OT: Plane and helicopter collide in DC

[ashokan]

Obviously this wasn't a small change in the young man's schedule but whenever tragedies happen I always think about the small changes in someone's schedule that drastically altered their lives that day.

I recall the people late to work at WTC because of NYGs playing late on MNF.

I was once a week late to a friend's house to pick-up some books.
Not long after apologizing I ended-up saving her choking baby who was turning blue.
Pays to be kinda zen about life's curve balls

 

[RULoyal]

I recall the people late to work a WTC because of NYGs playing late on MNF.

I was once a week late to a friend's house to pick-up some books.
Not long after apologizing I ended-up saving her choking baby who was turning blue.
Pays to be kinda zen about life's curve balls

Very true. You could drive yourself crazy dwelling on these things too much.

 

[RAC93]

It was a bit odd to ask to see the messages, but the reporter is just doing their job.

This Is an awful tragedy. So many lives lost.

It was bad enough to pepper him with questions at such a time, but to ask to see the text messages? Totally unnecessary, just take his word for it. It was like the reporter didn’t believe him, really bad form by the journalist and wasn’t necessary for his job, he could just interview him and take his answers at face value. He should have just left the guy alone, given him some space and grace with class.

 

[RULoyal]

Rest assured, Zap.

@DJ Spanky

 

[DJ Spanky]

@DJ Spanky

Way ahead of you!

 

[RU4Real]

So everyone can understand, and avoid speculation.

As a reminder, I'm a USAF vet with ATC experience, a licensed pilot and scored perfect on the ATC entrance exam in 1992, only to have my invitation / job offer rescinded when GHWB froze ATC hiring upon taking office.

Setup: AA5342 was on an ILS approach to DCA Runway 1. At the outer marker he asked ATC for a visual approach / circle to land on R33. This is common. The CRJ can land shorter than larger aircraft (R1 is ~6900' long, R33 is 5200' long and the turnoff places them closer to their arrival gate) so the request is not unusual. ATC has the authority to either grant or deny.

PAT25 (the SH-60 Blackhawk) was headed south alongside the Potomac and requested clearance to transit the airport's Class C airspace on a course that would intersect the approaches for both R1 and R33. That clearance was granted.

It should be noted that the 2 events - AA5342 deviating from its approach to R1 and PAT25 transiting the airspace across the approach path - would have created a distraction for the approach controller by invoking 2 events that, while not unexpected, were exceptional with regard to the normal traffic flow.

The controller asked PAT25 if he had visually acquired the CRJ. The helo pilot responded in the affirmative so the controller issued an instruction for the SH-60 to pass behind the jet.

This would have been perfectly fine if PAT25 had, in fact, acquired a visual target that actually was AA5342. In the visual confusion of all the lights in the area, it's clear that what he thought was a CRJ on approach to R33 was, in fact, something completely different.

The resulting error (failure to "see and avoid") on the part of the PAT25 crew resulted in the collision.

Ultimately the NTSB will likely conclude that the "see and avoid" failure was determinant.

However, some logical blame also lies with the controller. With multiple aircraft on final approach, he could easily have refused PAT25's initial request with the instruction to "avoid the Class C". Additionally, rather than pass responsibility for separation to the helo pilot - at night, in congested airspace, with multiple converging targets, he could have "handled" the SH-60 by instructing it to make a shallow left turn which would have put it, with 100% certainty, behind and underneath the CRJ.

Objectively, this is just a tragedy. But all aviation tragedies are rooted in human error, at some point along the way. We should insist that federal authorities work to ensure that procedures - and training - are grounded in common sense and logic and that traffic flow around airports like DCA (which is, at all times, an accident waiting to happen) is closely examined and appropriate remediation steps are taken.

 

[RUPete]

It was bad enough to pepper him with questions at such a time, but to ask to see the text messages? Totally unnecessary, just take his word for it. It was like the reporter didn’t believe him, really bad form by the journalist and wasn’t necessary for his job, he could just interview him and take his answers at face value. He should have just left the guy alone, given him some space and grace with class.

I agree with this. Not sure what it added to the story. I think the only reason that he went ahead and shared the message was that he was in complete shock at the time.

