I think it's hard to judge the 13th player on such limited play in 20 minutes of garbage time up 25 points. When part of a rotation I think he would be more locked in with team defense.
Returning Minutes for 2023-24
- Thread starter RUChoppin
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I think Davis will be a very good defender for us. The question for me is can he do it as a freshman?
Chol was soooo lost on defense. It was concerning to see. I am not saying he will always be bad. He has the length and athleticism to become a good defender for sure
I give somewhat of a pass since he joined the program so late. He may have just been having analysis paralysis trying to think too much about what he should be doing
Chol is the biggest wildcard on the roster. If he hasn't developed he could be glued to the end of the bench again. If he really made strides defensively, S&C, and knocks down threes, then he will force his way into the rotation
It'll also depend on who we land in the portal. A legit P5 level upperclassmen would likely push Chol down the pecking order. That's why rotation and minutes talk is kind of pointless with 4 open scholarships
I’m worried that we end up backfilling the roster with Agee type practice bodies simply because of limited options this late. There’s still a chance for late portal entries from grad students so hopefully we can land someone.
Maybe the offense takes the strides some think it will but where is 70+ points are coming from? Even if starting 5 average 12 ppg each that’s 60 - how many bench points are Chol, Wolf and Davis giving us early if Mag isn’t back yet?. I hope to be pleasantly surprised but I’m concerned that we won’t have the defensive roster to hold teams with a backbone to under 70 points. Even decent mid majors which is why I don’t want any Temples on the schedule.
If Chol has improved enough to get minutes, it will be interesting to see if Pike plays him with Mag/Hyatt or instead of Mag/Hyatt or a little of both.
Mag was a starter and whatever you think of Hyatt, he was in our top 7 for almost all of the season last year and he's top 6 now as well as one of our most experienced guys.
Lot of guesses at how many minutes guys will get, I think the lineup combos are more interesting. A lineup with Cliff, Mag/Hyatt, Chol, Griffiths and then Simpson/Fernandes/Davis at the point - is really interesting.
No idea if that's feasible at this point - just that it's intriguing.
Literally, you just made my point. If Chol was lost on defense in those 20 minutes it's because he was the 13th player on the roster and probably got VERY limited work in practice working in the defensive system. Even for 5 on 5 practice scrimmages his time to learn was very limited. The coaches only get 15 hours per week and during the season its prepping for upcoming opponents when you only have 1 or 2 practice sessions to get ready and some of that time is film sessions looking at opponent tendencies.
Woolfolk also looked lost early in the season and he was part of the rotation. Compared to later in the season it was Night and Day. Palmquist looked lost in the first few games he started playing last year after the Mag injury. By the last game, it was like Night and Day. Not great but decent.
If you say Chol is slow or lacks lateral quickness to stay in front of his man that's a different story.
Funny on Chol - this "scouting video" -
shows him looking good handling the ball and making 3's
in a 118-106 loss
so maybe the lack of defensive principles wasn't a surprise?
shows him looking good handling the ball and making 3's
in a 118-106 loss
so maybe the lack of defensive principles wasn't a surprise?
Yes, it was a medical redshirt. And you can ask Richie who has confirmed that there are no redshirts in basketball other than the medical variety.
Just about All highlight videos only show a player on offense. Gotta watch full game videos to see.defense and who has time for that.
Yup and with that score, it's safe to say there wasn't much defense period.
The fact that he was 13th tells me more than what he did in the 20 minutes
It shouldn't. He was a reclassified junior that came in a year early and then arrived late in mid to late in August. Missed all summer.workouts.
Come on dude. That can't be a serious statement. It's like saying if Purdue beats OSU 95-91 then that proves none of the 16 players who saw the court are can play defense.
I am not saying Chol is or is not a good defender. We will see if he has the effort because the basics are there. Length, lateral movement.
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It's high school not college although they might play 20-minute halves
95-91 is a lot less than 108-116
Actually I believe it’s the other way. He originally reclassified to the next cycle because of lack of offers and then reclassified back once he accepted the RU offer.
The late arrival certainly made it harder to catch up in some areas but if you can play D you should really look as lost as he was on the floor.
