Refs could not act on either of them properly both when they got fouled and when they foul others. Shaq and Lebron are so overwhelmingly strong that they often got away with blatant fouls, like Lebron's stiff arms when driving.
OT: Lebron
- Thread starter RUfanSinceAnderson
- Start date
Yes, the poster to whom I responded when I made that comment was arguing that very point.
Again, you are overestimating the Bulls' roster. You mentioned 1st Round picks. The 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers had 8 1st round picks on the roster. By way of comparison, the 2007 San Antonio team that beat Cleveland in the finals also had 8 first round picks, so your argument on that point doesn't really hold water. The NBA only has two rounds so most teams are going to have a lot of 1st round picks on their roster.
They really are almost playing a different game. You can't really defend them without more physical contact than you'd use against a smaller player, and actions that are less consequential from a smaller player are much more impactful to defenders because of their size and strength.
Someone like Steph Curry could hit James on the upper arm/shoulder very hard and bounce off... whereas if James did the same thing to him, Curry would go flying.
So somehow you're saying that a 2007 Cavs losing their 2nd best player after Game 2 and dropping Games 3 & 4 by a combined 6 points.... somehow therefore means that I'm overestimating the Bulls roster? o_O
The 2007 Cavs team had a couple of strong complementary parts in Hughes and Gooden in James' 4th year, and they made it to the Finals. Hughes then went down, leaving the Cavs without their 2nd best player in two close losses at home to end the series.
Do the Spurs win if situations were reversed, and Tony Parker were lost for the series instead of Hughes?
Do the Bulls win in 1991 if Pippen were lost for the rest of the series after Game 2? Game 3 went to OT, and Game 4 saw Pippen as the leading scorer/rebounder with 32 and 13.
Injuries are part of the game - but when they happen in the Finals to one of your top players, they're a killer. Same happened in 2015 with the Cavs when Irving and Love went down for the Finals.
...
Of course, both Hughes and Gooden were then traded a year after that Finals appearance and replaced with... Mo Williams and Delonte West? Writing was pretty much on the wall at that point that James was going to look for an organization that would build a consistent team around him.
Now you're just grasping at straws. You made an ill-informed argument, by making the basis of your argument 1st round picks. Now you are shifting your argument to injuries.
No, you're just bad at following an argument.
The 1st round pick data was support for the argument, not the argument itself. Argument: The Bulls organization did a much better job building a strong team and staff around Jordan than the Cavs did around James.
In the 11 years that James has played for the Cavs, they've put together a strong team around him 4 times in years he's gone to the Finals.
2007 - Best complementary piece gets injured during Finals. Bad luck.
2015 - Best two complementary pieces get injured prior to Finals. Again bad luck.
2016 - Won title
2017 - Prior Finals opponent added Kevin Durant in offseason, while Cavs didn't add any other stars.
What's interesting to me is that following both 2007 and 2015, the Cavs ended up trading away their best complementary piece for very little in return... and I'm pretty sure in both instances, the result will be James leaving for a team that better understands how to build a team around a superstar.
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The 1st round pick data didn't support your argument.
You can't limit the argument to the Cavaliers, or to one year. There was never a "Big 3" on the Bulls like there was with the Heat or Cavaliers. Neither Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman were the offensive threats that Kevin Love or Chris Bosh were. As for the rest of the roster, my original argument stands. You can't claim that players like John Paxon, Steve Kerr, Bill Cartwright, Ron Harper, etc. were significantly better than the Cavaliers or Heat teams.
Lebron had Ray Allen, Wade in his prime and Bosch in his prime. Those Miami teams were stacked with talent. Way more than the Bulls.
They were really great the second and third years they were together. The first year they should have won but didn't have a full compliment of role players. Year 4 they were relying too heavily on guys for whom the game had passed them by. Wade was a shell and he wasn't the only guy getting long in the tooth.
Totally missing the point.
Not talking about the Heat teams. James *left* a dysfunctional Cavs organization to go find help in Miami, and he got it - winning 2 rings.
The Cavs struggled to put talent around James during his first run with them from 2003-2010. They had a good year with James/Hughes/Gooden/Ilgauskas, but Hughes got hurt in the Finals and they lost. The following year, the Cavs traded away Hughes/Gooden mid-season and James was left facing a stacked Celtics team without his #2/#3 from the prior year.
