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OT:Private Schools, Are they worth the cost?

...the whole point of that was the rules of operation are VERY DIFFERENT and that a straight-up comparison becomes misleading because of such.


Joe P.

But the point of these conversations is an attempt to compare outcomes. The "rules of operation" is the sausage making that is really irrelevant to the conversation. If you are making the decision to send your kid to Pingry, is it really a point of caring that they don't deal with special ed or behavior problems? You're looking at the decision with that in mind already and presumably with the idea that your kid is neither special ed nor a behavior problem. It's an academic exercise for outsiders to factor that kind of thing in. If I'm knee deep in making the decision, all I care about is outcomes and experience. I don't care WHY it's an unfair comparison, do i?

We're not willing to give highly ranked quarterback's family members jobs. Maryland and Tennessee are. What good does it do to sit and lament how unfair that is? This is a results oriented endeavor.
 
Attrition at SPP is probably a slightly different animal. SPP feels a deep conviction to offer opportunity to kids from Hudson County. As such, they extend offers of admission to kids who they know are going to be in up to their eyeballs from minute 1 of day 1. Many of those kids succeed and become some of Prep's brightest stories. Current senior Dave Tolentino is a prime example. All state football player and headed to Navy. He was by all accounts an "at risk" kid when arrived. But he worked his ass off and seized the opportunity. Ended up being a 4 year honors kid as well as one of the best lineman in school history.

But because they extend the opportunities to lots of kids, there is a natural attrition built in. Some kids are just not equipped to handle the rigor. Because they feel the conviction to extend the opportunity, doesn't mean that they dumb down the requirements. They don't. So the kid that comes from Greenville section of Jersey City has the same expectations as the kid who's mother is a heart surgeon and who's father is a Managing Director at Goldman. As it should be.

...this is why I hold Prep in high esteem; they seem to combine the advantages of a private-school education while leaving the arrogance that can be associated with it at the door.


Joe P.
 
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Attrition at SPP is probably a slightly different animal. SPP feels a deep conviction to offer opportunity to kids from Hudson County. As such, they extend offers of admission to kids who they know are going to be in up to their eyeballs from minute 1 of day 1. Many of those kids succeed and become some of Prep's brightest stories. Current senior Dave Tolentino is a prime example. All state football player and headed to Navy. He was by all accounts an "at risk" kid when arrived. But he worked his ass off and seized the opportunity. Ended up being a 4 year honors kid as well as one of the best lineman in school history.

But because they extend the opportunities to lots of kids, there is a natural attrition built in. Some kids are just not equipped to handle the rigor. Because they feel the conviction to extend the opportunity, doesn't mean that they dumb down the requirements. They don't. So the kid that comes from Greenville section of Jersey City has the same expectations as the kid who's mother is a heart surgeon and WHOSE father is a Managing Director at Goldman. As it should be.

Fixed it for you.
 
But the point of these conversations is an attempt to compare outcomes. The "rules of operation" is the sausage making that is really irrelevant to the conversation. If you are making the decision to send your kid to Pingry, is it really a point of caring that they don't deal with special ed or behavior problems? You're looking at the decision with that in mind already and presumably with the idea that your kid is neither special ed nor a behavior problem. It's an academic exercise for outsiders to factor that kind of thing in. If I'm knee deep in making the decision, all I care about is outcomes and experience. I don't care WHY it's an unfair comparison, do i?

We're not willing to give highly ranked quarterback's family members jobs. Maryland and Tennessee are. What good does it do to sit and lament how unfair that is? This is a results oriented endeavor.

Hudson, I'm not lamenting it at all; I'm just pointing out that the mission of public education isn't just explicitly to get kids into upper-crust colleges; it's to try and prepare ALL, regardless of capability, to be contributing members of society.


Joe P.
 
All depends what the option is for the public school. For example, I went to West Essex High School which is better academically than 90% of the private schools in the state. Academically the only private schools that are better than West Essex were probably Delbarton and Newark Academy.
 
Your math is off because the kid that is going to Chicago or Williams or Swarthmore, likely got into one of the Ivies. Just made a choice that was more inline with his educational wants. The real math is that 60 of 128 got into ELITE--not very good or above average, but ELITE--universities. Universities that are incredibly difficult to get into.

What the data tell you is that admittance to a school like Delbarton or Pingry or Lawrencevile almost guarantees your admittance into either a Top 30 national research university or a Top 20 Liberal Arts school.
You are too funny. So people in private can pick over Ivy but not the public? If you actually use logic here, it's more likely that public kids are passing on Ivy due to the cost. Kids in the top 10% of public schools get into The elite schools you listed. I know you don't want to believe that but it's the truth. My wife got into NYU and a former colleague got into ND. Both went to NJ public schools and finished in the top 10%. The point here is that it's 75% on the student and 25% on the school. If I give Delbarton the same class as the public, can they achieve the same percentage?
 
