I've had this idea forever and think it would work. Turn the boardwalk into a year round destination center by enclosing it with some kind of glass/clear material. The enclosure would be able to open and close depending on weather. Then start buying up the boardwalk properties and creating an entertainment district with bars, clubs, restaurants, shops etc. Maybe even make for an area where you can walk with drinks from place to place. Get all of the casinos involved with making this a cooperative effort.
OT: Atlantic City, Sports Betting and Real Estate
- Thread starter R1766U
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Back in 1978'ish my dad and uncle said to me and my cousin "they're making a big mistake here. All this glitter can't make the stench from all that @&$) go away". In other words, without eminent domain cleaning up the underbelly of AC it was only a matter of time before it would collapse. They were old and wise, unfortunately didn't live long enough to see the mess AC is today.
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Thanks. I knew the route would have to travel via philly, which as article says means 2.5 to 3 hour ride, but never knew they actually tried this.
Atlantic City is a dump. AC was doomed by liberal policies. IF you want to clean up AC all you have to do is eliminate all the failed liberal policies starting with public housing. Just look at the successful shore towns like Avalon, Stone Harbor, Cape May, and so on. Once you get rid of public housing the lower class will go back to Camden or wherever. The middle and upper class will then return to AC.
Eminent domain was not the problem. They did NOT clean up the under belly. The real problem is the public housing that attracted all the lower class people. Anywhere you have public housing eventually turns into a ghetto. Any casinos in Camden, North Philly, West Philly, Bronx, Newark, Detroit, Sside of Chicago?
Or don't have the authority to do what has to be done!!! Does the mayor have the authority to get rid of HUD housing? Doubt it.
Hookers, drug dealers, pimps, high crime and horrible schools. Get a clue. The real problem is obvious and a new casino, HSR, sports betting won't fix those problem.
AC could have become the "Garden Spot of the Western World" were it not for the NBA territorial draft.Had that still not been in place when the Crystal City Carpetbagger graduated from Princeton,it is unlikely that he would have been in a position to stop sports betting in the 90's.Hell,if that went though Trump may have stayed in the casino business.
NO. There are not enough police to babysit all the criminals. JUst eliminate public housing and the criminals will be have to go back to Camden. You don't need more police in the good shore towns. Any murders in OC, SIC, Stone Harbor, Avalon or cape May? I will put the over under on those towns combined murders at 1/2 a murder in the last 100 years.
MY favorite AC story was the tourists from Europe that had a bad smell in their room. Eventually the tourist found a dead body stuffed in their box spring. Welcome to America.
And AC would still be a dump.. The average single in Stone HArbor and Avalon sold for over a million last year. No sports betting or casinos.
True but one flaw. None of that works when you have low income housing that attracts pimps, hookers, drug dealers, bad schools, crime, litter and graffiti. YOu have to eliminate the public housing. Think OC Maryland. You don't even have to go that far. Think OC NJ or ANY shore town without public housing.
Nobody wants to invest in a high end condo when there are low income projects a block away selling for one tenth the price. People don't want to vacation in a ghetto. If you eliminate the public housing the private developers will redevelop that place like crazy because it is so cheap compared to surrounding shore towns. The other shore towns don't need casinos ore sports betting. The casinos that don't make it can simply be converted to condos.
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It would have helped. They would have cleaned up the center and then pushed out. But those old enough to remember will tell you that it became highly politicized. Also, neighboring towns fought just as hard to keep Atlantic City's mess inside Atlantic City. If Eminent Domain was successful where was the mess going to move to, Camden? Heck No, it would have been pushed to Egg Harbor, Mays Landing and maybe a few in Brigantine (sp). Going back to my dad & uncle (you'll love this one) "this is a five year project, one full block at a time". that would have taken the cooperation of first and foremost politicians (State & local), police, investors and the mob.
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That five year project starts with getting rid of public housing. Notice how the shore towns without public housing are doing great?
Copperation of cops and politicians means nothing unless you first have the cooperation of the people that live there. If you had the cooperation of the people that lived there you would not need the cops and politicians.
