Very much disagree. A number of companies, especially gold standard companies, have specific lists of schools that you will have to have graduated from to be employed there.
OT:Private Schools, Are they worth the cost?
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Very much disagree. A number of companies, especially gold standard companies, have specific lists of schools that you will have to have graduated from to be employed there.
What you're leaving out is that there is already a selection step prior to entry into Delbarton. The students who attend already are ahead of their peers - so, it's not a matter of "beating out 600 other kids" if they attended public school, since they're already ahead of them on Day 1.
The average caliber 8th grader entering Delbarton is already way ahead of the average caliber 8th grader entering any public school. That doesn't necessarily mean the top 8th grader going to Delbarton is any way ahead of the top 8th grader heading to public school.... but the bottom 8th grader going to Delbarton is *way* *way* ahead of the bottom 8th grader heading to public school (and well ahead of the lowest quartile, and arguably well ahead of the lower half).
"If your kid gets into Delbarton, and once there is simply AVERAGE".... means your kid is already above average, likely well above average. And beyond their academic performance, they're above average in family income, the value their family places on education, etc.... all before walking through the doors of high school.
The question is how much benefit does Delbarton (or other noted private school) give to those above average students that they wouldn't get elsewhere (either at a lesser private school, a high performing public school, a lesser public school, etc). There is inarguably a benefit - connections, community outreach, guidance, prestige, etc. There's also arguably an academic benefit - assumed, but hard to quantify given an inability to control for other factors.
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If $30K a year is a drop in the bucket, then I would absolutely say that looking at private schools is a good bet. It's not financially impactful, and it confers many benefits.
If $30K a year is a major economic hardship, that would change the decision-making process considerably.... especially if the strain of paying for high school puts the ability to pay for college at risk.
There is a middle area between those two poles, where it'd be a strain but not back-breaking... and that's where you'll have to make a hard decision, and likely weight the cost vs. the benefit.
As an aside, it also depends on the student. Some students would thrive in a private school environment that is geared toward placement in elite universities, while others would not.
There are absolutely ceilings out there.
Sometimes it's a "can't get your foot in the door" and sometimes it's a "can't get promoted above a certain level" ceiling, but they do exist. Those schools have certain very real barriers to entry, and it's an easy shorthand to say that graduates from those schools fit a certain profile.
I can agree with a number of Hudson's points but not the RU/ OSU one. RU and OSU play by the same general rules. What's being talked about here is like taking Town A rec basketball program, holding it up next to SuperMagicGalaxyStars AAU basketball team and saying, "look how lousy Town A is; they haven't put nearly as many people into college hoops."
Joe P.
Joe P.
I get that you are a fan. Let me do some math for you. My class was 724 kids and I was top 15% (108 kids ranked higher than me) and I got into Colgate and UNC. Is Delbarton sending 108 kids to schools better than Colgate and UNC? I agree with you that it's great to send 28 kids to Ivy and that's the real benefit. But not so much for the other 100 kids. I wonder how many of the 28 kids got in because of sports. I know that's a big part of their program.
Elizabeth HS has one of their High schools (they have a high school campus with different buildings, like a college). One of the High Schools is ranked in the top ten in the state. Now how is that even possible when Elizabeth High School is terrible and have a big problem with gangs? Simple a built a smaller high school way off site which is made up entirely of AP and honor students. That's right 100% of the students take AP classes. The school has a little over 700 students, the main Elizabeth HS has thousands (over 4,000 I believe).
They basically take their top 10% and put them in a different building far away from the normal students. There is a charter school in Newark that does the same thing.
jtung - I think there are merits to both sides of the discussion here. The key factor to me is to know your kid well and understand what is the best option for your child. Factoring in your ability to pay is obviously a critical component of the decision.
As to your recent question - whether kids at Delbarton who do not attend Ivys go to better schools than Colgate and UNC, let me offer this information. I believe Colgate and UNC are very fine schools. My three kids were fortunate enough to attend private school. We are in NYC, so I cannot answer for Delbarton. In my son's recent graduating class of 65, virtually every kid attended what would generally be considered better schools than Colgate and UNC. If they are not attending Ivys, they are going to the high end liberal arts schools such as Amherst, Williams, Hopkins, Haverford, Bowdoin, etc..., or places like Northwestern, Duke, Stanford, U of Chicago, MIT, etc...Again, Colgate and UNC are fine schools, but to respond to your inquiry, at least in NYC they are generally attending higher end colleges. I suspect Delbarton is the same.
Now, one can argue that those colleges are not worth the extra money and I understand the merit of those arguments. The fact is that the private school kids are apparently attending higher end colleges.
