Poll: The “Pike can’t recruit” trope
- Thread starter KingHigh
- Start date
This is so ridiculous. His recruiting was terrible his first few years. It’s now exceptional. Why is this so difficult?
This was going to be my response.
Isn't it that as the team got better, recruiting got better?
Recruiting was bad (allegedly - I don't follow recruiting closely but it seems that's the general consensus?).
But now it's great.
Note - doubtful many will want to acknowledge but coincidencently recruiting took off when NIL came into play? I'm sure that didn't hurt.
The question now is, how much has NIL helped Pike's recruiting?
It's certainly leveled the playing field, hasn't it?
It's pretty well reported Ace has a near $1m (?) NIL setup, right?
Pre-NIL, he was still going to get money from the "blue bloods".
Same for Harper.
Luckily, we can also offer $$ now too.
Even if Rutgers isn't offering the most $$, offering zero likely takes us off the table.
It seems we are getting "close enough" with $$ and then HC Pike (and staff) are able to put us over the top.
Now that he’s recruiting the low ceilingers will switch to he can’t coach.
In addition to better talent, it appears we're also adapting to a more uptempo scoring offense.
Another "negative" potentially off the table if the team actually starts scoring.
It wasn’t at the level of the 2024 class obviously but I don’t see how anyone can say it was that bad. The guys he got in his second (Geo Baker, Myles Johnson), third (Ron Harper Jr, Montez Mathis, Caleb McConnell, Jacob Young), fourth (Paul Mulcahy, Akwasi Yeboah) and fifth (Cliff Omoruyi, Mawot Mag) classes were the core that got us to the tournament multiple times.
The potential for Pike in recruiting always rested on whether he could build a solid program and a reputation as a good coach who develops players and runs a program that players want to join. That takes time. Other coaches recruit better faster. Not Pike. That was never how he was going to do it, if he was going to do it at all. Those who didn't see that as the route for Pike weren't looking and were generally itching to give quick, hyperbolic opinions and then bask in the reaction. Those opinions may be fun for some, but they're not serious.
That said, Pike isn't fully there yet. It can turn on a dime. While Gavin signed, other big names haven't yet. So it continues. And even if (when!) they sign, it will still continue. But I'm certainly happy he's here.
(And, yes, NIL will continue to be interesting with its effects being not so easily forecasted--as with any prediction of the future.)
That said, Pike isn't fully there yet. It can turn on a dime. While Gavin signed, other big names haven't yet. So it continues. And even if (when!) they sign, it will still continue. But I'm certainly happy he's here.
(And, yes, NIL will continue to be interesting with its effects being not so easily forecasted--as with any prediction of the future.)
If the recruiting was so terrible, how did we get so much better?
It was never terrible. It was not what it is now, however.
He’s a good coach and he coaches kids “up”…..and, as I noted his recruiting has gotten much better.
His classes in the B1G since 2017 were ranked the following according to 247. All the services are more or less similar.
2017. 10th
2018. 10th
2019. 13th
2020. 4th
2021. 13th
2022. 11th
2023. 8th
2024. 1st - as of now and without Harper
Incredible uptick in the last two years.
So, yes, one could say his recruiting was good because he found overlooked recruits like Geo and Eugene, and even Harper. However, he also had a lot of early missies like Doucoure, Diallo, Goode, Bullock etc.
How did the team get better? Coaching matters!
Despite what some like to think - it's not all "Jimmy's and Joe's".
And you just roll the ball out there.
Why even bother with coaches then?
Good coaching closes the gap between talent.
It doesn't 100% overcomes it - but it incrementally gets you closer.
As the gap closes, that entices marginally better talent to sign on.
"Look what I did what those guys. You're much better. I can do wonders with you."
Obviously football and basketball are different, but this is why people keep brining up the impact of coaching up talent regarding the football team and not being resigned to "well can't expect to be competitive until we improve the talent. Just have to wait it out."
HC Pike is literally the model a school like Rutgers needs to follow - because we aren't paying for a big name coach to "instantly turn around recruiting" and instantly upgrade talent.
Despite what some like to think - it's not all "Jimmy's and Joe's".
And you just roll the ball out there.
Why even bother with coaches then?
Good coaching closes the gap between talent.
It doesn't 100% overcomes it - but it incrementally gets you closer.
As the gap closes, that entices marginally better talent to sign on.
"Look what I did what those guys. You're much better. I can do wonders with you."
Obviously football and basketball are different, but this is why people keep brining up the impact of coaching up talent regarding the football team and not being resigned to "well can't expect to be competitive until we improve the talent. Just have to wait it out."
HC Pike is literally the model a school like Rutgers needs to follow - because we aren't paying for a big name coach to "instantly turn around recruiting" and instantly upgrade talent.
Do people forget he was trying to get kids to go to a bottom feeder that hasn’t been to the dance in nearly 3 decades? An unproven coach (at this level) takes over a program where careers go to die…and people were expecting top 5 classes on Day 1…
His first several classes included the players who went 73-52 over the past four years. Those recruits went to two (2) NCAATs, won a game in the NCAAT, and stopped being a fixture in the "play in" game of the B1G tournament. When your first classes include the players that break a 30 year NCAAT drought and and 38 year drought of winning a NCAAT game they were good recruits. Full stop.
The sentiment was wrong then and is more wrong now.
