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Rutgers Basketball Has Gotten Worse Offensively Since Last Season. Fact, not opinion

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Not by much but we have gotten ever so slightly worse. Last year in B1G play we averaged .987 points per possession, this year we've averaged .986 points per possession. This is extremely concerning when you consider we returned everyone of consequence, team got "older" and replaced Eugene with a more efficient offensive player in Yeboah. Your core is supposed to make their biggest jump between freshman to soph year and we just haven't seen that.

Here's the problem, pike is a horrendous offensive coach. His entire system just relies on motivation and playing hard and hoping you can turn the other team over and convert it into transition buckets. If teams can slow down Steve Pikiell teams, we're screwed because he simply cannot be teaching a half court offense because we run the half court offense similar to that of a middle school jv team. Yes, that sounds harsh but it's honestly true unfortunately.

In Pike's 11 years in the American East he only won the conference tourney once, his 11th year. Now some would say, that's not fair to judge him on because between 2009-2016 he either won the regular season or made it to the american east title game. Then to me the question begs, if you were the 1 for 8 in the conference tourney when you won the regular season or made the title game what happened? To me I think what happens is pikes entire program is based on motivating guys and getting them to play hard. Come march EVERY team is motivated and playing hard, so he falls on his face because he can't out coach his opposition. In that conference he had talent no par with his peers, here he doesnt.

I've had concerns over Pike and personally, I think we're seeing his ceiling before our eyes. He's going to be very limited in what he can do because he simply doesn't coach offensive basketball. 11-9 is probably our absolute ceiling in years when the big ten is full of good teams, not great teams, which is this year. Down the stretch, 6 of our 8 remaining opponents will be highly motivated to secure tourney position, the two that won't are NW (out) and Maryland who's comfortably in at this point. We're about to see a collapse and an NIT and no, to me that's not an accomplishment.
 
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Our offense has been good enough for us to be 16-7 and 7-5 in the B1G, that's fact - not opinion.

All of the improvement has come on the defensive side.

We're shooting threes worse. Okay, most teams are given the line being moved back, but we're 10th in the conference this year after being 11th last year. We're 0.1% ahead of Purdue. So no improvement there.

We're shooting twos very slightly worse. 46.3% this year, 46.7% last year.

We're shooting free throws very slightly better. 64.3% last year, 64.7% this year. We're also doing a worse job at getting to the line.

About the only thing that's materially improved is that we're turning it over less. But this has been offset by the worse shooting numbers.

It's possible to get to the tournament like this. It would just be a lot easier if our offense was, like, 2% better.
 
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Coach needs to stress the 3 point line being moved back. I think we had 3 or 4 shots last night that we’re good from women’s range but counted as 2. That would have helped tremendously
 
while some of what you are saying is true, alot of it is based on reaction to a couple of losses and to a team who lost by 5 last night to the #9 team with Young suspended and Baker not 100%. Two games ago you wouldnt have given this take. Lets slow down.

Do I think Pike has to recruit a higher level of talent...yes

Is he a defensive minded coached, where emphasis is on rebounding, contesting the shot and forcing turnovers...yes

Does this team only do well when they are getting stops and getting transition buckets..yes

Its obvious that Pike's style is to grind out games that are not pretty. He does this because usually more talent exists on the opposition, its a harder and tougher way to win games but that is his style. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Look at the competition of late though and cut some slack. The defense held Maryland to almost nothing. This team can shut down teams for 10 minutes at a time..that is a plus. That is why Pike is a great coach and has RU in the games at the end. The reason RU is losing is they panicked and lacked composure at the end and didnt make plays. At the RAC vs Purdue and Nebby, they did.

So Pike is going to need to recruit an outside shooter, I am not a big fan of the class coming in thus far so he needs to do better there. Remember we also have a couple of misses in Doucoure and Kiss taking up roster space.