 

[RUPete]

I was hoping RU4Real would weigh in on this.

 

[29PAS]

So everyone can understand, and avoid speculation.

As a reminder, I'm a USAF vet with ATC experience, a licensed pilot and scored perfect on the ATC entrance exam in 1992, only to have my invitation / job offer rescinded when GHWB froze ATC hiring upon taking office.

Setup: AA5342 was on an ILS approach to DCA Runway 1. At the outer marker he asked ATC for a visual approach / circle to land on R33. This is common. The CRJ can land shorter than larger aircraft (R1 is ~6900' long, R33 is 5200' long and the turnoff places them closer to their arrival gate) so the request is not unusual. ATC has the authority to either grant or deny.

PAT25 (the SH-60 Blackhawk) was headed south alongside the Potomac and requested clearance to transit the airport's Class C airspace on a course that would intersect the approaches for both R1 and R33. That clearance was granted.

It should be noted that the 2 events - AA5342 deviating from its approach to R1 and PAT25 transiting the airspace across the approach path - would have created a distraction for the approach controller by invoking 2 events that, while not unexpected, were exceptional with regard to the normal traffic flow.

The controller asked PAT25 if he had visually acquired the CRJ. The helo pilot responded in the affirmative so the controller issued an instruction for the SH-60 to pass behind the jet.

This would have been perfectly fine if PAT25 had, in fact, acquired a visual target that actually was AA5342. In the visual confusion of all the lights in the area, it's clear that what he thought was a CRJ on approach to R33 was, in fact, something completely different.

The resulting error (failure to "see and avoid") on the part of the PAT25 crew resulted in the collision.

Ultimately the NTSB will likely conclude that the "see and avoid" failure was determinant.

However, some logical blame also lies with the controller. With multiple aircraft on final approach, he could easily have refused PAT25's initial request with the instruction to "avoid the Class C". Additionally, rather than pass responsibility for separation to the helo pilot - at night, in congested airspace, with multiple converging targets, he could have "handled" the SH-60 by instructing it to make a shallow left turn which would have put it, with 100% certainty, behind and underneath the CRJ.

Objectively, this is just a tragedy. But all aviation tragedies are rooted in human error, at some point along the way. We should insist that federal authorities work to ensure that procedures - and training - are grounded in common sense and logic and that traffic flow around airports like DCA (which is, at all times, an accident waiting to happen) is closely examined and appropriate remediation steps are taken.

Thanks 4Real for the info. I read a report somewhere this am that the PAT25 crew were using night-vision equipment. Have you heard that? I would imagine that could have some implications.

 

[iReC89]

However, some logical blame also lies with the controller. With multiple aircraft on final approach, he could easily have refused PAT25's initial request with the instruction to "avoid the Class C". Additionally, rather than pass responsibility for separation to the helo pilot - at night, in congested airspace, with multiple converging targets, he could have "handled" the SH-60 by instructing it to make a shallow left turn which would have put it, with 100% certainty, behind and underneath the CRJ.

I heard the plane probably had its collision detection system off because it doesn't work well at low altitudes, but does ATC have any kind of system to warn about an impending collision? They didn't have much time to react to the misunderstanding, but it seems there should have been, in an ideal world, an alert that the problem had not been corrected, or is that beyond the capabilities of the systems in use?

 

[LETSGORU91]

My nephew was flying a Blackhawk in the area just prior to this. Close enough time frame and within the same scope that he feared the copter involved was the one he just handed off. It wasn't the same Blackhawk. Asking @RU4Real , wouldn't the computer systems have picked up an imminent collision and alerted the ATC, provided the two deviations were entered into the respective flight patterns?

 

[zappaa]

I heard the plane probably had its collision detection system off because it doesn't work well at low altitudes, but does ATC have any kind of system to warn about an impending collision? They didn't have much time to react to the misunderstanding, but it seems there should have been, in an ideal world, an alert that the problem had not been corrected, or is that beyond the capabilities of the systems in use?

Why not remove the copters from the equation by not allowing them in final approach air space?