Eh. Is that how recruiting is graded?
Seems weird to grade recruiting based on results years later.
If we don't do well in 2024-2025 does that mean Ace and Harper shouldn't have been elite recruits?
Nobody is saying those recruits didn't accomplish a lot of turn around the program.
But that perhaps they weren't necessarily great recruits.
Wins. How do you judge recruits? Because If you judge recruits based on how many stars a couple guys on a website give a kid you may be doing it wrong.
That’s exactly how you grade recruiting…how the recruits actually perform when they take the court.
Expectations from fans are a different matter.
As you correctly point out - expectations for great recruiting immediately were likely unreasonable.
So then HC Pike doesn't get credit for recruiting Gavin, Ace, Harper and the rest of the 2024 class since they haven't performed on the court yet?
That sucks for him and the staff.
Not judging recruits.
Judging "recruiting".
If stars don't matter and only wins - then why the hype over 2024 and Ace and Harper? They have zero wins so far.
Nah this is ridiculous.
His recruiting wasn’t terrible in the first few years…especially when you consider that he inherited one of the worst programs in all of D1 basketball.
My opinion is when you are talking about the top 20/30 CBB recruits the sites will get that right more often than wrong. Those top 20/30 kids display a talent level that stands out versus their peers. After the Top 20/30 CBB rankings are clickbait (imo). That's why folks should be excited about the '24 class.
Looking at Rutgers in particular it's clear that RHJ and Caleb were two of the top 50/75 players in their class. Geo Baker was clearly not the 412th best recruit in his class. It was easy to see once you saw them play. After the Top 20/30 that variance is to be expected. Hence my comment about Pike's early recruiting. I remember when Coach P stated that he made Geo a priority recruit in '18. And Ron a priority recruit in '19 when he was a 2*. The services had it wrong. It happens all the time. Pike recruited really good players. Regardless of where Rivals or TOS had Geo or Ron (or Caleb or Myles, etc. etc.) ranked.
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Hoops answered your question much better than I could have. Football can still be a bit of a crapshoot at the top - basketball isn’t. Seems in basketball, the elite kids are always playing against each other (and NBA guys)…you don’t see that in football.
Ranking does not matter. Results do and those recruits helped get the results listed in my signature.
B1G finishes under Pikiell: 14th, 14th, 10th, 8th (tied), 6th (tied), 4th (tied).
It does when you’re trying to be a perennial national championship and B1G title contender.
But when you’re climbing out of the basement (or for us, a cardboard box), being able to find those diamonds in the rough and then helping them maximize their talent is what you need to do.
I voted no just to prove the button works, I think he has done a fine job.
Also the world might end if this board unanimously agreed on something
Also the world might end if this board unanimously agreed on something
Don’t worry, plenty of folks are already planning to call Pike a failure and call for his head if he doesn’t win the tourney in 2025.
I think in CBB after a certain point (I used Top 20/30 above) the majority of players need development.
I'll use the 2017 Rutgers class as a great example of this. Mamadou Doucoure was a big who needed development. Myles Johnson was a big who needed development. One was a Top 100/150 kid according to the recruiting sites. One was a three star with little high major interest. But both needed to develop in college to be productive. You could do the same for the 2018 class with Caleb and Montez. One highly recruited/ranked, one less so. But regardless of their rankings both players needed to develop to be productive at the college level.
I guess you could call that over rated and under rated, but here you have examples of kids who played the same positions at the same school with the same staff and the "lesser recruits" seemed to develop better. (IMO) That is what happens once you get past the "elite" level recruits which makes it hard if not impossible to evaluate an HC as a good recruiter or not.
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It's not all NIL, but Pike wouldn't be getting these types of kids without a large NIL warchest.
And the other schools that get 5 stars weren’t giving bags o cash in the past. On a level playing field Pike and staff clearly can compete. Some fans just always like to make excuses. Bagman really made it impossible in the past.
I think you're overdoing the NIL war chest. Everyone has had one, we just never did.
Everyone always had excellent coaching staffs.....RU was always with 1 coach and random assistants.
Everyone always had facilities and sold out arenas to sell.....the RAC in early December was 4000 seats filled and half a student section.
It's only when RU gets its house in order and actually functions properly, that it immediately becomes all NIL.
We aren't getting Ace Bailey based on the most NIL.....and same with Dylan Harper or others.
We have not a good staff, it is an ELITE staff.....from top to bottom.....AND if I dare step out on a limb and say, the absurd nonsense posted on TOS, trashing Pat Hobbs as if he's some idiot, is 100% bushleague.....he pushed every button politically and got things done for Pike, and got him 2 extensions WELL in advance of market conditions changing.
At some point, if it was all NIL, Bailey would be elsewhere and Kansas would back up the brinks truck for Dylan Harper.
When do we start acting like everyone else has for 3 decades, and understand it is standard operating procedure.....RU is just now realizing it's full potential and the B1G revenue stream allows us to pay legitimate market value for Pike, Knight, TJ, Smoke etc.
We don't get Adidas investing in RU, without the people putting in the work. It's not all NIL folks.....it's a combination of a LOT of things done 4, 5, 6 years ago, during the rebuild.
Literally no one has said it’s all NIL.
Literally what I said is NIL has leveled the field to get Rutgers in the door and give HC Pike and staff a chance to close.
Exactly what you wrote.
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