OT: Duke Lacrosse 30 for 30

[koleszar]

At the end of the film it said he left the Durham PD in 2008 and committed suicide a couple of years ago. Time to let that one go.

I know he committed suicide but does that really excuse his actions during this case? I mean Benedict Arnold betrayed the Colonist but we still talk about him and he's dead, don't we. Committing suicide does not absolve you of heinous acts committed in your past.

 

[Caliknight]

Doing some research on that guy, it looks like he was accused of a lot more nefarious things than just the Duke lax case.

The group the indicted Duke laxers are involved with want all the conviction cases that Nifong was involved in to be re-opened. I presume this guy was involved in a number of them too.

Let's hope there is more pressure to make that happen now, given these events.

 

[JPhoboken]

Hoboken - I know the party was inappropriate, but this is far from the first time something like this has happened at a college (frat, other sports team, etc.) or 75% of bachelor parties. Puppy, I agree with this, but this was not a bachelor party, it was the Duke Lacrosse team. Many were underaged. Should have done the party without prostitutes. These are not stupid kids, they surely were aware that things could go horribly wrong. 40 guys got together and each put in $20 a piece - guess what if I was 20 years old I would probably put in $20 too. Big jump to say these boy were culpable - bad judgement happens all the time in college - but throwing an ill advised party vs. putting people through hell because of false rape accusations are night and day. I am not really comparing the two. and I am Not condeming them even though they did use poor judgement. And of course I agree false accusations are never right. Those 3 guys who were accused were absolutely destroyed in the court of public opinion and will never get their names back - the first thing I did when the 30 for 30 first came on was look up their 3 names to see where they are now. It is disgusting what happened to them, and in no way, shape or form did they deserve it. I completely agree they didn't deserve what happened, pretty sure I said that in my post, but prostitution is illegal in NC, and even though we know these kinds of parties happen all the time, there are consequences when things go wrong. Yes, what happened to the accused was horrible, and they didn't deserve it, but all I said was I don't think its fair to give them zero culpability. They did plan a party with illegal prostitutes.

It sucks what they went through. And in the end they were exonerated, but planning a party with underage drinking, and illegal prostitutes, well, its always possible for s _ _ t to hit the fan, so in my mind, the duke lacrosse team has to bear some of the responsibility of what happened. No, not 100% but some.

Hoboken - I know the party was inappropriate, but this is far from the first time something like this has happened at a college (frat, other sports team, etc.) or 75% of bachelor parties. Puppy, I agree with this, but this was not a bachelor party, it was the Duke Lacrosse team. Many were underaged. Should have done the party without prostitutes. These are not stupid kids, they surely were aware that things could go horribly wrong. 40 guys got together and each put in $20 a piece - guess what if I was 20 years old I would probably put in $20 too. Big jump to say these boy were culpable - bad judgement happens all the time in college - but throwing an ill advised party vs. putting people through hell because of false rape accusations are night and day. I am not really comparing the two. and I am Not condeming them even though they did use poor judgement. And of course I agree false accusations are never right. Those 3 guys who were accused were absolutely destroyed in the court of public opinion and will never get their names back - the first thing I did when the 30 for 30 first came on was look up their 3 names to see where they are now. It is disgusting what happened to them, and in no way, shape or form did they deserve it. I completely agree they didn't deserve what happened, pretty sure I said that in my post, but prostitution is illegal in NC, and even though we know these kinds of parties happen all the time, there are consequences when things go wrong. Yes, what happened to the accused was horrible, and they didn't deserve it, but all I said was I don't think its fair to give them zero culpability. They did plan a party with illegal prostitutes.

It sucks what they went through. And in the end they were exonerated, but planning a party with underage drinking, and illegal prostitutes, well, its always possible for s _ _ t to hit the fan, so in my mind, the duke lacrosse team has to bear some of the responsibility of what happened. No, not 100% but some.

 

[Caliknight]

They weren't hookers. At least not to those kids. They were strippers. No one had sex with them or tried to.

And even if that were true, which it isn't, it is still 100% wrong what happened. To insinuate otherwise is crazy talk.

 

[RUforJERSEY]

The liberal media is ruining our country. Today, everything is racist, people who are successful are evil, and people should protest for the sake of protesting. The state of the pathetic souls in our country is encouraged by the liberal asshats.

