OT: Electric vehicles
- Thread starter BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap
- Start date
Some highlights from the article:
The E.P.A. regulation is not a ban. It does not mandate the sales of electric vehicles, and gas-powered cars and trucks could still be sold. Rather, it requires carmakers to meet tough new average emissions limits across their entire product line. It’s up to the manufacturers to decide how to comply.
Under the Clean Air Act, the agency can limit the pollution generated by the total number of cars sold each year. E.P.A. officials said automakers could comply with the emissions caps by selling a mix of conventional gasoline-burning cars, hybrids, electric vehicles or other types of vehicles, such as cars powered by hydrogen. The new regulation, which would not apply to sales of used automobiles or light trucks, would take effect starting with model year 2027.
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In writing the final tailpipe regulation, the administration relaxed some elements in a concession to car manufacturers and their biggest union, the United Auto Workers.
Even though major auto companies have been investing substantially in building and marketing all-electric vehicles, they have complained that the pace of change required under the rule as originally proposed a year ago was too rapid.
Rules like EPA's are an effort to technology-force -- to give manufacturers an incentive to develop better technologies. The past history of rules like this shows that EPA will relax the rules in time if they really prove to be impossible to meet. Here the problem is not so much one of making the cars as of selling them, which in turn hinges on the development of a adequate charging infrastructure. There is no way that people are going to buy EVs in large numbers until charging an EV is as easy as going to a gas station to fill up a gasoline-fueled vehicle. Note that making and selling hybrids helps move manufacturers closer to the goals, and I think we will see more and better hybrids.
I was wrong, I’m on 11.4.9. I’ve seen some of the 12.3 videos on YouTube, definitely a step forward
Check this thread out, and the manufacturer. Made in Canada, and not sure if you can buy them in the US.
New Fully Electric Trailer purchased: Pro Light E lounge
I have recently purchased a Pro Light E lounge. It is an electric version of the Lounge model. It has no propane, electric hot water, induction element for cooking, electric heater with digital temperature control, 400 watts solar and 200 amp hour lithium battery. 2000 watt inverter etc. sleeps...
www.f150lightningforum.com
Roulotte: eLounge 2024 | Roulottes Prolite
www.roulottesprolite.com
There is a dealer in Western Pennsylvania that sells Pro Lite. Not the model above, but here is an E-Trailer:
Travel Lite RVs for Sale - RV Dealer in Pennsylvania
Travel Lite RVs for sale. We stock Rove Lite travel trailers & Up Country truck campers for sale at RV Leaders & Camping Outlet in Pennsylvania.
Too ugly to park in the driveway all the time.Check this thread out, and the manufacturer. Made in Canada, and not sure if you can buy them in the US.
New Fully Electric Trailer purchased: Pro Light E lounge
I have recently purchased a Pro Light E lounge. It is an electric version of the Lounge model. It has no propane, electric hot water, induction element for cooking, electric heater with digital temperature control, 400 watts solar and 200 amp hour lithium battery. 2000 watt inverter etc. sleeps...
Roulotte: eLounge 2024 | Roulottes Prolite
There is a dealer in Western Pennsylvania that sells Pro Lite. Not the model above, but here is an E-Trailer:
Travel Lite RVs for Sale - RV Dealer in Pennsylvania
Travel Lite RVs for sale. We stock Rove Lite travel trailers & Up Country truck campers for sale at RV Leaders & Camping Outlet in Pennsylvania.www.rvleaders.com
Knee-jerk talking point is off-point, as usual with the tin-foil hat types so prevalent on this board. If you actually followed the issue, instead of just following the 'drill baby drill' crowd you might read the whole article.
For all the rule’s aggressive goals, POLITICO and other outlets reported in February that the agency had relaxed the measure’s initial ramp-up in response to criticism from car companies and auto workers.
The revised rule is a reasonable compromise.
And if it turns out that the manufacturers can't do it, EPA will relax the rule. There's a lot of history of that. The idea is to make the manufacturers to try hard.