You expect something out of him I am not. I am not completely writing him off I am just not expecting him to be in the rotation. I like pleasant surprises.
I have no expectations until I see or hear how he developed over the summer. However, with his 6'8 height and length he could be a candidate for the point man in 3/4 or full court zone pressure that Mag had until Mag is 100%. Maybe in 3-4 minutes spurts per half. Could be a small but good role for the team.
Good point about class year. I just disagree with looking lost. IMO, Looking lost is more about preparation gained in practice. The 13th man does not get the practice reps to get ready, learn Pikiel's defensive rotations because he is on the scout team running opponents stuff.
He looked lost and was lost defensively. You gabe valid reasons for it. There is no sugarcoating his defense last year. Yes for the 20 minutes plus exhibition game.
The NCAA has specific requirements for redshirts in basketball. These requirements include:
The student-athlete must compete in no more than four basketball games during the season.
The student-athlete must not play in a postseason tournament or any other competition.
The student-athlete must not engage in any organized team or individual practice or competition outside of the team’s practice.
The student-athlete must not receive any athletically related financial aid from the school.
The student-athlete must be enrolled in classes and in good academic standing.
The student-athlete must not participate in any team meetings.
Pretty sure, Antonio Chol only played in 4 reg season games and met all the requirements to redshirt to still have 4 years.
The student-athlete must compete in no more than four basketball games during the season.
The student-athlete must not play in a postseason tournament or any other competition.
The student-athlete must not engage in any organized team or individual practice or competition outside of the team’s practice.
The student-athlete must not receive any athletically related financial aid from the school.
The student-athlete must be enrolled in classes and in good academic standing.
The student-athlete must not participate in any team meetings.
Pretty sure, Antonio Chol only played in 4 reg season games and met all the requirements to redshirt to still have 4 years.
The discussion about defense is interesting, because the least effective 1 on 1 defensive players have now left the roster and will be replaced by a defender (Simpson) who showed with steals and deflections late in the year, to be more impactful in games.....
Add in Fernandes and Griffiths at 6'7 and you have longer armed defense at the guard positions/wing, than last year.
Add in Fernandes and Griffiths at 6'7 and you have longer armed defense at the guard positions/wing, than last year.
Stop. We’re losing a DPOY caliber who Pike barely took out of the game. We’re replacing him with a frosh. Enough said. Noah isn’t known for his defense either. We’re in line for a significant drop off at that end, even if Mag comes back close to 100%. Your discounting how much Caleb bailed others out.
For the record, I really hope our strategy is going to be to pick up a kid who plays defense not focus on someone who just shoots. At this late stage, my opinion is that a Miller type would be more helpful than a Kiss type.
Paul and Cam were bad 1 on 1 defenders....yes.
I need to see Fernandes before I pass any judgement.
Chol couldnt get minutes from Hyatt or Oskar last year. It is fair game to discuss his D. It is VERY relevant.
Simpson was a very willing defender.
SUBTRACTIONS
Defensively we lose the DPOY. That hurts a ton
If Mag isn't back, he was DPOY level defender last year so that would be minus 2 elite defenders until he is back
Paul and Cam both struggled one on one guarding the perimeter but were active help defenders and got deflections and steals
Miller was worse as a defender last season than as a freshman for some reason and played no meaningful minutes
Dean's defense was mostly bad and his rebounding for a big was subpar
ADDITIONS
Noah sounds like he isn't a strong defender and is small. Defense is a concern but will hold out hope Pike gets him dialed in
Davis will be a strong defender. Will he as a freshman? TBD but I'm a big Davis truther. His attitude seems perfect for Pike and defense is so mental
Griffiths - long and smart, a little thin but that impact is mostly exaggerated IMO. Footspeed and lateral movement a question mark
Ogbole - major defensive boost to the interior. Instant improvement in rim protection and rebounding any minutes he plays as the backup 5
also....