 

[RU4Real]

Thanks 4Real for the info. I read a report somewhere this am that the PAT25 crew were using night-vision equipment. Have you heard that? I would imagine that could have some implications.

I haven't heard anything about NVGs, although it wouldn't be unusual for these crews to do so. Depending on type, they can be prone to light saturation which could be distracting.

I heard the plane probably had its collision detection system off because it doesn't work well at low altitudes, but does ATC have any kind of system to warn about an impending collision? They didn't have much time to react to the misunderstanding, but it seems there should have been, in an ideal world, an alert that the problem had not been corrected, or is that beyond the capabilities of the systems in use?

TCAS wasn't "off". It's designed & configured to automatically suppress alerts below 500 feet. If you think about it, it makes sense - their extrapolated course is directly toward the ground / airport, so any aircraft on the tarmac with its transponder on is going to interpreted as a potential collision target.

Yes - ATC radars have similar algorithms built in. Back when it was first implemented we called it the "snitch patch" because the avoidance limitations built in were quite commonly at a more conservative threshold than pilots and controllers were accustomed to, so the software would alert frequently. On the radar playback from last night (actual radar, not ADS-B systems that are common on the internet) you can see the target symbol representing PAT25 start flashing red right before the collision. There is a period of about 7 seconds where the controller's display was alerting, but there was no corresponding action from the controller. Again, he may have just assumed it was a "near miss" since the UH-60 pilot had confirmed visual acquisition.

Why not remove the copters from the equation by not allowing them in final approach air space?

That's a good - and entirely actionable - question.

There have been numerous occasions when I was denied airspace transit by controllers - most commonly at TTN. My guess is that the controller was trying to accommodate the Blackhawk because those flights are a common occurrence and considered routine.

100% my own opinion, it was a bad idea. And it was an especially bad idea to hand off separation to the helo pilot. The whole tragedy is avoided with a simple "PAT25, traffic your 12:00 and 1 mile is a CRJ on final to Runway 33. Turn left 20 degrees." That one basic call and 67 people are alive today.

 

[T2Kplus20]

So everyone can understand, and avoid speculation.

As a reminder, I'm a USAF vet with ATC experience, a licensed pilot and scored perfect on the ATC entrance exam in 1992, only to have my invitation / job offer rescinded when GHWB froze ATC hiring upon taking office.

Setup: AA5342 was on an ILS approach to DCA Runway 1. At the outer marker he asked ATC for a visual approach / circle to land on R33. This is common. The CRJ can land shorter than larger aircraft (R1 is ~6900' long, R33 is 5200' long and the turnoff places them closer to their arrival gate) so the request is not unusual. ATC has the authority to either grant or deny.

PAT25 (the SH-60 Blackhawk) was headed south alongside the Potomac and requested clearance to transit the airport's Class C airspace on a course that would intersect the approaches for both R1 and R33. That clearance was granted.

It should be noted that the 2 events - AA5342 deviating from its approach to R1 and PAT25 transiting the airspace across the approach path - would have created a distraction for the approach controller by invoking 2 events that, while not unexpected, were exceptional with regard to the normal traffic flow.

The controller asked PAT25 if he had visually acquired the CRJ. The helo pilot responded in the affirmative so the controller issued an instruction for the SH-60 to pass behind the jet.

This would have been perfectly fine if PAT25 had, in fact, acquired a visual target that actually was AA5342. In the visual confusion of all the lights in the area, it's clear that what he thought was a CRJ on approach to R33 was, in fact, something completely different.

The resulting error (failure to "see and avoid") on the part of the PAT25 crew resulted in the collision.

Ultimately the NTSB will likely conclude that the "see and avoid" failure was determinant.

However, some logical blame also lies with the controller. With multiple aircraft on final approach, he could easily have refused PAT25's initial request with the instruction to "avoid the Class C". Additionally, rather than pass responsibility for separation to the helo pilot - at night, in congested airspace, with multiple converging targets, he could have "handled" the SH-60 by instructing it to make a shallow left turn which would have put it, with 100% certainty, behind and underneath the CRJ.