Yeah including who coaches choose to offer football scholarships to right? :rolleyes:

 

[Caliknight]

Hoboken - I know the party was inappropriate, but this is far from the first time something like this has happened at a college (frat, other sports team, etc.) or 75% of bachelor parties. Puppy, I agree with this, but this was not a bachelor party, it was the Duke Lacrosse team. Many were underaged. Should have done the party without prostitutes. These are not stupid kids, they surely were aware that things could go horribly wrong. 40 guys got together and each put in $20 a piece - guess what if I was 20 years old I would probably put in $20 too. Big jump to say these boy were culpable - bad judgement happens all the time in college - but throwing an ill advised party vs. putting people through hell because of false rape accusations are night and day. I am not really comparing the two. and I am Not condeming them even though they did use poor judgement. And of course I agree false accusations are never right. Those 3 guys who were accused were absolutely destroyed in the court of public opinion and will never get their names back - the first thing I did when the 30 for 30 first came on was look up their 3 names to see where they are now. It is disgusting what happened to them, and in no way, shape or form did they deserve it. I completely agree they didn't deserve what happened, pretty sure I said that in my post, but prostitution is illegal in NC, and even though we know these kinds of parties happen all the time, there are consequences when things go wrong. Yes, what happened to the accused was horrible, and they didn't deserve it, but all I said was I don't think its fair to give them zero culpability. They did plan a party with illegal prostitutes.

It sucks what they went through. And in the end they were exonerated, but planning a party with underage drinking, and illegal prostitutes, well, its always possible for s _ _ t to hit the fan, so in my mind, the duke lacrosse team has to bear some of the responsibility of what happened. No, not 100% but some.

You are creating a false narrative to fit your agenda. They weren't prostitutes to those kids and no one had sex with them at that party or tried to. Stop making up your own facts.

 

[miketd1]

I'm pretty sure of all the strippers one has ever come into contact with (pun intended), at least one is/was an escort (legal or otherwise) unbeknownst to you.

 

[Caliknight]

I'm pretty sure of all the strippers one has ever come into contact with (pun intended), at least one is/was an escort (legal or otherwise) unbeknownst to you.

What's that have to do the facts of the case?

 

[CuredbywinningRU]

What this points out - and I'm sorry if this was already mentioned - is that this can happen even to people of privilege from very sophisticated and connected families (I used to work in DC with one of the Dads). Prosecutors and police (and I've had relatives who were cops - one quite senior)get away with a lot of crazy stuff and rarely get caught or punished for it. It's sort of like, in some places, their own private mafia.

So the next time you hear someone without sophistication or clout or resources cry out about police brutality or being railroaded, remember if it can happen to these Duke kids, it can and does happen dozens of times a day to others- especially the poor and those otherwise disenfranchised who have no one to fight for them. And when you hear people describe themselves as "community activists" - a term that so many find offensive - remember that one of the main things they fight for is that the justice system not railroad innocent people. The Duke kids had their own community activists - a very well funded group that made a lot of noise - their parents.

 

[RedSpartan]

Some of you may know this, some may not but the Seligmanns live around the corner from me and the shit that we had to deal with during this whole mess was ridiculous. Reade was receiving death threats from every pathetic liberal militia in the world, police were non-stop scouring our area in response to threats, their lives were made an absolute living hell for a year. Granted Reade got a cool $20 mill. out of this whole ordeal, it's something I'd never want to see anyone endure.

There was months where he was afraid to even go outside because he was afraid someone would try to kill him.

Good to see him come out of this well. Emory Law is an outstanding school and Connell Foley is one of the best firms in New Jersey; filled with good people, not just good lawyers. I speak from experience.

 

[Caliknight]

It goes both ways. People need to let facts come out before jumping to conclusions. That's the reality.

 

[miketd1]

What's that have to do the facts of the case?

I'm saying that just because the girl was an escort and prostitution was illegal doesn't mean the kids knew she was one at the time.

And I'm suggesting that many here have had lapdances from dancers who illegally moonlighted as prostitutes without even knowing it.

So bringing up that the girl was an escort is fairly irrelevant in this case when apparently no money was exchanged for sex.

 

[jmc11201]

What this points out - and I'm sorry if this was already mentioned - is that this can happen even to people of privilege from very sophisticated and connected families (I used to work in DC with one of the Dads). Prosecutors and police (and I've had relatives who were cops - one quite senior)get away with a lot of crazy stuff and rarely get caught or punished for it. It's sort of like, in some places, their own private mafia.