The problem (if I may put on my professorial hat) is what economists call market failure. No one bears the entire cost of global warming (I know you don't think that's a problem, but others disagree) and so manufacturers will underinvest in developing vehicles that will help remedy the problem. That's why regulation is thought appropriate. This kind of strategy helped force the manufacturers to develop catalytic converters and other controls on auto emissions. It can work here too. If it doesn't, EPA will back off on the rules. But at least the manufacturers now have an incentive to try.
I was in the midst of explaining, yet again, why that won't work here. But I deleted it.
I realized that the reason why "letting the market dictate" cannot work is, in this case, very obvious and easy to understand. So there are really only two reasons anybody would say "let the market dictate" here. Either: (1) you already know why it won't work but enjoy regurgitating irrelevant ideological propaganda, or (2) you're cognitively incapable of understanding even the most obvious of cause and effect scenarios.
I suppose it could be both things. Either way, it would be a total waste of time to explain it.
So how's weather? 😉
The EPA doesn't back off, they just retrench to push forward later. CAFE standards are poorly constructed and have ruined the US auto market.
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Excuse me, but this is an inappropriate response. I taught law for a living. What some people find "obvious" other people don't. It doesn't mean that those other people are evil or stupid. That's why I tried to explain the point above.
He means the market "dictating" rather than the government "forcing." I'm sure you would agree it's a valid distinction. The market "dictates" the price of groceries rather than the government "forcing" groceries to be sold at a certain price.
The EPA doesn't set CAFE standards; the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration does.
OK, but the point still stands. This ridiculous government over reach is making cars too expensive, giving the consumer little choice and having very little, if any, impact on the environment.
Thats the whole point the idea that any of this will change anything is based on little evidence
Experience is often the best evidence. No one, not even the auto industry, says that the catalytic converter and other basic pollution controls on cars would have come about without Congress imposing strict deadlines. That's the most dramatic case but there are others.
Lots of history between Bac and intelligent, informed, people trying to explain stuff to him that you aren’t aware of, mostly on the CE board over the years. And I didn’t say anything about anybody being evil.
Also, I didn’t say there was anything inherently bad about stupid people. Just said that there’s no point trying to explain, if they cannot see something so incredibly obvious. And it is incredibly obvious to anybody paying any attention at all.
We’re not talking about LSAT scores here. We’re talking about people who can’t form basic analogies at all, who are incapable of most abstract reasoning. ‘Cause if you can do those things, you can understand why government has to incentivize automakers in this case.
And I’ve explained what you just explained to Bac earlier today, at least 4 times in this thread alone. To Bac. He either cannot or will not get it.
There's one thing we know about @bac2therac: he is not stupid. If he were, he wouldn't be able to do "bactology" so well. He's not "incapable of most abstract reasoning." He did a lot of it in his threads.
Is he deliberately not understanding, as you suggest he might be? Maybe, but maybe not. Speaking as a long-time professor, I must tell you that what is obvious to one person is not obvious to another --and that what seems obvious is sometimes wrong.
I used to be on the CE board, and so yes, I know Bac's history. But he is obviously a smart guy. (BTW, he's not the only poster on that board who is smart but has views I strongly disagree with.)
In any case, everybody is entitled to be addressed with a certain level of civility -- and, IMHO, you failed to do so.
Again, what you explained to him has already been explained to him a bunch of times. Civilly.
His willful ignorance doesn‘t warrant unlimited civility. Feel free to disagree.
What politicians are duping me? I don’t support any of them. I don’t pay any attention to any of them. So how are they duping me? Are they beaming thoughts into my head from satellites while I sleep?
None of my views are motivated by politics. I hate politics.
Also, I am not yet at all convinced that EV adoption will result in meaningful reductions in human carbon production. There will be an impact. But will it be enough to matter? The jury is still out. Perhaps hybridization will be a better solution when all factors are considered.
And I am concerned with the impact of too-rapid adoption of EVs on our aging electrical infrastructure.
So tell me which political narrative you think I’m espousing? Which narrative am I being duped by?