Objectively, this is just a tragedy. But all aviation tragedies are rooted in human error, at some point along the way. We should insist that federal authorities work to ensure that procedures - and training - are grounded in common sense and logic and that traffic flow around airports like DCA (which is, at all times, an accident waiting to happen) is closely examined and appropriate remediation steps are taken.

Was hoping you were going to post on this topic. Very interesting and logical. I had DCA's map up while reading your analysis. Crystal clear what happened. Thanks!

 

[ashokan]

I heard a couple military pilots call to shows and they mentioned communication and sighting issues. One mentioned night vision goggle issues (some colors - red vs green - better than others for taillights)

The father of one of the crashed pilots also metioned the goggles


"One of the pilots who flew the American Airlines plane that crashed with a military helicopter was identified as Sam Lilley, 28.

Timothy Lilley, Sam’s father, said his entire family was heartbroken after learning his son was aboard the doomed plane.

"This is undoubtedly the worst day of my life," Timothy told Fox 5 Atlanta.

Timothy, a veteran Army helicopter pilot, suggested the crash was caused by the chopper given the nighttime conditions in Washington during the incident.

"In the '90s, I used to fly in and out of the Pentagon regularly, and I can tell you if you are flying on the route over the Potomac and wearing night vision goggles, it's going to be very hard to see that plane. If you're not wearing the goggles, then you might have a chance," he said. "

 

[krup]

I haven't heard anything about NVGs, although it wouldn't be unusual for these crews to do so. Depending on type, they can be prone to light saturation which could be distracting.



TCAS wasn't "off". It's designed & configured to automatically suppress alerts below 500 feet. If you think about it, it makes sense - their extrapolated course is directly toward the ground / airport, so any aircraft on the tarmac with its transponder on is going to interpreted as a potential collision target.

Yes - ATC radars have similar algorithms built in. Back when it was first implemented we called it the "snitch patch" because the avoidance limitations built in were quite commonly at a more conservative threshold than pilots and controllers were accustomed to, so the software would alert frequently. On the radar playback from last night (actual radar, not ADS-B systems that are common on the internet) you can see the target symbol representing PAT25 start flashing red right before the collision. There is a period of about 7 seconds where the controller's display was alerting, but there was no corresponding action from the controller. Again, he may have just assumed it was a "near miss" since the UH-60 pilot had confirmed visual acquisition.



That's a good - and entirely actionable - question.

There have been numerous occasions when I was denied airspace transit by controllers - most commonly at TTN. My guess is that the controller was trying to accommodate the Blackhawk because those flights are a common occurrence and considered routine.

100% my own opinion, it was a bad idea. And it was an especially bad idea to hand off separation to the helo pilot. The whole tragedy is avoided with a simple "PAT25, traffic your 12:00 and 1 mile is a CRJ on final to Runway 33. Turn left 20 degrees." That one basic call and 67 people are alive today.

I noticed on the video that there was a plane taking off at the same time from a nearby runway that the helicopter would have safely passed behind but for the crash.

Is there any chance this was a complete miscommunication and the helicopter pilot was focused on that plane, or are there two many simple details in the way the conversation goes for that kind of mistake to happen?

It seemed implausible to me except in that watching the video it appeared he was going to cross that departing planes flight path exactly how he was supposed to cross the incoming planes path and didn’t.

 

[RU4Real]

I noticed on the video that there was a plane taking off at the same time from a nearby runway that the helicopter would have safely passed behind but for the crash.

Is there any chance this was a complete miscommunication and the helicopter pilot was focused on that plane, or are there two many simple details in the way the conversation goes for that kind of mistake to happen?

It seemed implausible to me except in that watching the video it appeared he was going to cross that departing planes flight path exactly how he was supposed to cross the incoming planes path and didn’t.

Departing traffic would have been headed in the other direction so would never have been seen by the Blackhawk. There was another inbound flight (to R1) about 2 miles behind the CRJ. Even that is an unlikely target for a mistake because the Blackhawk would have passed well in front of it.