During the same first 7 years, the Bulls built a team of strong players around Jordan, headlined by Pippen and Grant in the 1987 class and Phil Jackson as coach in 1989. That team replaced Jordan with Kukoc in 1993-94.. and put 3 guys in the NBA All Star game that year and still made the Eastern Conference Semis, but fell short of having a championship caliber team without Jordan. Then Jordan came back along with Rodman - and the Bulls had an even stronger 1995-96 team, which is heralded as one of the best ever, setting a win total that wasn't topped until Golden State did it 20 years later.
Not talking about the Heat teams. James *left* a dysfunctional Cavs organization to go find help in Miami, and he got it - winning 2 rings.
The Cavs struggled to put talent around James during his first run with them from 2003-2010. They had a good year with James/Hughes/Gooden/Ilgauskas, but Hughes got hurt in the Finals and they lost. The following year, the Cavs traded away Hughes/Gooden mid-season and James was left facing a stacked Celtics team without his #2/#3 from the prior year.
During the same first 7 years, the Bulls built a team of strong players around Jordan, headlined by Pippen and Grant in the 1987 class and Phil Jackson as coach in 1989. That team replaced Jordan with Kukoc in 1993-94.. and put 3 guys in the NBA All Star game that year and still made the Eastern Conference Semis, but fell short of having a championship caliber team without Jordan. Then Jordan came back along with Rodman - and the Bulls had an even stronger 1995-96 team, which is heralded as one of the best ever, setting a win total that wasn't topped until Golden State did it 20 years later.
Not arguing that they weren't - not talking about the Heat teams. That's where James *went* to find the support that the Bulls had built up for Jordan.
The James/Wade/Bosh/Allen unit won 2 rings in 3 appearances. That 2014 Finals is definitely a black mark, though. Yes, the Spurs were stacked that year, but it should have been 3 in a row, and instead they got blown out in 5.
You keep talking about how good those Bulls players were, but you keep talking about Pippen. They simply weren't great players.
cali...your new argument is that losing in the finals in 2014 to the Spurs points to MJ being a better player than Lebron ?
Your other argument was "being 6-0 in Finals means MJ had more heart." Did Bill Russell have nearly twice the heart as MJ with11 wins ? Silly,huh ?
Stick to the pertinent question: what basketball skill is MJ better at ? Answer: none. MJ is top 2 all time guard with Oscar. Lebron is in the discussion with Kareem, Wilt and Russell for greatest player ever.
Your other argument was "being 6-0 in Finals means MJ had more heart." Did Bill Russell have nearly twice the heart as MJ with11 wins ? Silly,huh ?
Stick to the pertinent question: what basketball skill is MJ better at ? Answer: none. MJ is top 2 all time guard with Oscar. Lebron is in the discussion with Kareem, Wilt and Russell for greatest player ever.
Pippen wasn't a great player?
Or is that mangled sentence trying to say that anyone other than Pippen wasn't a great player?
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It's yet another data point. Put Jordan that Miami team and he's looking at 73 wins an a championship.
I already gave you examples. He was better at getting to the rim and finishing. He was a better defender. I'd have to see the stats on shooting. And he had more heart and was a better champion having won more titles with subpar talent.
Lol, second greatest guard. I'd take Kobe over Lebron. So would millions of others.
Jordan never had the support that he had on the Heat. Bosh was in his prime and an All Star and so was Wade, who is a top 75 players. Ray Allen was on the downside, but his skill set consists of shooting, and he was still doing that at the elite level. Throw in excellent defensive role players like Haslem, Battier, and Anderson, along with solid backups in Chalmers and scorer Rashad Lewis, and you are staring at a deep, super talent roster.
How they actually lost is a miracle.
He wad incredible tonight but isn't as consistent as Lebron. He sandwiches games like this between games that are all star, but not all timer. Just like Curry set the record for 3s last game and then is 3 of 16 tonight.
Yeah, that third season with Allen was a "wtf" finals - no idea how that group was so bad so consistently across that series. Yes, it was Spoelstra vs. Popovich, but the talent should have overcome any coaching deficiencies.