More Simpson minutes, quick feet and hands. Willing defender who will be better in year 2
Wolf good perimeter big defender. Struggled one on one defending. Should see improvement as he has skills to be a good defender
Defensively we lose the DPOY. That hurts a ton
If Mag isn't back, he was DPOY level defender last year so that would be minus 2 elite defenders until he is back
Paul and Cam both struggled one on one guarding the perimeter but were active help defenders and got deflections and steals
Miller was worse as a defender last season than as a freshman for some reason and played no meaningful minutes
Dean's defense was mostly bad and his rebounding for a big was subpar
ADDITIONS
Noah sounds like he isn't a strong defender and is small. Defense is a concern but will hold out hope Pike gets him dialed in
Davis will be a strong defender. Will he as a freshman? TBD but I'm a big Davis truther. His attitude seems perfect for Pike and defense is so mental
Griffiths - long and smart, a little thin but that impact is mostly exaggerated IMO. Footspeed and lateral movement a question mark
Ogbole - major defensive boost to the interior. Instant improvement in rim protection and rebounding any minutes he plays as the backup 5
also....
More Simpson minutes, quick feet and hands. Willing defender who will be better in year 2
Wolf good perimeter big defender. Struggled one on one defending. Should see improvement as he has skills to be a good defender
Who is our lock down perimeter defender? Mag can guard anyone sure, but what if his recovery goes slower than expected?
If Simpson plays the 2 he will likely have a size mismatch in most games and way too tiny to guard a bigger wing. Do we really want Griffiths on a stud offensive wing? Hyatt?
We could really use a perimeter defender with length to guard scoring wings
If Simpson plays the 2 he will likely have a size mismatch in most games and way too tiny to guard a bigger wing. Do we really want Griffiths on a stud offensive wing? Hyatt?
We could really use a perimeter defender with length to guard scoring wings
Source?
According to the NCAA Division I Manual, there are no exceptions for basketball like there are for football. There have been proposed rule changes for this, but none have been adopted.
Yes - I agree with you. That’s why I hope we focus on recruiting a kid that plays good defense even if the stats don’t pop out. With one of our 3 remaining schollies I’d sign for a kid like Miller back for sure and I agree his D was a little worse last year than the prior but he’s not unplayable on defense and he can handle the ball. That translates into being able to play some 5 minute stretches without killing us. I don’t think adding a Peter Kiss type of kid is going to help us. We’re not going to get one of the caliber of Cam at this late stage. It’s likely going to be a guard version of Agee. Being able to score some points for a low major isn’t going to help us if they can’t defend. Being able to defend without being able to help on offense is more playable in my opinion because you can surround that player with other scorers. We don’t have anyone who can overcome a terrible defender on the court now. Caleb is gone.
Let’s start with your themed premise. We lost Caleb, DOPY level and did things that don’t show up in the stat sheet. We will miss him terribly. But our team dynamic will change to a more offensive uptempo team instead of a drag it out possession to possession team . Arguably but I am on this side of the argument , Noah, Derek and Jamichael will be an upgrade offensively than Paul and Caleb last year and it will be significant. You cannot have your starting guards average 15-20 points per game in the Big 10. I think we have a chance to get 30 out of the 3 guards. We need another guard for depth( injuries) and hopefully that portal transfer is just not a defensive specialist but can put the balll in the hoop.
Gavin will replace and likely surpass Cam’s production and he will get to the line more with his driving. We need a wing backup who can rebound and play defense from the portal.
Mag and Hyatt will man the 4 spot and Hyatt will start until Mag is healthy. We are good there. If Choi gives us some offense and shooting he can help here especially early until Mag is healthy.
We are set at Center with Cliff, Wolf and the new Juco.
We will play more uptempo and will unlikely lock down teams to 60 or 65. I welcome it as Cliff has been waiting to run for years and I think he will get many more chances in transition.
I think what we really need to do , contrary to the data freaks , is make more of our 2 point field goals. Relying on 3 point shooters has not worked well for us but when we were really good , our 2 point % was up near 50% for a lot of the guys. I think Noah , Derek( jump from frosh to soph) , Jamichael , Gavin , Mag and Cliff and Wolf should take the makeable and easier 2 point shots to increase our efficiency. Sprinkle in some 3’s but do not make it necessary to win. We were a terrible 2 point shooting team last year and that has to end. Transition and effecting their mid range games will keep us in and allow us to win more games in my opinion and that is where the improvement must be concentrated. The days of lock down defense I think are or will be too hard for this set of players. This style would lead into 2024 with those recruits coming in just perfectly.