My guess is that @ashokan is correct. If they were using NVGs it would have made acquiring a target showing standard red / green anticollision lights more difficult than it would have been without them. I have no idea what they were looking at that they thought was a CRJ, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if it was something on the ground. The major challenge with VFR at night is there's no horizon reference, the ground and the sky blend together. I would fly VFR at night frequently, but would still use instruments to maintain level flight.

 

[rubaseball78]

Why not remove the copters from the equation by not allowing them in final approach air space?

You are being too logical.

 

[ashokan]

Audio of MID-AIR CRASH into Potomac River​

 

[ashokan]

Military won't name lady pilot of helicopter

U.S. Army withholds name of one Black Hawk soldier killed in D.C. collision

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -The U.S. Army on Friday released the names of two of the soldiers killed when the military Black Hawk in which they were flying collided with a passenger jet, but said, in an unusual decision, that they were not releasing the third name at the request of the family. The...

www.aol.com

 

[mdk01]

At the request of the family. There's plenty of time.

 

[CERU00]

Departing traffic would have been headed in the other direction so would never have been seen by the Blackhawk. There was another inbound flight (to R1) about 2 miles behind the CRJ. Even that is an unlikely target for a mistake because the Blackhawk would have passed well in front of it.

My guess is that @ashokan is correct. If they were using NVGs it would have made acquiring a target showing standard red / green anticollision lights more difficult than it would have been without them. I have no idea what they were looking at that they thought was a CRJ, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if it was something on the ground. The major challenge with VFR at night is there's no horizon reference, the ground and the sky blend together. I would fly VFR at night frequently, but would still use instruments to maintain level flight.

Doesn't it seem likely the helicopter was above its altitude ceiling of 200ft? I've heard it speculated that the collision was approximately at 300ft. To the layman it seems preposterous for helos to be regularly flying directly through the airport approaches.

 

[B1GRUfan]

Whether 200ft or 300ft that’s just too close for me. Don’t think ATC should have passed responsibility to the chopper to watch out for the jet. Should have instructed him to turn. I’m sure all will come out in the end.

 

[ashokan]

Best vid I think

 

[Rutgers NJ]

One of the three soldiers aboard the Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Airlines flight near Reagan National Airport on Wednesday has been identified as a former White House aide during the Biden administration. The Army identified the soldier as 28-year-old Captain Rebecca Lobach, an aviation officer who had served since July 2019. Lobach’s military honors included the Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal, and Army Service Ribbon. She first enlisted in the North Carolina Army National Guard while in college in December 2018, according to CBS News. Lobach previously worked as a White House social aide under President Joe Biden. Last month, she escorted designer Ralph Lauren through the White House when he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Ad Feedback "We are devastated by the loss of our beloved Rebecca. She was a bright star in all our lives. She was kind, generous, brilliant, funny, ambitious and strong. No one dreamed bigger or worked harder to achieve her goals," the family said in a prepared statement. Lobach's family had initially asked that the Army withhold her name due to privacy reasons. According to NPR, such a move is unusual in the event of accidents or combat deaths. The two other soldiers killed in the crash were Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Eaves, 39, and Staff Sgt. Ryan Austin O’Hara, 28, who served as the crew chief. As of now, two of the three bodies have been recovered from the wreckage, per CBS News. Ad Feedback The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir in Virginia and was conducting a training mission when it collided with a commercial airplane approaching Reagan National Airport. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth confirmed the helicopter pilots "were on a routine, annual re-training of night flights on a standard corridor for a continuity of government mission." Authorities have confirmed that the midair collision resulted in the total death of 67 people with no survivors.

 

[Rutgers NJ]