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Something I should have added when discussing high speed rail / access to AC and got responses about high rollers not taking trains...
Saving AC is not the same thing as saving casinos.
Maybe the best way to save AC is getting rid of gambling. Or ignoring trying to save gambling there.
We got all this land in South Jersey with little commercial development / industry. Asbury Park has both the beach AND train access to NYC. Plenty of the new middle class there commute to NYC. High speed rail can open up a lot of places to be bedroom communities to NYC and Philly and that, in turn, will spur investment and development. Casinos may or may not benefit.. but with good use of eminent domain and revelopment, high speed rail could do wonders.
Saving AC is not the same thing as saving casinos.
Maybe the best way to save AC is getting rid of gambling. Or ignoring trying to save gambling there.
We got all this land in South Jersey with little commercial development / industry. Asbury Park has both the beach AND train access to NYC. Plenty of the new middle class there commute to NYC. High speed rail can open up a lot of places to be bedroom communities to NYC and Philly and that, in turn, will spur investment and development. Casinos may or may not benefit.. but with good use of eminent domain and revelopment, high speed rail could do wonders.
North Philly has one casino (SugarHouse), there is one just west of downtown Detroit and a few more casino along Lake Michigan next door to Chicago in Gary, Hammond and East Chicago, all ACs by the lake.
AC doesn't have to look up and down the shore to copy livable shore towns with low crime and housing you want to buy now. All they have to do is ask the folks who share the same giant sandbar: Ventnor, Margate and Longport.
The problem with AC is NOT access. The problem is it is a DUMP. MILLIONS of people drive right past AC every summer on their way to nice shore towns. They are not sitting at home waiting for HSR to AC. They don't want to go to AC.
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That is NOT North Philly. YOu can't even get a Wawa or ANY regional convenience store to build in North PHilly these days. North PHilly, Camden and Chester can't even get a grocery store to open without subsidies.
Even if we use your examples your examples don't help AC. North PHilly and Detroit are still DUMPS. No casinos in the nice shore towns. Casinos are not the solution.
You are missing the point. You have no vision. You are thinking about summer vacations and gamblers. I'm talking about year-round middle and upper-middle class commuters. AC cannot be a commuter town now. They could with HSR... and plenty of surrounding towns could benefit as well.
Of course, the big money Bergen County polticos want tha arc tunnel to benefit their real estate investments up north. So HSR is not likely to happen. Heck even the long-rumored Monmouth-Ocean-Middlesex line died from lack of funds.
Once the state of NJ labels a place as a tourist destination, it is almost the kiss of death.
Some of those blocks need a bulldozer. Too much of the area is ghetto with some nice hotels sprinkled in. Was there today for a walk on the boards, even the stores on the boardwalk are ghetto. Yet 2 miles south in margate and ventnor and longport you have beautiful homes on every block. Restaurants also doing great in those same towns because people that live there can afford to support them
NOT a shot. Two more murders and a school shooting this week. HSR does not fix those problems. There are plenty of great year round towns without HSR. If you igore the real problems which YOU are doing, HSR does NOT fix your problems.
There are plenty of GHETTOS with very easy access to NYC and PHilly. The problem is NOT access.
Let me know when people are standing in line to live in a high priced ghetto with bad schools.
AC is already very easy access to Philly!!! It is only 60 miles straight. It could not get any easier. Not exactly a tough commute especially in the off season when there is little or no traffic. You are looking for excuses. If we waste a few billion on HSR you will go on to your next excuse and continue to ignore the real issues.
I have an offer for you. WE will waste the billions on HSR if YOU agree to put some skin in the game and agree to eliminate public housing in AC, NYC and Philly? You in or will you make excuses because you know your plan will fail?
I love how liberals always tell us their projects will save us money but at the end of the day there is no savings. Where is the savings? Time for you to put some skin in the game. If you think YOUR plan will work then let's lock in the future savings.
HSR won't work!!! Access from AC to Philly/NYC won't work when half the people in Philly and NYC can't even fix their OWN neighborhoods.