The one area where Pike just has to do better is drawing fouls and getting his team to absorb the contact so the foul actually gets called. Myles was particularly soft last night around the basket with the ball in his hands and that is just inexcusable. Who is coaching them to chuck up 3s at the rate they are. Why isnt Yeboah getting more touches if he can get hot at times? Why is Montez not relied on more when his shot is going down? Who is teaching Caleb to run a fast break down 1 heading into trees? Sure there are things that Pike can clean up

Overall Pike has been outstanding, may get coach of they year though Underwood and Chambers are also contenders. RU has exceeded expecations and almost skipped a year. You are frustrated because we lost a couple of games. Relax we may not have been as good as 7-3 in league...thats okay. This team still has a lot of growth to do. Its a flawed team but its always going to be in the game at the wire and thats why we all love Coach Pikiell despite some criticisms we may have
 
This is not a fact at all so on't try to pass it off as one. To boil down offensive to ppp is shortsighted and clearly doesn't tell the whole picture. So let me do that for you:

- our Adj0 in KenPom this year is 99, we finished 152 lat year.
- We are 140th in turnover rate, we were 225 last year
-285th in 2pt FG% in 209, we are 127th this year

Anyone with eyes can see we are better offensively this year with more ball movement, flow. We are just missing a "dude" to turn to under 4 mins and say "go win us this game," This is always the last piece to the puzzle for a program so take your negativity out of here
 
Conveniently dismissing defense and rebounding. Should we go back to the Eddie method?

You buy a house with a broken water heater and a broken air conditioner. You hire a guy to fix them. Guy gets the water heater up and running in a day. Air conditioner's still broken, though. Says he'll get to it tomorrow, didn't have the right tools. Comes back tomorrow, says he thinks he has the right tools. Afternoon rolls around and you're boiling. Air conditioning still doesn't work. You ask the guy, "hey, I thought you were gonna fix that?" Guy says, "psh, I guess you liked it better when the water heater was broken, too!"
 
Conveniently dismissing defense and rebounding. Should we go back to the Eddie method?
pikes a great defensive coach. In 2020 offense wins basketball games though. This thread is about offense which we're horrific at and very poorly coached on that end of the floor
 
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All of the improvement has come on the defensive side.

We're shooting threes worse. Okay, most teams are given the line being moved back, but we're 10th in the conference this year after being 11th last year. We're 0.1% ahead of Purdue. So no improvement there.

We're shooting twos very slightly worse. 46.3% this year, 46.7% last year.

We're shooting free throws very slightly better. 64.3% last year, 64.7% this year. We're also doing a worse job at getting to the line.

About the only thing that's materially improved is that we're turning it over less. But this has been offset by the worse shooting numbers.

It's possible to get to the tournament like this. It would just be a lot easier if our offense was, like, 2% better.
not true we are shooting 2's at 50.3% this year..a significant improvement
 
Not by much but we have gotten ever so slightly worse. Last year in B1G play we averaged .987 points per possession, this year we've averaged .986 points per possession. This is extremely concerning when you consider we returned everyone of consequence, team got "older" and replaced Eugene with a more efficient offensive player in Yeboah. Your core is supposed to make their biggest jump between freshman to soph year and we just haven't seen that.

Here's the problem, pike is a horrendous offensive coach. His entire system just relies on motivation and playing hard and hoping you can turn the other team over and convert it into transition buckets. If teams can slow down Steve Pikiell teams, we're screwed because he simply cannot be teaching a half court offense because we run the half court offense similar to that of a middle school jv team. Yes, that sounds harsh but it's honestly true unfortunately.

In Pike's 11 years in the American East he only won the conference tourney once, his 11th year. Now some would say, that's not fair to judge him on because between 2009-2016 he either won the regular season or made it to the american east title game. Then to me the question begs, if you were the 1 for 8 in the conference tourney when you won the regular season or made the title game what happened? To me I think what happens is pikes entire program is based on motivating guys and getting them to play hard. Come march EVERY team is motivated and playing hard, so he falls on his face because he can't out coach his opposition. In that conference he had talent no par with his peers, here he doesnt.

I've had concerns over Pike and personally, I think we're seeing his ceiling before our eyes. He's going to be very limited in what he can do because he simply doesn't coach offensive basketball. 11-9 is probably our absolute ceiling in years when the big ten is full of good teams, not great teams, which is this year. Down the stretch, 6 of our 8 remaining opponents will be highly motivated to secure tourney position, the two that won't are NW (out) and Maryland who's comfortably in at this point. We're about to see a collapse and an NIT and no, to me that's not an accomplishment.


@kyk1827

I know you bleed Scarlet like the rest of us. I agree that D only basketball is ...boring. Sort of like Pro QB in an age of RPO's / DUAL (see NFL MVP).