So the next time you hear someone without sophistication or clout or resources cry out about police brutality or being railroaded, remember if it can happen to these Duke kids, it can and does happen dozens of times a day to others- especially the poor and those otherwise disenfranchised who have no one to fight for them. And when you hear people describe themselves as "community activists" - a term that so many find offensive - remember that one of the main things they fight for is that the justice system not railroad innocent people. The Duke kids had their own community activists - a very well funded group that made a lot of noise - their parents.

I agree with this and I think it is commendable that the Duke kids are involved with the Innocence Project and are able to see beyond their own situation.

I have no problem with violent/dangerous criminals being thrown behind bars, but there is a reason we have trials which demand evidence and are designed to give people a fair shake. I have no doubt that most police officers and prosecutors try and do the right thing, but with thousands of cases across the country, I'm sure some get botched or are motivated by getting a conviction as opposed to getting to the truth.

I'm not some liberal...excuse me...'progressive' sympathizer, but everyone deserves a fair shake we should all want justice to be done regardless of race, class, etc. as the more legitimate the criminal justice system the better off we all are.

 

[mdk01]

And when you hear people describe themselves as "community activists" - a term that so many find offensive - remember that one of the main things they fight for is that the justice system not railroad innocent people.

What about the community activist standing in front of the house Evans was renting with a banner that said:

"CASTRATE"

???

 

[koleszar]

What about the community activist standing in front of the house Evans was renting with a banner that said:

"CASTRATE"

???

Community activist are usually the worst. They jump in without knowing any of the facts and are usually only there to support their agenda. They use the incident for free publicity to promote their agenda, facts be damned. Then creep into the night when the facts and truth come out.

 

[Saint Puppy]

Hoboken - I know the party was inappropriate, but this is far from the first time something like this has happened at a college (frat, other sports team, etc.) or 75% of bachelor parties. Puppy, I agree with this, but this was not a bachelor party, it was the Duke Lacrosse team. Many were underaged. Should have done the party without prostitutes. These are not stupid kids, they surely were aware that things could go horribly wrong. 40 guys got together and each put in $20 a piece - guess what if I was 20 years old I would probably put in $20 too. Big jump to say these boy were culpable - bad judgement happens all the time in college - but throwing an ill advised party vs. putting people through hell because of false rape accusations are night and day. I am not really comparing the two. and I am Not condeming them even though they did use poor judgement. And of course I agree false accusations are never right. Those 3 guys who were accused were absolutely destroyed in the court of public opinion and will never get their names back - the first thing I did when the 30 for 30 first came on was look up their 3 names to see where they are now. It is disgusting what happened to them, and in no way, shape or form did they deserve it. I completely agree they didn't deserve what happened, pretty sure I said that in my post, but prostitution is illegal in NC, and even though we know these kinds of parties happen all the time, there are consequences when things go wrong. Yes, what happened to the accused was horrible, and they didn't deserve it, but all I said was I don't think its fair to give them zero culpability. They did plan a party with illegal prostitutes.

It sucks what they went through. And in the end they were exonerated, but planning a party with underage drinking, and illegal prostitutes, well, its always possible for s _ _ t to hit the fan, so in my mind, the duke lacrosse team has to bear some of the responsibility of what happened. No, not 100% but some.

Hoboken I disagree with you - the only things these kids were guilty of was pretty bad judgement in hiring the escorts. The only illegal thing they did by the law was underage drinking, and if you want to enforce that our jails would be overflowing with HS and College kids. Again, they were hardly the first or last group of college kids to hire escorts/dancers - the difference was this one cried rape. I would say what the Duke kids did was a bonehead thing that barely registers on the 'wrong' meter - what boomeranged back at them was probably an '11' on a scale of 1-10. Sorry just can't get on board with you that their actions in any way brought an escort crying rape, a dirty cop and sociopath prosecutor with an agenda who wasn't going to stop at anything until 3 innocent kids lost their freedom.

 

[CuredbywinningRU]

What about the community activist standing in front of the house Evans was renting with a banner that said:

"CASTRATE"

???

There are miscreants in community activist groups, of course (remember Al Shaprton in the Tawana Brawley hoax and, worse, but less publicized, his making a hero of Limerick Nelson, the crown heights murderer who looked for the first Hasidic Jew he could find and killed him and got away with it in the state trial and Sharpton lauded him as a hero), as there are in other groups, such as law enforcement and prosecutors' offices. They're all bad, but the latter groups are much worse because (a) they have all the power (including the power to destroy innocent lives) and little oversight in their day to day activities and (b) when they do evil they are doing it in the taxpayers' name - a true sin.