One of the three soldiers aboard the Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Airlines flight near Reagan National Airport on Wednesday has been identified as a former White House aide during the Biden administration. The Army identified the soldier as 28-year-old Captain Rebecca Lobach, an aviation officer who had served since July 2019. Lobach’s military honors included the Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal, and Army Service Ribbon. She first enlisted in the North Carolina Army National Guard while in college in December 2018, according to CBS News. Lobach previously worked as a White House social aide under President Joe Biden. Last month, she escorted designer Ralph Lauren through the White House when he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Ad Feedback "We are devastated by the loss of our beloved Rebecca. She was a bright star in all our lives. She was kind, generous, brilliant, funny, ambitious and strong. No one dreamed bigger or worked harder to achieve her goals," the family said in a prepared statement. Lobach's family had initially asked that the Army withhold her name due to privacy reasons. According to NPR, such a move is unusual in the event of accidents or combat deaths. The two other soldiers killed in the crash were Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Eaves, 39, and Staff Sgt. Ryan Austin O’Hara, 28, who served as the crew chief. As of now, two of the three bodies have been recovered from the wreckage, per CBS News. Ad Feedback The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir in Virginia and was conducting a training mission when it collided with a commercial airplane approaching Reagan National Airport. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth confirmed the helicopter pilots "were on a routine, annual re-training of night flights on a standard corridor for a continuity of government mission." Authorities have confirmed that the midair collision resulted in the total death of 67 people with no survivors.

https://mr.cdn.ignitecdn.com/client_assets/thepostmillennial_com/media/picture/679e/acc9/6a97/b90c/238c/ba64/content_Untitled_Design_-_2025-02-01T162152.696.jpg?1738452172

 

[zappaa]

Over emotional NTSB team leader.
Jet was on normal, perfect glide path final approach before it was slammed by wayward copter.
It’s either pilot error or ATC error…or both combined.

 

[29PAS]

I can't get this mid-air collision out of my mind. I was an intercept controller in the USAF a long time ago. We controlled the fighters who were going to shoot down the Russian bombers so I'm familiar with control procedures (headings, altitude, calling out traffic, etc.) but had no experience controlling aircraft in a Terminal Control Area.

That being said, I'm just baffled by the decision to allow helicopters (or anything else) to fly under a runway approach so close to the runway threshold. It seems risky in good weather conditions and stupid in marginal conditions. Apparently this has been going on for some time and, to me, was an accident waiting to happen. It sounds as though the helicopter was higher than 200ft. I know there are usually many factors leading up to an accident but it seems to me the helicopter altitude is going to be the primary one. Hope they get an insight into why and it will be interesting to read the NTSB report.

 

[rubaseball78]

Read this morning black box is showing the plane tried to pull up at the last moment.

 

[zappaa]

I can't get this mid-air collision out of my mind. I was an intercept controller in the USAF a long time ago. We controlled the fighters who were going to shoot down the Russian bombers so I'm familiar with control procedures (headings, altitude, calling out traffic, etc.) but had no experience controlling aircraft in a Terminal Control Area.

That being said, I'm just baffled by the decision to allow helicopters (or anything else) to fly under a runway approach so close to the runway threshold. It seems risky in good weather conditions and stupid in marginal conditions. Apparently this has been going on for some time and, to me, was an accident waiting to happen. It sounds as though the helicopter was higher than 200ft. I know there are usually many factors leading up to an accident but it seems to me the helicopter altitude is going to be the primary one. Hope they get an insight into why and it will be interesting to read the NTSB report.

It’s ridiculous, remove the threat.

 

[rubaseball78]

It’s ridiculous, remove the threat.

Agree. A basic approach to reducing accidents or improving safety where ever I have worked is to eliminate potential factors. I also read that the controller should have been clearer with his instructions to the helicopter. In addition to just asking if the helicopter pilot sees the plan he should be asking if the helicopter pilot sees the plan at 12:00 o'clock. He just asked if he could see the plane and the helicopter pilot replied yes. One of the working theories is he was looking at a different plane.

 

[RU4Real]

I can't get this mid-air collision out of my mind. I was an intercept controller in the USAF a long time ago. We controlled the fighters who were going to shoot down the Russian bombers so I'm familiar with control procedures (headings, altitude, calling out traffic, etc.) but had no experience controlling aircraft in a Terminal Control Area.

That being said, I'm just baffled by the decision to allow helicopters (or anything else) to fly under a runway approach so close to the runway threshold. It seems risky in good weather conditions and stupid in marginal conditions. Apparently this has been going on for some time and, to me, was an accident waiting to happen. It sounds as though the helicopter was higher than 200ft. I know there are usually many factors leading up to an accident but it seems to me the helicopter altitude is going to be the primary one. Hope they get an insight into why and it will be interesting to read the NTSB report.

