleeced from Day 1.

and it didn't matter because Trump still took AC hostage. Every time, the state of NJ asked for more from Trump he would threaten Bankruptcy.

The answer would have required specific legislation for the infrastructure of Atlantic City at the inception of the Casino Charter. And this is unfortunately where Race and Politics enter the fray.

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

Let it rot. I'm sure you would propose raising the minimum wage to $50/hour and making everyone a union member which would save the city. Morons who currently make $8/hour wouldn't spend the incremental income on your paradise of pot/smut and improve the community. Makes me laugh at how little you know about simple economics. There are no jobs. Hence, you move to where the jobs are located. Whether it be north Jersey or Texas. People are not entitled to live in the town that they grew up in forever.

On the one hand you allow Private Corporations and Free Enterprise to utilize the public ie. Boardwalk, Roads, etc to make a profit.

Then you say the Government, the people, don't have a vested interest in fixing the problem.

and so you're advocating the destruction of AC, because in your myopic view, it doesn't directly benefit you.

just admit that this issue is just too complex for your brain to handle, and the solutions go against your simplistic view of America and the role of Government.

Might as well turn over AC to the Warlords and Tribal Rulers, lol in your view. Let them fix it, and then once that's done. Take it back, by trading for it with some beads and fire water, lol.

 

[MCY]

On the one hand you blame government, but at the same time absolve the private sector from responsibility. This is a consequence of non-regulation.

The only way AC would have been spared, would have been to build in some form of taxation designed to specifically benefit Atlantic City.

And that would have been met with scorn and derision from the Anti-Government Crowd, as well as the Anti-Tax Crowd.

In the end, this situation was inevitable. Free Market Economics at their worse. The Public was fleeced from Day 1.

and it didn't matter because Trump still took AC hostage. Every time, the state of NJ asked for more from Trump he would threaten Bankruptcy.

The answer would have required specific legislation for the infrastructure of Atlantic City at the inception of the Casino Charter. And this is unfortunately where Race and Politics enter the fray.

The solution was not to tax the casinos or another entity MORE. The solution was to allow for private investment and provide tax BREAKS to those who invested. It wasn't the free market that setup AC to fail, it was the government not permitting the free market to develop AC that leaves us with, what is in essence, Camden with a few nice buildings along the boardwalk.

 

[jvdavy]

There's only 39,000 people in Atlantic City -it's not even a city based on population. in 2000 it had 40,000 people so it isn't like they lost a vast amount of population. Given it's small size, when the casinos were doing well and pouring billions in tax revenues, they were only supporting a town that had at most 40,000 people. You would figure it should have great infrastructure but i guess that's what corruption and mismanagement lead to.

 

[patk89]

Are you really that stupid or are you 16? There was zero probability of NJ voters approving casino gambling (only place in the US outside of Vegas) if the carrot of a significant portion of taxes going to fund education in NJ was not included. AC was dying. This gave them at least a shot and the local politicians failed. Corruption/unions supporting pols who would vote to support unions which would increase the number of union voters which would elect even more corrupt pols/cycle never ended...

 

[suggakane]

Bring back Nucky Thompson.

Johnson

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

Are you really that stupid or are you 16? There was zero probability of NJ voters approving casino gambling (only place in the US outside of Vegas) if the carrot of a significant portion of taxes going to fund education in NJ was not included. AC was dying. This gave them at least a shot and the local politicians failed. Corruption/unions supporting pols who would vote to support unions which would increase the number of union voters which would elect even more corrupt pols/cycle never ended...

Let me guess, you're against Taxation, against Unions, and for the Fleecing of the Public. Give the Savages, Beads, lol.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Colorado and Washington State are raking it in with legalized weed.

NJ would be the only one on the East Coast- it would be like bringing back the casino monolopy when we were the only ones on the East Coast with casinos. And at that time, AC was making more money than Vegas.

Allow open container, set aside 1-2 blocks for an Amsterdam style red light district, and in a few years not only will AC be fixed but we can start working on fixing the disgraceful outdated infrastructure we have.

 

[soundcrib]

Legalize sports betting in AC.

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

Legalize sports betting in AC.

Organized Crime is adamantly against this.

 

[Phi_1055]

Legalize sports betting in AC.

I'm part of Borgata's beta test that starts tomorrow. I think about 1,000 frequent customers were invited to participate. We promised not to say anything until now. They hope to go live by Memorial Day.