What is holding down the people in people North Philly, Camden, or the ghettos of NYC? Do they not have access to Center City or Mahattan? Is the 10 minute commute too far?
No high speed rails to Margate.
The people in Margate can afford to support the local economy because they WORK! AC is addicted to welfare. Hoodienomics always fails because the more you do for the poor the less they do for themselves so they are always poor.
I'm not a believer in Atlantic City, either, but if you had told me in the mid-1980s that Asbury Park would revitalize I would have laughed. And they don't even have casinos to blame.
Sadly, it would take the kind of vision -- and more years, thus more patience -- to do anything of the sort in Atlantic City. And the fact that it's farther south doesn't help, either.
Sadly, it would take the kind of vision -- and more years, thus more patience -- to do anything of the sort in Atlantic City. And the fact that it's farther south doesn't help, either.
How many of them have the beach?
I get it... ghettos suck, bad government sucks, high overhead and low tax base sucks.. no kidding. What I am saying is that you cannot compare Margate and Atlantic City and expect things that work in Margate to work in Atlantic City. AC is just over 17 sq miles.. Margate is less than 2... and most of that is an easy walk to the beach.
Years ago you could have said the same things about Asbury and Ocean Grove... or Long Branch and Deal.
HSR.. which would benefit the entire Jersey Shore, would add a piece of the puzzle. You would need to do something about all those other problems.. but HSR would make more people think about living further south.. year round.. and that would help the tax base which would make other things possible.
Do you honestly think Asbury is a success?? Is it better than AC, yes absolutely, but is it a successful community? I was there today with the honey and honestly it's a freak show. Then, go ahead, walk 4 or 5 blocks Inland towards the RR tracks and it gets real dicey. My attorney speculated 1.5 million in 2005 with the hopes the local govt. was going to designate a two block radius (Cookman Rd area by grocery store) for eminent domain/redevelopment. Never happened. He pulled out and luckily did not lose anything, but honestly when 1.5 million sits around for 17 years you lost a great deal of interest.
I'll say it again. When you look at an AC project you start in1970. You get the right people on the Planning Board, Zoning Board and a puppet for a Mayor. Then you create a new Master Plan, rezoning large parcels of land. Send out notices, call in the police, demolition crews and you don't stop! Until the entire underbelly of AC is a huge parking lot, you do not start any development. Then you build from the Marina directly to the board walk. From there you push out.
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You are just looking for excuses. 17 sq miles is NOT the problem. Plenty of shore towns much bigger than Margate if you want to compare. OC NJ, OC MD, Myrtle Beach, Cape Cod, Marthas Vinyard, and so on. Cape Cod is a couple hundred sq miles. We can even compare AC to AC before it was a ghetto. THe reality is you are just making excuses for FAILURE.
I am even willing to support your plan and the ONLY condition is YOU ut skin in the game. ARE you willing to give up welfare/public housing in all the towns along the HSR or will you look for more excuses for YOUR plan to fail?
Any HSR in ASbury or Ocean Grove?
The ONE thing you need is people willing to work hard./ AC does not have it and will never have it as long as you have low income housing which attracts people who are too lazy to work.
If we do some social algebra and isolate the variables the problem is the low class people in AC. AC was great before low income housing. After low income housing it turned into a ghetto. Other towns without HSR are great.
Ever notice that the lower class's solution for their problems is always for someone else to do the work or provide more? At the end of the day the poor are always still poor because the more you do for the the less they do for themselves.
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Yes I most certainly think Asbury is a success that is still in progress. Were you there 15 years ago? - the place was an apacoltyptic ghost town. They have a thriving music and art scene along with having top of the line restaurants. It is amazing what has transformed there in what amounts to a decade. Is Asbury perfect? No, but the gay community is pushing real estate more and more out. A revitalization of a whole town does not happen overnight - but to call Asbury a failure is just not true.
Heck they just built a top of the line hotel and on the whole Asbury gets MAJOR publicity as a go to vacation spot. Are they going in the right direction? Absolutely!
Any HSR?