You are too funny. So people in private can pick over Ivy but not the public? If you actually use logic here, it's more likely that public kids are passing on Ivy due to the cost. Kids in the top 10% of public schools get into The elite schools you listed. I know you don't want to believe that but it's the truth. My wife got into NYU and a former colleague got into ND. Both went to NJ public schools and finished in the top 10%. The point here is that it's 75% on the student and 25% on the school. If I give Delbarton the same class as the public, can they achieve the same percentage?

I'm guessing you're not really familiar with college searches at that level.

The Ivy League schools tend to not make cost a factor. They are VERY generous with their money.

The aforementioned younger daughter applied to Yale. Our FAFSA, which was worth absolutely zero, zilch, diddly-shit in "need money" at any other school would have resulted in a $26,000/yr grant from Yale.

I don't think there's a lot of "passing in Ivy due to the cost" that goes on.
 
Comparing SPP to your typical NJ private school is a bad comparison, especially versus the Monmouth privates....when you consider SPP is located in one of, probably the most for its size, diverse cities in America...and basically in JC if you don't get into McNair going to public school is taking your life in your hands. So they are always going to get a lot of really driven kids from all kinds of backgrounds. It certainly is very notable when you have kids whose parents are immigrants, or who work low wage jobs, put their kids through, and then they go to great colleges.

At the suburban NJ privates you are mostly getting very wealthy if not extremely wealthy, overwhelmingly white, Catholic, and connected. If you took those 128 kids from Delbarton and sent them to Dickinson HS, you're still going to get a bunch of kids going to Princeton and the like because dad went there, donates there, knows the dean, knows the admissions officer, knows the governor or senator or whoever. That's not very remarkable. If you took the bottom 128 in class ranking from Dickinson and sent them to Delbarton, how many are going to Princeton- hell how many are going to Rider?

You can't just omit the socioeconomic aspect- which, by the way, is present in Marlboro, Manalapan, Ridgewood, Millburn and everywhere else in a public school. Because Marlboro has trailer parks and people on public assistance just like it has McMansions. How many of those 128 Delbarton kids even come from single parent household, a first generation American household, a household where mom or dad not only cannot pay for SAT class or lacrosse camp but also cannot help with homework because he or she comes home at 10pm and/or does not speak English, or the work or is over their heads....that's the reality in every single public school. That was the reality of friends from high school who are lawyers and doctors now. It is probably the reality at a few NJ private schools, but if you think it's the reality at Delbarton or CBA you are fooling yourself.

Sure Manalapan has drugs, so does every other high school in America, the whole stretch from Old Bridge to Toms River is loaded with high school kids with drugs at everyone of those high schools. You could easily have gotten them when I was in high school but that didn't stop multiple kids who graduated with me from going to ivy league schools. The real world is a gritty place, and again, those are familiar with dealing with those things, be it in high school or college end up being better adjusted because for most people, although the thread with parents calling college professors had life, mom and dad or rich uncle or whoever will eventually die, or you will be at some point forced to deal with someone not like you and it will suck really badly.
 
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You are too funny. So people in private can pick over Ivy but not the public? If you actually use logic here, it's more likely that public kids are passing on Ivy due to the cost. Kids in the top 10% of public schools get into The elite schools you listed. I know you don't want to believe that but it's the truth. My wife got into NYU and a former colleague got into ND. Both went to NJ public schools and finished in the top 10%. The point here is that it's 75% on the student and 25% on the school. If I give Delbarton the same class as the public, can they achieve the same percentage?

You have no idea what you're talking about and it shows every time you post.

Every Ivy school has basically adopted a position that no kid will be turned away due to an inability to pay. Princeton started it and the rest followed suit in the last 3 years. The FinAid office at each school gives mommy and daddy a very low "family responsibility" and the school's endowment does the rest. As it is currently constituted, no kid graduates an Ivy with student loan debt resulting from tuition or room and board. Borrowing to fund lifestyle is another matter, but not what we're talking about here.

Care to take another whirl at things?
 
But the point of these conversations is an attempt to compare outcomes. The "rules of operation" is the sausage making that is really irrelevant to the conversation. If you are making the decision to send your kid to Pingry, is it really a point of caring that they don't deal with special ed or behavior problems? You're looking at the decision with that in mind already and presumably with the idea that your kid is neither special ed nor a behavior problem. It's an academic exercise for outsiders to factor that kind of thing in. If I'm knee deep in making the decision, all I care about is outcomes and experience. I don't care WHY it's an unfair comparison, do i?