Jordan went more to the rim in his first threepeat, but shot more from the outside after he returned for his second - very much taking advantage of the shortened three point arc. Strictly from a scoring perspective, James is a better shooter from distance and better with his back to the basket (largely due to his size), but Jordan was better off the dribble. Outside of scoring, James is a better passer and rebounder, while Jordan was better defensively (within the much more lax contact rules of his time) which includes steals.
But back to the concept, too, that they play different roles on the team. Jordan's the greatest shooting guard ever, without really any argument. Oscar Robertson was a point guard, and James is a small forward (or even a "point forward" like Magic).
The question at small forward is likely going to come down to James vs. Durant for greatest ever, which again gets into the "what supporting cast does he have" conversations when it comes to rings. While he had strong supporting pieces at OKC, he couldn't get them over the hump and left for what is essentially an all-star team in GS.
The Cavs will likely get swept on Friday, as expected. Take out the James/Durant matchup, and they are behind at nearly every position.
Durant for his career has been a no show in a lot of playoff games. Also said openly he doesn't want to be a leader to carry a team.
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And will very likely will be 18-31 before the week is out. This team can't compete with Golden State.
lol
Right now the only question is which Eastern Conference team James will take to the Finals to face Golden State next year.
He carried the team last night. He got nothing from the other stars.
Jordan never lost a finals series much less got swept.
And most of those were on a team with 3 other all stars.
So what? Neither of the comments dispute the fact that Lebron is the better player.
And Congrats to Durant for finally showing up in a playoff game.
In Finals games alongside 2 other stars (either Wade/Bosh or Irving/Love), he's 16-19 with 3 rings in 5 tries. In games without 2 other stars, he's 2-11 (and likely soon to be 2-12) with 0 rings in 3 (soon to be 4) tries.
In Finals games alongside 2 other stars (either Pippen/Grant or Pippen/Rodman), Jordan was 24-11 with 6 rings in 6 tries. In games without 2 other stars... there's no data, since he never played in a Finals game without 2 other stars.
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Allen was an all star. Let's not forget him. And the supporting cast on those Miami teams was very good. How he lost with that squad speaks volumes.
Put KD on Cleveland right now and they are in the same position.
Put KD on Cleveland right now and they are in the same position.
Sure - should have said "at least" 2 other stars for both. Miami teams were no doubt extra stacked once Allen arrived in Year 2, and that Year 4 collapse that sent Allen into retirement was especially bad.
Swap KD/LBJ between GS/Cleveland, and the results would very likely be the same. Golden State is just stacked.
Swap KD/LBJ between GS/Cleveland, and the results would very likely be the same. Golden State is just stacked.
With Colangelo out, the path looks clear for the Sixers to hire David Griffin, sign James, and set up a Celtics/76ers showdown in the playoffs for the next year's Eastern Conference Finals bid.
Anything to keep Lebron out of LA. Sixers sound perfect!
Of course, he spends his whole offseason here like most pro athletes, so that's enough.
Of course, he spends his whole offseason here like most pro athletes, so that's enough.
[QUOTE="RUChoppin, post: 3324440, member: 2738"The question at small forward is likely going to come down to James vs. Durant for greatest ever....[/QUOTE]
Are you old enough to have seen Bird play?
Are you old enough to have seen Bird play?
But they were better. Especially than the role players on Cleveland. Harper was a former all-star, Kerr and Paxson were knock down shooters who could also put the floor a bit. Far different than a guy like Kyle Korver who is useless other than when wide open and we know about JR Smith. Cartwright was a solid big man who had range outside of the paint, unlike a guy like Tristan Thompson who is not threat on anything but putbacks. Same with Nance JR. And don't forget the Bulls also had Toni Kukoc who was one of the best 6th men around. Add it up and they had a lot more firepower on their roster than do the Cavs. At no other position would I give a nod to the Cavs vs. those Bulls teams. And that includes Kevin Love and his matador defense. No need to even discuss the reserves its that strong in the Bulls favor.
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Yeah, the latter part of his career. Another legendary player - but even in his prime not as good as either James or Durant.
It's funny, too, since I remember him from way back as being this great outside shooter... when he only had a total of 729 made threes in his career, and never had more than 98 in a regular season (and topped 90 just twice). Three pointers were just that much less common back then, so him making a few here and there seemed like a lot, I guess. By comparison, 104 players had more made threes just this regular season than Bird's highest ever total.