62 of 128 went to what everyone here would consider "elite" universities. The next 45 or so went to schools like Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, Bucknell, BC and 'Nova.
Here is the link.
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/stor...own-delbarton-high-school-graduation/9801293/
Other than one kid who is going to FDU, there isn't a bad school on the list. Not a single one. The bottom 10% of their class is going to places like Providence, Purdue, Illinois and Fairfield. Overpriced? maybe. But certainly very good educations.
Your math is off. You need to deal with percentages, not absolute numbers. Delb sending 28 kids to Ivy is like your public school sending 150 students to an Ivy.
Sorry. but college acceptance is no competition between public and private schools.
It does and has occurred in "good" public schools.. We had direct, similar experience. In our public school. We found a private school where the focus was on math and science, and it worked out extremely well for our boys.
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I think one number everyone is forgetting about in this thread is SAT score. There is a reason for the SAT's. To make sure that a kid who is at a marginal school and has a 4.2 GPA really is that smart. Or the kid that goes to a high academic school ( public or private) that might not make top 10 in the class in GPA but has a high SAT has a better chance of getting in to a better school. Any guidance counselor or admittance officer will tell you they look at the school first when looking at GPA's. A 4.0 in one school equates to 3.5 in another. For all of those kids on that list above that are getting into those great and very good schools just don't have great GPA's they have to have great SAT's also. Unless....see below.
One of the top things admittance offices look at is the strength of your course load. So many people tell me my kid took this AP course or this one. My first question is what did they score? Just because you took a course does not mean it is a positive.
Some of the private schools being thrown out here in this discussion, Pingry, Delbarton, etc, are in a different league then the parochial s that where first being discussed in this thread. But the kids still need one of three things to get into Ivy's, or other top schools. Either they are really smart, legacies or someone has a lot of money to donate. There is a reason that a school like Princeton has something like $45 billion in their endowment.
One of the top things admittance offices look at is the strength of your course load. So many people tell me my kid took this AP course or this one. My first question is what did they score? Just because you took a course does not mean it is a positive.
Some of the private schools being thrown out here in this discussion, Pingry, Delbarton, etc, are in a different league then the parochial s that where first being discussed in this thread. But the kids still need one of three things to get into Ivy's, or other top schools. Either they are really smart, legacies or someone has a lot of money to donate. There is a reason that a school like Princeton has something like $45 billion in their endowment.
Definitely helps to know people. That is big plus at private schools. Typically you are rubbing elbows with people and kids who wind up being thought leaders.
Someone posted about their parents making house buying decisions to ensure they would have leg up, owning that house some day.
That is what parents are doing who send their kids to private schools are doing, only they may be further down that generational path of family wealth building.
One thing I have noticed with wealthy people. Parents don't pay for school, the grandparents do. Further, grandparents leave much of their wealth to their grandkids, not their kids. By that time, the grandkids are in position to use it more to build further wealth, having more of their life left, and their parents had that same assistance.
Someone posted about their parents making house buying decisions to ensure they would have leg up, owning that house some day.
That is what parents are doing who send their kids to private schools are doing, only they may be further down that generational path of family wealth building.
One thing I have noticed with wealthy people. Parents don't pay for school, the grandparents do. Further, grandparents leave much of their wealth to their grandkids, not their kids. By that time, the grandkids are in position to use it more to build further wealth, having more of their life left, and their parents had that same assistance.
My math is not off. I stated that the percentages are always going to in favour of private schools but actual numbers tells a different story. I also stated that if your kid is one of the 28 that got into Ivy that's worth the money. But it becomes very subjective after that. I'm number 109 in my very average high school and I was able to get into good schools. What about the top 50 kids? I know kids that pass on Ivy to go to UVA (state school) due to tuition cost. I'm not saying anyone is wasting their money and I understand that all parents want the best for their kids. The discussion is if it's worth the extra costs. I actually stated that it's a debate that can't be settled because it's so subjective.
Your math is off because the kid that is going to Chicago or Williams or Swarthmore, likely got into one of the Ivies. Just made a choice that was more inline with his educational wants. The real math is that 60 of 128 got into ELITE--not very good or above average, but ELITE--universities. Universities that are incredibly difficult to get into.
What the data tell you is that admittance to a school like Delbarton or Pingry or Lawrencevile almost guarantees your admittance into either a Top 30 national research university or a Top 20 Liberal Arts school.
Boom. Game over. Here's why you lost:
Because while it's your $30k, it's not YOUR future - it's your kid's future. And if you're admitting that spending the $30k gives your kid an advantage, then whether or not you spend it has nothing to do with anything other than "how much is giving my kid an advantage really worth to me?".