I'm not a naturally patient person. Being a professor taught me to be. It also taught me to recognize that some people just don't get what I'm trying to explain, and that it's not their fault nor is due to willfulness.. Even the best teacher wouldn't be able to get me to understand, say, nuclear physics. We don't have the same talents. Nor do we have the same outlook. I was not raised as a Christian, and there are a lot of Christian doctrines that others sincerely believe that I just cannot fathom.
If you are frustrated by someone and you feel you've tried your best, often the best approach is to just give up. You accomplish nothing by anger except to hurt yourself.
BTW (and I should have made this clear in my post), I am writing to you this way because you have shown that you are a person who can be reasoned with.
I am not so patient with people (obviously 😀).
I love learning new things and prefer debating stuff civilly with reasonable people such as you. But I have a very low tolerance for ideological rigidity and extremism. And even lower tolerance for propagandizing.
Thus I’ve been less than fully civil, at times, to people who propagandize too strongly for or against EVs.
I mentioned hydrogen powered vehicles above. This is really interesting. @retired711 wonder if legislators will jump on board and put favorable incentives in place for hydrogen- powered vehicles. The trucks have long range- 500 miles. "Refueling" on takes 20 minutes.
electrek.co
Nikola inaugurates first HYLA modular hydrogen refueling station in Ontario, CA
Nikola wants to build 14 of these stations in California this year, but for now the station is still quite temporary.
electrek.co
Why a small China-made EV has global auto execs and politicians on edge
The China-built BYD Seagull, a compact all-electric hatchback, starts at just 69,800 yuan (or less than $10,000).
At that price, tax incentives will not make a difference for US auto
The concept of hydrogen-powered vehicles isn't new. One key problem here is that some ways of producing hydrogen are environmentally problematic, to say the least. (Of course that's a problem with the electricity used to power EVs - coal remains a generating fuel, although it's not nearly as important as it used to be.) The Inflation Reduction Act contains a tax credit for production of clean hydrogen. The IRS has proposed implementing regulations, and there's a lot of debate about how clean the production process must be to qualify for the credit.I mentioned hydrogen powered vehicles above. This is really interesting. @retired711 wonder if legislators will jump on board and put favorable incentives in place for hydrogen- powered vehicles. The trucks have long range- 500 miles. "Refueling" on takes 20 minutes.
Nikola inaugurates first HYLA modular hydrogen refueling station in Ontario, CA
Nikola wants to build 14 of these stations in California this year, but for now the station is still quite temporary.
The irony...........
Hydrogen’s problems remain - creating hydrogen fuel takes massive amounts of energy. Clean hydrogen would require clean energy sources, such as nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal, etc. if one thinks the EV charging network is subpar, Google the North America map of hydrogen fueling stations. Last time I checked, someone from NJ would need to schlep up to Montreal (no joke).
Edited to add that I am somewhat more bullish on the potential for using hydrogen to fuel specific heavy duty truck fleets. Fueling stations could be located at/near ports and important intermodal transfer centers or at hubs of private trucking companies (they tend to be located near ports and transfer centers).
Trucking, rail, & buses I give a non-zero chance.
As for personal transport, it's idiotic to still have these conversations. Not happening.
Indian Point was antiquated and I thought the military should have been running it until it could be "REASONABLY" shuttered. The location was just too awkward.
Alas none of the "green energy" fairy tales came true (as expected). This is one of the reasons few rational people trust these agendas that only benefit pols, NGOs, CCP etc while ordinary people get crushed by higher bills, rent, foreign invasions wrecking hospitals etc. Now that the EV market is a mess the gov doubles down with their "eff-yous" and suicidal mandates. CCP is happy.
Even lefties now admit closing the Indian Point nuclear plant actually HARMED the planet
Those cheering the Biden administration’s electric-vehicle mandates or Gov. Hochul’s offshore wind farms would be wise to heed a painful and embarrassing lesson New York is learning from its past.…
nypost.com
Pulled up behind @Caliknight today. Congrats on the new car, I know you’re gonna love it.