 

[Caliknight]

The Al Sharpton's of the world are doing it on the taxpayer's dime too, just indirectly.

 

[mdk01]

They're all bad, but the latter groups are much worse because (a) they have all the power (including the power o destroy innocent lives).

Limerick Nelson had the power to destroy an innocent life and did so.

 

[CuredbywinningRU]

Limerick Nelson had the power to destroy an innocent life and did so.

Right, but in the end, despite Sharpton, he was convicted by a federal jury and convicted in another case and won't be out of jail anytime soon. While the majority of cops are brave, decent public defenders, every day cops beat the crap out of someone or worse (including to those in their force who break the code of silence) and they never, ever get punished for it unless someone outside the force reports it and a prosecutor decides to bring charges.

When people hurt cops, there are charges brought 95%+ of the time and all available resources are put into it and you almost always see convictions - as there should be. Throw away the key.

But when cops harm an innocent person or use unreasonable force on a potentially guilty one they get away with it 99% of the time and only get in trouble when there's a video or they do it to someone with clout (ie, the Tennis player in NYC and even then, what was the punishment).

And, as in the case of Eric Garnier, even with a video and a clear violation of NYPD policy and with a cop who had violated he SAME policy before, the cop got away with murder and the only one that pays up is us - the taxpayer in the civil suit. So yes, Sharpton is an A-H and yes Limerick Nelson should have gotten to jail the first time, but in the case of cops, they virtually never get punished for the regular malfeasance that many of them commit, because they usually commit malfeasance on those without the power or the connections to get justice.

 

[CuredbywinningRU]

The Al Sharpton's of the world are doing it on the taxpayer's dime too, just indirectly.

Free speech is a bitch, eh - whether we like it or not. Sharpton is a jerk - a true hypocrite of the lowest order - but he has the same rights as the rich and powerful who hire lobbyists to be their "community activists" to exercise their free speech.

 

[Caliknight]

sa

Free speech is a bitch, eh - whether we like it or not. Sharpton is a jerk - a true hypocrite of the lowest order - but he has the same rights as the rich and powerful who hire lobbyists to be their "community activists" to exercise their free speech.

Who said anything about free speech?

 

[redlight123]

Innocent until proven guilty. That is always forgotten these days. Mob bully mentality tries to prevail.

 

[jerzey devil]

Not guilty by reason of mental defect. I put it much more on Nifong than her. He should have known who he was dealing with.

Pretty hard to know what you're dealing with, when you never once interview the victim!!! still cant get over that!! How do you not once, talk with the alleged "victim"? I'm no lawyer... But isn't that Prosecutor 101?

 

[jerzey devil]

Nifong essentially incited a mass riot by coming out all over the media and saying how the Duke Lax players were absolutely guilty without any evidence or without having anyone specifically indicted so there was nobody to defend themselves. It was both utterly brilliant and utterly insane at the same time. Nifong should be serving a long jail sentence for what he did.

And if this happened in todays day and age? I shudder to think...

 

[Caliknight]

It does. Mike Brown ring a bell?

 

[JPhoboken]

They weren't hookers. At least not to those kids. They were strippers. No one had sex with them or tried to.

And even if that were true, which it isn't, it is still 100% wrong what happened. To insinuate otherwise is crazy talk.

If you are talking about my posts. All I said was that the Duke Lacrosse team shouldn't have zero culbability.

Yes, to be wrongly accused is 100% wrong, and I made that point in every post. No where did I insinuate otherwise.

However, if you think they planned a party with strippers and had no intention of anyone having sex, then you are being a bit naive. Sorry, you know I am right.

 

[Caliknight]

I don't agree with that. Maybe that's what you would do. It's your opinion based on no facts.

 

[redlight123]

Just the facts count. Personal speculation is just that. Spring practice soon.

 

[jmc11201]

If you are talking about my posts. All I said was that the Duke Lacrosse team shouldn't have zero culbability.

Yes, to be wrongly accused is 100% wrong, and I made that point in every post. No where did I insinuate otherwise.

However, if you think they planned a party with strippers and had no intention of anyone having sex, then you are being a bit naive. Sorry, you know I am right.

If being wrongly accused is 100% wrong, that doesn't leave much blame for the lacrosse players...0% if my math is correct.

Should college students hire strippers for a party and engage in underage drinking...well no...but that still doesn't excuse anything.

 

[gringo]

If being wrongly accused is 100% wrong, that doesn't leave much blame for the lacrosse players...0% if my math is correct.