This is the reason why this is a stupid argument every time it comes up on the board. The people who say "private schools aren't worth the money" are looking at it from their perspective only, and excluding their kids from the equation.
We can quibble over *how much* of an advantage private schools confer on kids until the cows come home, but it's inarguable that there is an advantage. So if you choose not to pay for that advantage, then fine - it's not worth it to you. But it would be worth it to your kids.
Except that the question, as posed by the OP, was "are privates worth the cost," which means that the quibble over *how much* of an advantage that $30K (or whatever) brings is the entire discussion. Is that advantage enough to warrant spending $120K for high school? That question is different for every family, and you can't just say "it would be worth it to your kids," which is why this argument has gone nowhere outside of most posters making self-validating arguments (not to say that there isn't a lot of excellent information and insight within the thread, but the debate is fruitless and no one is going to win or lose).
FWIW, some friends I had growing up that went to private high schools aren't really any better off than my public-school friends. Tne kid that went to Pingry became a chef, last I heard. A nice career, sure, but not sure that private school really had any impact and not sure his parents would say that every penny was worth it. Or maybe they would. But there are certainly folks out there that feel like private schools were a waste. Some of them are even in this thread.
I tend to agree with someone that said it might be better just to invest that money and give your kid a really nice nest egg. At least for some kids that's true. A couple hundred thousand dollars is a pretty solid way to start off and goes a long way toward college, grad school, starting a business, buying a home, building savings, etc.
Just shut down public schools, save me 2/3 of my property tax bill and I'll take a reverse mortgage to send the kids to wardlaw or whatever. This is ridiculous.
I don't think anyone would or could deny that upper-level private schools can give a kid an advantage with getting into upper-level colleges, etc- that's almost their main purpose and are designed to do so while operating outside the jurisdiction of a number of state compulsory educational laws. I think it would be more newsworthy if they didn't do so. On the same token, it's not like these kids get in by accident. These people are pros and likely excellent at what they do.
I'd be a bit curious to see what some of these schools' attrition and dismissal rates are.
Joe P.
I'd be a bit curious to see what some of these schools' attrition and dismissal rates are.
Joe P.
i agree with much of what you are saying which is why in my initial post I cautioned the OP against viewing this decision simply in ROI terms. There is no way to know what the alternative outcome will be. So, it is not really even possible to to use ROI terms. I admit that I get sucked in to this debate every year as it goes down here. And I did this time too. It just gets whacky to me when people shoot down something they've never experienced and the logic is that little Suzy can do just as well at the local public. Maybe she can. But it's hard to argue that the numbers aren't more onerous at the local public.
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SPP routinely admits 225-250 freshman. Usually graduates 150-175.
The crucible year at SPP is junior year. Mandatory classes are Chemistry, Algebra 2 and Trig, 2nd year of foreign language, the most writing intensive English class of your time there, American History and a handful of others. These are the minimum requirements. Some kids will have AP or honors. Other kids will have already passed through Algebra 2...but this is a good starting point.
Also, every student is required to perform a Christian Service project junior year. I think it was 100 hours when I was in school, but I don't remember. It is substantial though.
The attrition comes from the fact that you are only able to take two summer school classes in the event you fail a class. You fail a third, regardless of your class year, you are auto-dismissed.
Good points. ROI is really a hindsight-only analysis, and even then, still just a guess.
Even in the example of my friend, he was always a bit of a class clown and started getting into fights when we entered junior high. Transferred to Pingry a year later in 7th grade. So even though he didn't necessarily go to a top college or become a business mogul, he might still owe a lot to the private school decision.
Anyway, I've been thinking about this myself for the future. The school system in town isn't great, so would I 1. move 2. look to schools in neighboring towns or 3. save and go private. Appreciate all the insights from everyone here, even in argument form :smiley:
I give Prep credit for maintaining these very rigorous standards, especially in the face of mounting athletic focus throughout North Jersey. If you graduate I'd say it would be pretty tough to not be prepared for the next level.
Are the 'attritions' factored into the grad numbers at Prep (or any other private)?
Joe P.
So, using this list and a little google skills, I learned why Princeton accepts so many kids from Delbarton.
Apparently a surefire way to get Princeton to look at your kid is to have him wrestle at Delbarton.
Not sure when this became a game, or when it became a competition. For someone seemingly in favor of a higher quality of education, you seem to want to boil down a complex discussion into the most simplistic of terms.
Your argument also clearly comes from a place of financial stability and security, where $30K/yr is not a strain. The median income in NJ is $71K, where $30K ($34K this year for Delbarton, per Google) would absolutely be too much of a burden to bear - and that's assuming only one child. Private schools also benefit from the fact that they are out of reach for the average person, as it homogenizes the student population somewhat to a certain socioeconomic class. To someone bringing in $50K per year, $30K for education might as well be $1M.