I was a 303x2. We used to do ops (scope work) when the ops guys would call in sick or go drinking or whatever.

At Gibbsboro we would do Philly approach / east sector when they were having comms issues. Middle of the night / low volume sort of stuff. It wasn't hard.

 

[B0ski]

When commercial airliners land I believe it is a requirement to have the inside of the plane lights on. Also when landing there are usually many window seats that have shades up so they can view the sights when landing (especially in DC with all the sights).

In the video it looked like the helo broadsided the plane.

If that is all true, how the hell could the helo pilot/crew members not see the internal lights of the plane through the planes windows?

 

[ashokan]

Pilots tried to pull passenger jet’s nose up within seconds of deadly DC helicopter collision​

"The American Airlines flight involved in the deadly collision with a Black Hawk helicopter over Washington, DC, seemed to increase its pitch just before the impact, preliminary data from a data recorder recovered from the plane shows...

The slight increase in pitch could show the pilots trying to pull the plane up after suddenly noticing the helicopter, Mary Schiavo, former inspector general at the Department of Transportation, told CNN Saturday.

“That tells us that they did not see the helicopter until just, you know, a second at impact,” Schiavo said. “But they had that one second to try to pull up.”

The discrepancy between the plane’s altitude and the helicopter altitude as reported by the air traffic controllers “is going to be the source of a lot of investigation,” Schiavo added."

Pilots tried to pull passenger jet’s nose up within seconds of deadly DC helicopter collision, preliminary NTSB data shows | CNN

lite.cnn.com

 

[RU4Real]

Pilots tried to pull passenger jet’s nose up within seconds of deadly DC helicopter collision​

"The American Airlines flight involved in the deadly collision with a Black Hawk helicopter over Washington, DC, seemed to increase its pitch just before the impact, preliminary data from a data recorder recovered from the plane shows...

The slight increase in pitch could show the pilots trying to pull the plane up after suddenly noticing the helicopter, Mary Schiavo, former inspector general at the Department of Transportation, told CNN Saturday.

“That tells us that they did not see the helicopter until just, you know, a second at impact,” Schiavo said. “But they had that one second to try to pull up.”

The discrepancy between the plane’s altitude and the helicopter altitude as reported by the air traffic controllers “is going to be the source of a lot of investigation,” Schiavo added."

Pilots tried to pull passenger jet’s nose up within seconds of deadly DC helicopter collision, preliminary NTSB data shows | CNN

lite.cnn.com

Increase in pitch and increase in altitude are not the same thing.

It's entirely possible, if not likely, that this was a routine increase in pitch angle to maintain airspeed and / or decrease rate of descent to maintain overall descent rate.

The CVR will tell us why.

 

[29PAS]

I was a 303x2. We used to do ops (scope work) when the ops guys would call in sick or go drinking or whatever.

At Gibbsboro we would do Philly approach / east sector when they were having comms issues. Middle of the night / low volume sort of stuff. It wasn't hard.

I was a 1744E in Maine and NB, Canada. Didn't know about Gibbsboro AFS even though I dated a girl from that town in high school (their kids went to my hs)! Found out about it much later. Was The Golf Farm there when you were there?

 

[Rutgers NJ]

This seems odd to me. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/02/female-pilot-rebecca-lobach-had-her-entire-social/

 

[RU4Real]

I was a 1744E in Maine and NB, Canada. Didn't know about Gibbsboro AFS even though I dated a girl from that town in high school (their kids went to my hs)! Found out about it much later. Was The Golf Farm there when you were there?

Don't remember anything about a Golf Farm. I was there in the early 80s. Mostly we worked and did lots of drugs. :)

 

[mdk01]

This seems odd to me. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/02/female-pilot-rebecca-lobach-had-her-entire-social/

As long as the FAA and NTSB had a chance to review I have no problem with it. I certainly would not want random strangers hacking into my personal business. And you know attempts would be made

 

[nutfromSEC117]

Delete as much as you want to stay private
Deleting entire accounts from existence just causes people to dig even deeper and to create wild theories