In 2 point attempts we were 29th
in 3 point attempts we were 300th
No doubt we should try to make more of the shots we take
We should take more shots overall and more 3's and fewer 2's (as a % of total shots) - lots more 3's
Get Cliff out of the post and moving around - back to 60% FG%
Educate Simpson on the folly of contested mid-range dribble pullups
And we're halfway there
last season on 2 pointers
Team 672/1404 .479
Cam 78/172 .453
Paul 71/165 .430
Caleb 88/192 .458
Fernandes was 50% last season, 48% the season before that on 2's
Buried the lead but here's the 3 point math that many people don't get:
The average NCAA % on a shot outside of the paint - inside 3 point line was 35%
35% on 2 point shots = 70 points per 100 shots
The average NCAA % on 3 points shots was about 34%
34% on 3 point shots = 102 points per 100 shots
The average NCAA % on 2 points shots in the paint, not at the rim was about 41%
41% on 2 points shots = 82 points per 100 shots
The average NCAA % on shots at the rim was about 63%
63% on 2 point shots = 126 points per 100 shots
How can you compare 2 players output at guard to the output of 3 combined players? If your assuming GG and Cam are a wash, you have to look at the combined scoring of Paul, Caleb and Simpson (Simpson being in Davis role) all together - that’s 24.5 ppg. Even if your right and the 3 of them combine for 30 - I still think the defense we’re looking at giving up more than 3 extra baskets a game unless GG turns out to be a defensive stud. Noah is not supposed to be a good defensive player and that’s coming from the A-10. Simpson is going to be worse covering 2 guards because they will be able to shoot over him. We’re not in a great spot right now on the perimeter defense end.
Yes but that might be okay if we are better offensively especially in transition and if our players 2 point % improves. That makes up the extra points. I have no problem with Derek hitting 5 mid range shots per game since that is steady production plus his transition game and foul shooting. His offense hopefully is better overall to account for the drop off in defense. Noah should provide 10 points a game as well . Jamichael Davis will be a pleasant surprise and I think he will contribute offensively sooner than Derek did last year. Our defense overall takes a hit but the offense should be appreciably better.
The thing with Caleb's defense is when we played Penn State and he guarded Jalen Pickett, that was a big deal.
Caleb had a huge impact on games where the other team relied on one player to generate a lot of their offense
Against more balanced teams, his defense was still fantastic - but considerably less impactful
Offense isn't as much like that.
The team is going to be so different from last year to this year that these point-by-point comparisons are not very insightful. We're not going to score the same number of points, we're not going to give up the same number of points. Our playing style will be very different.
Caleb had a huge impact on games where the other team relied on one player to generate a lot of their offense
Against more balanced teams, his defense was still fantastic - but considerably less impactful
Offense isn't as much like that.
The team is going to be so different from last year to this year that these point-by-point comparisons are not very insightful. We're not going to score the same number of points, we're not going to give up the same number of points. Our playing style will be very different.
Pursde's starting guards averaged 20.7 and they won the conference (Loyer/Smith)
Indiana's starting guards averaged 19.7 (Hood-Schifino/Galloway) and did pretty well. Too.
Ours averaged 21.5 (Spencer/Mulcahy)
Purdue had the player of the year and Indian had TJD . Probably not the best comparison w the guards
The point is there's no one way to succeed in the conference. You can absolutely have guards who average 20 pts if you offset somewhere else.
I get it just saying to compare those guards to ours not including Eddy or TJD seemed off. There is a reason they won and got bye w freshman guards and lower output. Our back court will be up between 27-32 this year.
Sure, but you can have a back court that is more distribution focused if you have a front court that is doing the majority of your scoring. There's no requirement to have a high scoring back court if your points are coming from somewhere else.
You can be very successful in this conference, even winning the whole thing, using a different formula. There's no one right way.
Fair if you have a dominant front court your guards can come along for the ride. IMO you still will need great guard play to be successful. There will always be exceptions but the game has evolved. Absolutely agree no one right way
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