We're not willing to give highly ranked quarterback's family members jobs. Maryland and Tennessee are. What good does it do to sit and lament how unfair that is? This is a results oriented endeavor.

Yes, it's a comparison of outcomes - but the inputs can't be ignored, either. If you are trying to decide between private schools, then outcomes are going to be a big factor. If you are comparing between private and public, that's not an easy thing to quantify.

As a very crude comparison, f the challenge is to have $1M at the end of a 12 month period, and one set of groups starts with $900K each and another set starts with $100K each, the first set is going to have a lot more success at achieving the desired outcome than the second. Saying the a group from the firs test succeeds 40% of the time while a group from the second succeeds 5% of the time isn't that meaningful in a vacuum - you need to take into account that there were different starting conditions.

**

One of the key selling points of private schools is their selectivity. The more expensive the school, the more narrow the range of socioeconomic backgrounds the students will come from. The more selective the admission process, the more homogeneous the learners will be in terms of ability and ethic - which makes teaching easier, as there's less variance in levels within a given classroom. The more stringent the behavioral rules are, the fewer behavioral problems will exist to distract the class - which homogenizes the student body further. The lack of special ed programs also means more homogeneity and less resources spent on a minority of students. There's also usually (not always) some focus on religion, which tends to homogenize the group further. That all results in an educational environment that is well controlled and standardized, with most students being very similar in many respects with regard to background - consistent inputs lead to consistent outputs.

There's less interaction with students from widely varied socioeconomic, ethnic, cultural, religious, behavioral, developmental, etc... backgrounds. But that's not a bug, that's a feature.

**

hudson, sorry - totally missed that you were talking about SPP there instead of DB. I also understand they would likely have a higher attrition rate given their focus.

My group in high school (there were about 30-40 of us out of a graduating class of 300) were fairly consistent in our track.
Freshman year: Alg 2, Bio, World Hist, English, Language 2, Elective (usually band or orchestra in our crowd, but some took journalism or something else)
Sophomore year: Geom, Chem, AP US I, English, Language 3, Elective
Junior year: Precalc, Phys, AP US II, Survey of Amer Lit, Lang 4, Elective
Senior year: AP Calc, AP Science (Bio, Chem, or Phys), AP Comp or Lit, AP Language, AP "other" (in place of history), Elective

Most of us finished with 5-6 AP courses.
 
You have no idea what you're talking about and it shows every time you post.

Every Ivy school has basically adopted a position that no kid will be turned away due to an inability to pay. Princeton started it and the rest followed suit in the last 3 years. The FinAid office at each school gives mommy and daddy a very low "family responsibility" and the school's endowment does the rest. As it is currently constituted, no kid graduates an Ivy with student loan debt resulting from tuition or room and board. Borrowing to fund lifestyle is another matter, but not what we're talking about here.

Care to take another whirl at things?
My last post because I think it's circular at this point. Did you guys not read about the kid that pass on all Ivy schools to go to Alabama because of costs? It was national news!!! Again, more facts and truth for you to chew on. If you are middle class you are not getting dick from Ivy. A loan means you have to pay it back. It's not free. Yes you can go, but you will come out with 200k of student debt.

Btw, I did research thus because I plan to send all my kids to Ivy. They just increase the income level to 120k but net worth of 250k. The net worth level is the difficult hurdle. If your kids are college age and your net worth is below 250k, you are not middle class.
 
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My last post because I think it's circular at this point. Did you guys not read about the kid that pass on all Ivy schools to go to Alabama because of costs? It was national news!!! Again, more facts and truth for you to chew on. If you are middle class you are not getting dick from Ivy. A loan means you have to pay it back. It's not free. Yes you can go, but you will come out with 200k of student debt.

You're as wrong as wrong can be. He passed on the Ivy League schools because he got a full ride at 'Bama. He got offers of aid from all the Ivy League schools but in the end decided that "free" > "not free". Since he plans to go to med school (where an Ivy League undergrad degree is worth less than in other disciplines) he and his family chose to forestall their financial obligations post-grad. It's an entirely legitimate decision, but it was a CHOICE. His parents stated quite clearly that if he wanted to go to an Ivy, they could have made that happen.

So yeah... pretty much what Hudson said.
 
LOL, I think your reply sums it up. of course it's a choice just like the discussion if the private school is worth the extra costs? Not every family has the mean to send their kids to Ivy or private schools. They can take loans to pay for it but loans have to be repaid. Is it better to go to UVA for free or take a 200k loan to go to Ivy? It's a similar question to is it worth paying all that money to go to Delbarton or free public school in Madison? some like you and Hudson say of course it is but it's a lot easier to say that if you can afford it vs having to take out a loan for it. No one is arguing if money wasn't a factor would you send your kids. The question is is it worth the extra cost? We all can agree that a BMW is a better car than a Lexus but is it 10k better? This is really my last post on this.
 