 

[T2Kplus10]

The solution was not to tax the casinos or another entity MORE. The solution was to allow for private investment and provide tax BREAKS to those who invested. It wasn't the free market that setup AC to fail, it was the government not permitting the free market to develop AC that leaves us with, what is in essence, Camden with a few nice buildings along the boardwalk.

Hits the nail on the head. Government is 100% responsible for the state of AC. There is nobody else to blame. Corruption and stupid short-sighted policy destroyed the city.

 

[T2Kplus10]

For comparison, all towns with about 40,000 residents (budgets):

Montclair - $80m
Hoboken - $108m
Atlantic City - $262m (and this is after $25m in cuts over the past few years)

Anyone see a problem?

And for fun, a suburban town:
Bridewater - $40m

 

[Phi_1055]

For comparison, all towns with about 40,000 residents (budgets):

Montclair - $80m
Hoboken - $108m
Atlantic City - $262m (and this is after $25m in cuts over the past few years)

Anyone see a problem?

And for fun, a suburban town:
Bridewater - $40m

Let's try something more apples to apples

Myrtle Beach

Population 27,000
Budget $176m

 

[MCY]

Interesting numbers Phi and T2K. What would add to the discussion is the number of housing units and the value of those units. I would guess that Myrtle Beach has hundreds or perhaps a thousand more housing units at a much higher value.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Interesting numbers Phi and T2K. What would add to the discussion is the number of housing units and the value of those units. I would guess that Myrtle Beach has hundreds or perhaps a thousand more housing units at a much higher value.

Good stuff/info. And I assume Myrtle Beach has many more visitors during a 12 month period.

 

[Phi_1055]

Interesting numbers Phi and T2K. What would add to the discussion is the number of housing units and the value of those units. I would guess that Myrtle Beach has hundreds or perhaps a thousand more housing units at a much higher value.

There are a lot of variables to consider but both cities spend about $6,500 per resident and both are large tourist destinations with a small resident population. AC has more hotel rooms. MB has more rented condos and timeshares. AC has more day trippers. Adjusting the data for visitors requires research and study.

But the point holds that MB is a much better apples to apples comparison to AC than any city or town in NJ and the high level data is comparable for both. I've seen the numbers used by TK before but they don't mean much because the towns and cities are so different.

 

[MCY]

I wonder if the numbers sited for AC and Myrtle Beach include or exclude school funding. I am assuming they do not, since I THINK the numbers for Hoboken and Montclair do not.

 

[T2Kplus10]

There are a lot of variables to consider but both cities spend about $6,500 per resident and both are large tourist destinations with a small resident population. AC has more hotel rooms. MB has more rented condos and timeshares. AC has more day trippers. Adjusting the data for visitors requires research and study.

But the point holds that MB is a much better apples to apples comparison to AC than any city or town in NJ and the high level data is comparable for both. I've seen the numbers used by TK before but they don't mean much because the towns and cities are so different.

Just looked at the MB budget and a few things are off. I'm seeing $30 to 40m in non government costs, not sure what that means. But the budgets may not be apples to apples. Also, it looks like MB grows to twice the size of AC during peak tourism in the summer. So MB looks to be a bigger operation.

 

[RU31trap]

Was in AC a few months ago and there is still a very bad element in the center of town. Still like going down for a couple of days in July. Everyone know what they should have done back in 1978 but politicians didn't have the stomach to act.

 

[RU4Real]

Myrtle Beach (with gambling) would be a better community model for Atlantic City than is New Orleans. The recover of AC (casinos aside) should probably be more aligned, at least in spirit, with the recoveries of places like Asbury Park and Long Branch. Having the casinos as the sole driver of both revenue and reform probably isn't representative of intelligent planning.

 

[El Curioso Impertinente]

Was in AC a few months ago and there is still a very bad element in the center of town. Still like going down for a couple of days in July. Everyone know what they should have done back in 1978 but politicians didn't have the stomach to act.

I'm curious, What was that?