Sounds like AC should replace low income housing with a gay community. Gays are usually hard working professionals.
If you isolate the variables and do some social algebra the problem with AC is the lower class PEOPLE in AC.
if all the "gays" were put on a "HSR" to "AC" maybe it would solve the problem.
The people that claim HSR will solve the problem still did not answer the question. If we support HSR will they agree to eliminate all the low income housing along the HSR? Not a shot. They will just look for more excuses for people that fail.
They say they need A, B, C and we give them A, B, C, D, E, F, - XYZ and they still fail. They get everything except the the things they really need and they come from within. You can't redistribute brains, ambition and work ethics.
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What's wrong with you?
HSR can be part of the solution. Its not a freakin magic bullet.
Do you think simply eliminating the low income housing everywhere will fix things? You live in a state that mandated the creation of low income housing in more wealthy towns. Mt. Laurel Doctrine.
You created this straw man about people unwilling to eliminate low income housing and then expected those same made-up opponents to answer you. You are living in a fantasy world.
Hows this for a realization.. railroads helped make Atlantic City a destination back in its heyday. Railroads helped attract all those workers needed to build a city to service all those vacationers and conventioneers headed there on trains.
Then came a depression, a world war and eventually air travel opened up the country and the world to travel... leaving Atlantic City as a forgotten wasteland by the 1970s. Then came gambling.
But that husk of a city.. designed to handle huge numbers of tourists.. was not set up like those other towns you mentioned. It was not set up for vacation home purchases... its a city... with all the payroll and retirement and workers comp and disability liabilities of a large city that is in decline. And the poor people living there for generations. their ancestors went there to work. The jobs left, the people remained.
Did those people invent bad government.. or did they inherit it? Didn't we just see an HBO series based on bad government as far back as the birth of Atlantic City?
You want to purge the land of poor people living on public assistance and living in ghettos and public housing. Then real estate developers, those favored by corrupt politicians at least, they can do whatever they want... right? That will fix things. right?
Sure.. keep kidding yourself.. that is much more reasonable than considering the value of HSR in development.
I am all for HSR as long as you agree to make cuts to welfare. The reality is you will just make more excuses for the GENERATIONS of poor who fail no matter what you do for them. YOu are living in fantasy land too. You think spending billions on HSR will suddenly cure all the problems for people who don't even feed their kids breakfast. 50 years ago you wanted to give them housing. YOu then went to education and healthcare. What are the results? They are still poor and the costs are outrageous.
You hold yourselves down. Da man is not holding you down. The rich and poor both have the same government, same President, same tax laws, same public school, same NCLB, same tests, and so on. Can you explain why every school has a valedictorian and another kid that finishes last? Maybe the kid that finished last did not have HSR to the library.
Who ELECTED the government in AC? Is AC still part of the USA? That bad government you are crying about was ELECTED by the poor in AC. They CHOSE welfare over jobs. They CHOSE failed policies and public housing. They have probably received the MOST funding and MOST public assistance of any shore town and they still fail. They fail on merit.
Public housing is what destroyed AC.
The nice shore towns fight like hell to prevent public housing.
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I don't know enough about AC to comment -- have been there only once, and that was to meet a blind date at the Borgata. I had a little trouble getting back on the expressway from the Borgata going back, and I saw more of AC than I'd want to.
I'm writing only because there seems to be an assumption that there's a lot of public housing in Camden. There is not. The vast majority of people there live in old rowhomes.
I'm writing only because there seems to be an assumption that there's a lot of public housing in Camden. There is not. The vast majority of people there live in old rowhomes.
Like you said, you don't know much about AC. AC has their own public housing agency. Do any of the other SJ shore towns have a public housing agency? Maybe Wildwood and WW is going down the toilet too. According to the ACHA they have at least 1600 units and that does not even include section 8. A lot of those run down rowhomes are probably section 8.
Public housing destroys schools and neighborhoods!!!!!
Please re-read my post. You will find it is about *CAMDEN*, not about *ATLANTIC CITY*. It says there is little public housing in *CAMDEN*.