Should college students hire strippers for a party and engage in underage drinking...well no...but that still doesn't excuse anything.

Your chance that something bad will happen increases when you regularly participate in activities of questionable morality. The school should have had better oversight of the team and addressed the community concerns long before that evening.

 

[Caliknight]

What concerns? Underage drinking on a college campus? Good luck with that.

 

[JPhoboken]

So anybody who has ever attended a bachelor party where strippers were hired is culpable if false allegations of rape are made against them?

No, and what did I say that would lead you to

See, this is part of the problem. No one had sex with her. At least none of the players. Maybe you should watch it again before spouting more misinformation.

Lots of that going on these days. People pining their innate beliefs to false stories. Those kids are all doing well now, so at least there is that.

Never said anybody had sex with her. I said planning a party with strippers and underaged drinking leaves the Duke lacrosse team with some culbability. Explain why this is unreasonable.

 

[JPhoboken]

So anybody who has ever attended a bachelor party where strippers were hired is culpable if false allegations of rape are made against them?

Who said anything like this? First of all it was not a bachelor party, it was a party with the lacrosse team, many of whom were not 21. A bachelor party is usually with adults who are old enough to drink. And if there are strippers there performing sex acts, prostitution is illegal, then adults at bachelor parties understand things could go wrong, and there could be consequences.

I was horrified, like everyone by the false rape charges, and malicious prosecution. Of course that was wrong.

But, the Duke Lacrosse team doesn't have zero culpability either.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Who said anything like this? First of all it was not a bachelor party, it was a party with the lacrosse team, many of whom were not 21. A bachelor party is usually with adults who are old enough to drink. And if there are strippers there performing sex acts, prostitution is illegal, then adults at bachelor parties understand things could go wrong, and there could be consequences.

I was horrified, like everyone by the false rape charges, and malicious prosecution. Of course that was wrong.

But, the Duke Lacrosse team doesn't have zero culpability either.

The Duke Lacrosse team has ZERO culpability with being unjustly accused of gang rape.

 

[JPhoboken]

The Duke Lacrosse team has ZERO culpability with being unjustly accused of gang rape.

Yes, and nothing I have written says otherwise. I am talking about culpability of something bad happening. But you knew this already.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Yes, and nothing I have written says otherwise. I am talking about culpability of something bad happening. But you knew this already.

Nope, I read your posts and you are "indirectly" saying that exactly. Stop blaming the victims. They did nothing wrong.

 

[topdecktiger]

A bachelor party is usually with adults who are old enough to drink. And if there are strippers there performing sex acts, prostitution is illegal, then adults at bachelor parties understand things could go wrong, and there could be consequences.

I was horrified, like everyone by the false rape charges, and malicious prosecution. Of course that was wrong.

But, the Duke Lacrosse team doesn't have zero culpability either.

Two points. One, you keep trying to tangentially inject this prostitution angle. The girl didn't have sex with any of the players. There weren't any sex acts going on at the party. If you don't like the stripping itself, fine. If you don't like the underage drinking, fine. But stop interjecting this prostitution angle because it didn't happen.

Point two. You keep wanting to assign some sort of blame to the team. Well, nothing they did justifies false charges, so that goes out the window. Regarding the party itself, they were punished for it. If you paid attention to the documentary (which it seems you didn't), Duke originally made the team forfeit a game against Georgetown. The stated reason was for holding an inappropriate party. Well, that's sufficient to punish them for their culpability. That is enough punishment for the underage drinking and the strippers. That's fair. What isn't fair is to cancel the whole season and to fire the coach. That went beyond reasonable punishment for a common frat party, and it was driven completely by false accusations.

 

[Caliknight]

Culpability of drinking underage. Ok.

They didn't do anything else illegal, and if you are going to take them to too task for that, you are going to have a long line on a college campus.

 

[LotusAggressor]

Was awesome. Ironic it was shown today, a period where we've got a heightened focus on racial-strife and class war.

The general resentments that the community, the media, and the country felt toward those kids was very apparent with all the commentary and the jump to judgement. If they all aren't from rich families with good lawyers, who knows how that all ends.

The thing that left me feeling very uneasy at the end was there was a woman who was willing to pin this heinous crime on two RANDOM BOYS. Like she just picked them out of a hat and ruined their lives. What a nightmare.

Like Susan Smith and Charles Stuart. Two people who blamed their heinous crimes on two IMAGINARY black men.