Doesn't the Bama kid kind of make the argument for public school through undergrad for middle class families?
 
Doesn't the Bama kid kind of make the argument for public school through undergrad for middle class families?

Not really.

Houston High School in Germantown, TN is one of the better public high schools in the state.

Nevertheless, while they have an AP participation rate of 56%, their AP Participant Passing Rate is only 70%.

That's pretty poor.

They also seem to have an extremely high overall attrition rate - almost 26% - in spite of the fact that only 11% of the enrollment is classified as "economically disadvantaged".

Ronald Nelson is a genius. He's a rare, exceptional student. Trying to generate some sort of "exception proves the rule" argument is folly.
 
Not sure how I feel about using AP numbers anymore as my understanding is that some schools are basically mandating everyone take the exam, which will skew the pass percentage downward.

My point is basically that you're going to see, I think, more and more people going to public school at every level because of the cost of education at all levels, especially college. At this point having an advanced degree is practically required in most careers for advancement. You see it now in RU admissions.

One area though where private schools will grow is the cities because they have bad public schools but more people sticking around to raise families. Unless everyone in Hoboken decides to send their kids to Hoboken HS all at once, SPP and others in the area will see applications continue to grow.

OTOH, you have Mater Dei almost closing....with millenials among my friends that moved to the burbs, they all moved where they did for the schools and paying on top of the insane property taxes is not in the cards especially when you consider how much even public college will cost soon.
 
While its a different duscussion, attrition is something that stands out to me in the charter / traditional public discussion. I remember a few years back when a number of officials starting making statements suggesting that they were going to move more towards that model and I thought, "it'll be interesting to see what happens when charters can't just dismiss troubled students without anyone noticing."

I'm not anti-charter school; I think privates and charters play integral parts in our education system...but I'm very sick and tired of people trashing public education when it's pretty much part of the backbone of the country.


Joe P.
 
I had a post before that I deleted because I really don't want to get sucked into the debate. It's a personal choice. My wife went to a very well-regarded boarding school in Switzerland. (Long story short -- she was born in Hawaii, moved to Switz., then a good/very good private liberal arts school in the states. Got a job in NJ and met me. Now she's stuck here! LOL) I went to a good public HS and currently a public HS teacher in a good district. We plan on moving to a town with a good/very good school system and sending our kids to public school. It's about your values and fit. We feel that our children will (hopefully) reach their potential, be grounded and well-rounded with our supervision. Different strokes for different folks.

Found this about her school. She went to #2 on the list. She also graduated first in her class. I laugh because she literally went to school with royalty! (Note: It was only about $70,000/yr. when she went.) Also, check out #18.


Number School Annual Tuition
1 Institut Le Rosey $120,000
2 Collège Alpin Beau Soleil $115,000
3 Aiglon College $97,000
4 Institut auf dem Rosenberg $95,575
5 Collège du Léman $90,083[1]
6 Lyceum Alpinum Zuoz $83,389
7 Leysin American School $80,789
8 St George's School in Switzerland $80,526
9 The American School In Switzerland $76,277
10 Brillantmont International School $67,991
11 Hurtwood House $62,504
12 Tonbridge School $56,201
13 Winchester College $56,170
14 Harrow School $55,725
15 Eton College $55,331
16 Idyllwild Arts Academy $55,200
17 Stevenson School $54,600
18 Lawrenceville School $53,320
19 Marymount International School London $51,632
20 Loomis Chaffee School $51,440
21 Sotogrande International School $51,394
22 American School Foundation of Monterrey $48,543
 
LOL, I think your reply sums it up. of course it's a choice just like the discussion if the private school is worth the extra costs? Not every family has the mean to send their kids to Ivy or private schools. They can take loans to pay for it but loans have to be repaid. Is it better to go to UVA for free or take a 200k loan to go to Ivy? It's a similar question to is it worth paying all that money to go to Delbarton or free public school in Madison? some like you and Hudson say of course it is but it's a lot easier to say that if you can afford it vs having to take out a loan for it. No one is arguing if money wasn't a factor would you send your kids. The question is is it worth the extra cost? We all can agree that a BMW is a better car than a Lexus but is it 10k better? This is really my last post on this.
My brother did tax returns for an individual that had to take a second mortgage to finance his two kids education at Harvard. They went to a public school. However, my co worker had two daughters who had a full scholarship to Princeton. They needed it since the Rutgers medical school for them over $200k.
 
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