As for excluding the kids from the equation, you seem to be excluding a lot of things from the kid equation. A stable home that isn't plagued by debt, a marriage that isn't strained by bills and the need to keep up with payments, parents who are home because they don't need to work a second or third job, not having their home foreclosed on by the bank, not being the "poor kid" in a class full of much wealthier kids, etc - and really, at the end of the day, if a kid manages to get into Princeton but there's no way for the parents to pay for more than community college because of their level of debt, the benefits gained by the $120K are lost.
"How much" of an advantage has to be counterbalanced by how much of a disruption it would cause to the other success factors in a child's life.
Plus, if the argument is "it's worth it to the kids, so you have to do it" - there are a ton of things that also fall into that category beyond private school. Private tutors, private academic advisors, standardized test prep courses, trips abroad, summer enrichment programs, college savings plans, extracurricular activities... at some point, the cost straws become too much for the budget camel. If someone is affluent enough to afford all of the above, that's great for them - but those who aren't need to try to get as much value for their kids as possible within their means, which means taking a hard look at whether private school fits into that equation.
There is no blanket answer that works for every kid in every situation, or every family situation. And there's no game, or a winner/loser in this discussion. It's not always black and white.
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Also, interesting stat from hudson above that Delbarton has anywhere from a 25-40% attrition rate, with the highest risk time being junior year. So, there's a 25-40% chance that after $90K+, a student ends up graduating from public school, anyway.
Also, out of curiosity, what do you do as freshmen for math and science if you're only up to Algebra 2 and Chemistry as a junior? I had Honors Algebra 2 as a freshman and Honors Chemistry as a sophomore - one of my friends was already in AP Calc AB as a junior. Really interested to understand how the course schedule breaks out, and how easily it can be accelerated.
I know for public schools kids who drop out or don't graduate in 4 years count against grad rates (at least according to REL, the national organization who tracks these stats), even if the student is say involved in special education and will be in a district-provided program through age 21 by design. It would be interesting to see some of the rates for private schools reconfigured with kids who are dismissed or leave without moving.
Joe P.
Joe P.
Signed, the guy who has mentioned numerous times he went to Sayreville High School and obvious done well for himself.
Funny thing about that - 35+ years ago, SWMHS was a model institution, academically. When I got to college, I had three advantages: four years of prior military service, a full-time job and a Sayreville education. The latter prepared me, academically, in a manner that's lasted a lifetime.
So yes, public schools CAN work for kids that are motivated.
But by the same token, public schools have changed dramatically, as a whole, these last three decades. The teaching methods are too constrained, there are too many teachers who are just phoning it in and they all seem concerned about half a dozen things more than they're concerned about actually teaching. Plus, a lot of them (including my local FRHSD school, which is Manalapan) are total zoos.
I remember the first time I went on a first aid call to MHS during the day. We went into the administrative offices and along the way observed dozens, if not more than 100, kids just milling around. In the hallways, outside... I asked the assistant principal if they were between classes. He assured me they weren't.
The problem, he said, was that you can't discipline the kids because the parents flip out. Up to and including bringing legal action against the district. So they've given up trying to enforce against minor infractions and concentrate on the serious stuff, which is almost all drug-related.
So I sent my girls to SJV. We could afford it, and the school claims a demonstrable ROI - they track in great detail the college scholarships awarded to their graduates and they freely share the data.
The oldest one graduated with honors and went to UDel - because it's one of the few schools in this part of the country that had the program of study she wanted. She's now going into her second year of graduate school at Sacred Heart, for OT.
In her case, we felt private school was a benefit because she's a lot like me - she's easily distracted and often not in a good way. She had a great circle of friends, stayed out of trouble and as a bonus got to run cross country and track in the most competitive group in the state. The sum total of her experiences gave her the confidence she needed to get where she is today.
The younger one is completely different - bookish and introverted. She would have excelled, academically, anywhere. But socially she would have been lost in a school with a 3k+ population. At SJV she found good friends, got involved in extra-curriculars and graduated with a 4.67 GPA, 4th in her class.
In her time at SJV she took 7 AP courses (and got 7 scores of '5' on the exams) and 3 courses that are offered with joint credit with Seton Hall.
She just finished her freshman year at Dickinson College and the merit money they gave her has paid for her SJV education several times over. And they gave her credit for 9 classes; according to her registration profile, she started school as a sophomore.