 

[bac2therac]

NJ wasted so much revenue that went out of state by not allowing a racino at the Meadowlands, its finally going to be coming but NJ politicians blew it because they wanted to protect AC and the place rotted out anyhow

 

[bac2therac]

I think if they would make the rooms more affordable and lower the minimum bets on table games they might get an increase in traffic. Try to find a $5 table of any game, its impossible. You take a guy like me that would risk $200 gambling, when minimums are $25 dollars, it makes for a lot of early nights. Also $300 to $500 a night for a room, not going to happen.

yeah the prices charged for the hotels are ridiculous and doesnt encourage people to come down. A shitty dump hotel can still cost plenty..sure free rooms are great during the week but most are going down on weekends

I used to go once or twice a year but havent gambled there in about 8 years..now if Im there for a concert its just drive in and drive out in one night..too expensive to stay

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

AC is a money pit, time to cut our loses.

 

[RUScrew85]

If you have a total rewards card (caesars, harrah's, bally's) and basically any tier credits at all, you can get a free room basically any sunday through thrusday night. If you reach diamond status, you can get a free room virtually any night you want. I was just at caesars from Saturday through yesterday for no charge other than the resort fee and tax ($26 a night total). If you go to AC to any casino and don't get a player's card (get rated) than you are a just giving away money. My best friend who went with me last month and bought in for $100 and played $5 blackjack at Wild Wild West til it was gone 25 minutes later and then didn't gamble the rest of the trip, is now eligible for the free rooms, you hardly have to gamble at all. I play bigger ($25-$100 a hand at blackjack) but I've never lost more than $600 bucks and regularly win more than $1500 and I always get my rooms free and most of my meals comped through rewards points. Oh, and weed and prostitution are basically legal already as I've been caught with both in my hotel rooms numerous times and never had any trouble. Security at Caesars usually just asks you to put a towel under the door and to keep the noise down.

Interesting post.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Christie is claiming that he will campaign against N Jersey casinos if control of AC isn't handed over to him, in order to punish North Jersey politicians who he claims (falsely) are blocking him.

In Christie fantasy land, the mayor of Jersey City is the reason why the Republican mayor of AC won't hand over control to a governor with 27% approval rating.

He should go back to being a Drumpf brownshirt and leave NJ alone. Resign already.

 

[csphi]

Christie is claiming that he will campaign against N Jersey casinos if control of AC isn't handed over to him, in order to punish North Jersey politicians who he claims (falsely) are blocking him.

In Christie fantasy land, the mayor of Jersey City is the reason why the Republican mayor of AC won't hand over control to a governor with 27% approval rating.

He should go back to being a Drumpf brownshirt and leave NJ alone. Resign already.

Lighten up on the Nazi references..

Hate Christie all you want and I'm no fan either.

But as a Jew....you can easily get your point across without being a jack ass

 

[NotInRHouse]

Lighten up on the Nazi references..

Hate Christie all you want and I'm no fan either.

But as a Jew....you can easily get your point across without being a jack ass

Many Jewish groups have taken extreme issue with Drump's campaign and walked out on his "talk" with AIPAC. Unfortunately, the comparison is increasingly apt. I never thought I would see an American political campaign where journalists are being roughed up, racial and religious minorities being singled out for attack, nevermind the bigoted comments against basically everyone.

 

[csphi]

Many Jewish groups have taken extreme issue with Drump's campaign and walked out on his "talk" with AIPAC. Unfortunately, the comparison is increasingly apt. I never thought I would see an American political campaign where journalists are being roughed up, racial and religious minorities being singled out for attack, nevermind the bigoted comments against basically everyone.

And what do Jewish groups have to do with you injecting nazi references? I'm sure that any Jewish group who saw your reference to brownshirts wouldn't take too kindly either.

Yes those groups walked out at AIPAC, because they think Trump is a bafoon and I happen to agree, but nazi references should have no part in the political discussion....its grossly insensitive to those like myself who lost relatives in the Holocaust

Like I said....there are better ways to express your dislike of a candidate....

Take a deep breath....put down the Red Bull and think before you post

 

[bac2therac]

Christie is claiming that he will campaign against N Jersey casinos if control of AC isn't handed over to him, in order to punish North Jersey politicians who he claims (falsely) are blocking him.

In Christie fantasy land, the mayor of Jersey City is the reason why the Republican mayor of AC won't hand over control to a governor with 27% approval rating.

He should go back to being a Drumpf brownshirt and leave NJ alone. Resign already.

you should like this...you absurdly railed against North Jersey casinos for years saying that AC was so promising and had such a great club scene to carry it for the millenial generation

 

[NotInRHouse]

No I didn't say we should not have North Jersey casinos just that we would be back where we started, which we will, but I don't agree with retaliating over them