As most people know by now, Dickinson ranks pretty high on the list of snooty, expensive, northeast liberal arts colleges. And she loves it there.
Most of Dickinson's students come from private schools.
The point is (and I know this kinda brings the thread full-circle) that if you can swing it, private schools are a definite benefit. The manner and extent will depend almost entirely on the individual. Yes, your mileage may vary. But nothing can convince me that there are not very significant advantages bestowed by a private school education.
Apologies for the long reply.
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Princeton has 30 Delbarton wrestlers on its roster? Interesting.
Cause when I look, I see two.
http://www.goprincetontigers.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPID=4269&SPSID=46862
I commented on SPP's attrition, not Delbarton. So, if Johnny gets booted after junior year, you are about 40k into the education for tuition, clothing (sport coats, ties, etc) and commuting costs. SPP keeps "fees" relatively small.
As for the course of study. And this is very ballpark, as kids can and do test out of the normal track.
Frosh: Algebra 1, what I would call Earth Science, World Civilization, Latin 1 (mandatory), Religion, Phys Ed, English 1, Music Appreciation and a few other classes that are escaping me.
Soph: Biology, Geometry, English 2 (American lit usually), Soph year begins the ability to take Electives. Some are: various Fine Arts, advanced music, Statistics and Probability, Intro to the Internet of Everything, Programming,
And so on. To your other question, if kids test out of a certain math, they are offered the next math up the food chain. If you test out of Algebra 1 (past the Honors level) you are offered Geometry, then Algebra 2 and Trig (offered on the "regular" and "accelerated" levels), then Pre-Calc, then Calculus. I had a classmate who is now a astro physicist at Harvard. He didn't manage to exhaust all the math options.
Sciences include Biology (offered in honors and AP), Chemistry (honors and AP), Physics (honors and AP), meteorology.
Languages include German, Spanish, Greek, Italian, Mandarin and Latin.
One difference between then and now is students have much more control over their curriculum much sooner. We didn't have electives until senior year. Now, they have options soph year.
Mine are in private partially because of the religious aspect, and it's easier for me to have all of my kids in one location. We are taking somewhat of a gamble though in that we are hoping for academic scholarships. My oldest two appear to be on that path, but my boys (all younger ) need to get focused. I'm not really concerned as I did not get focused unail 8th grade. Of course we are actively involved with their education as well.
I won't comment for 4Real, but what you normally find at RU is students of his daughter's demographic (white, upper middle class, parents have the ability to pay the full nut) don't get jack bone in the way of serious scholarship money meritoriously.
It's a program that RU needs to expand if we are serious about "keeping the best and brightest" in the state. There needs to be a purely merit based Presidential Scholars program that gives full boat rides to kids like his daughter. There currently is a Presidential Scholars program but 1) it is relatively small and 2) I think there is a social justice type of element to it--which is fine and admirable. But it explains why kids like his daughter go elsewhere.
And obviously this ignores other things like wanting to get away for school, campus size, strength of program, etc.
Rutgers doesn't have a graduate OT program (no idea why not), but she went to UDel because they have one of the best exercise science undergrad programs in the country, combined with one of the best disability studies programs, which comprised her double major.
The younger one got a nearly full ride to one of the best small, private liberal arts schools. By comparison, Rutgers isn't a consideration.
Creating a competitive environment is training for life. Suggesting private schools dumb down their rules and expectations by essentially not kicking kids out or allowing anyone in would be contrary to what they are doing in the first place.
Private schools for the most part are better because they don't abide by those rules.
...the whole point of that was the rules of operation are VERY DIFFERENT and that a straight-up comparison becomes misleading because of such. It's also why it makes me sick to my stomach and annoys me to no end when people look down their nose at public education like they're 'too good' for it. IMO we'd be pretty screwed without it.
Joe P.
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Attrition at SPP is probably a slightly different animal. SPP feels a deep conviction to offer opportunity to kids from Hudson County. As such, they extend offers of admission to kids who they know are going to be in up to their eyeballs from minute 1 of day 1. Many of those kids succeed and become some of Prep's brightest stories. Current senior Dave Tolentino is a prime example. All state football player and headed to Navy. He was by all accounts an "at risk" kid when arrived. But he worked his ass off and seized the opportunity. Ended up being a 4 year honors kid as well as one of the best lineman in school history.
But because they extend the opportunities to lots of kids, there is a natural attrition built in. Some kids are just not equipped to handle the rigor. Because they feel the conviction to extend the opportunity, doesn't mean that they dumb down the requirements. They don't. So the kid that comes from Greenville section of Jersey City has the same expectations as the kid who's mother is a heart surgeon and who's father is a Managing Director at Goldman. As it should be.