However, Pike took over a ship that had not only sailed but SUNK. The fact he's 1 game under .500 is AMAZING.

I want us to be exciting. I want us to put up points. I want us to WIN.

But to do that we'll need to be exciting (check...we've captured headlines / were rated for the first time in 41 years). We'll need to put up points / win (we have a winning record...and will have for the first time since the Flood...er ah Waters).

We need players who have GAME. We need players who can shoot the lights out. And with our new facilities and exposure (last night was the first time on Fox in forever?)...we'll get them.

Suggest you stop busting Pike's :Basketball: :Hoops::Basketball: :Hoops:'s ...and get on board!

MO
 
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All of the improvement has come on the defensive side.

We're shooting threes worse. Okay, most teams are given the line being moved back, but we're 10th in the conference this year after being 11th last year. We're 0.1% ahead of Purdue. So no improvement there.

We're shooting twos very slightly worse. 46.3% this year, 46.7% last year.



We're shooting free throws very slightly better. 64.3% last year, 64.7% this year. We're also doing a worse job at getting to the line.

About the only thing that's materially improved is that we're turning it over less. But this has been offset by the worse shooting numbers.

It's possible to get to the tournament like this. It would just be a lot easier if our offense was, like, 2% better.



this is what we are also doing right

2020: 16-7/7-5
2019: 11-11/4-8
 
Talking about Big Ten games only. I don't care that Myles Johnson can dunk on Lafayette or Geo Baker can take it to the hole against Niagara. That tells me nothing about what the team is against Big Ten opponents.
So what about Seton Hall, Pittsburgh, SFA, etc.. You just want to ignore all Big ten opponents? That is called cherry picking. Not to mention comparing an 11 game sample size to a 23 game sample size is unfair and pointless.

Also you have to adjust for college basketball season to season because of rule changes etc. Offense is down across the board so you must look at were we rank in the country with respect to other teams. You can't compare "oh we shot this x season and y this season, its worse!!!"

Fact of the matter is RU is better offensively, with respect to the rest of the country, then they were last year. And if you include all game, like any normal analysis, we are statistically better in many categories.
 
Not by much but we have gotten ever so slightly worse. Last year in B1G play we averaged .987 points per possession, this year we've averaged .986 points per possession.

So..... you start a whole thread based on the premise that our offense is worse than last season, and it's because we're scoring .001 fewer points per possession? So, over a thousand possessions, we've scored 1 less point?

Also, where are you getting your data from - because I can't find a site that shows those two values for last year and this year.
 
while some of what you are saying is true, alot of it is based on reaction to a couple of losses and to a team who lost by 5 last night to the #9 team with Young suspended and Baker not 100%. Two games ago you wouldnt have given this take. Lets slow down.

Do I think Pike has to recruit a higher level of talent...yes

Is he a defensive minded coached, where emphasis is on rebounding, contesting the shot and forcing turnovers...yes

Does this team only do well when they are getting stops and getting transition buckets..yes

Its obvious that Pike's style is to grind out games that are not pretty. He does this because usually more talent exists on the opposition, its a harder and tougher way to win games but that is his style. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Look at the competition of late though and cut some slack. The defense held Maryland to almost nothing. This team can shut down teams for 10 minutes at a time..that is a plus. That is why Pike is a great coach and has RU in the games at the end. The reason RU is losing is they panicked and lacked composure at the end and didnt make plays. At the RAC vs Purdue and Nebby, they did.

So Pike is going to need to recruit an outside shooter, I am not a big fan of the class coming in thus far so he needs to do better there. Remember we also have a couple of misses in Doucoure and Kiss taking up roster space.

The one area where Pike just has to do better is drawing fouls and getting his team to absorb the contact so the foul actually gets called. Myles was particularly soft last night around the basket with the ball in his hands and that is just inexcusable. Who is coaching them to chuck up 3s at the rate they are. Why isnt Yeboah getting more touches if he can get hot at times? Why is Montez not relied on more when his shot is going down? Who is teaching Caleb to run a fast break down 1 heading into trees? Sure there are things that Pike can clean up

Overall Pike has been outstanding, may get coach of they year though Underwood and Chambers are also contenders. RU has exceeded expecations and almost skipped a year. You are frustrated because we lost a couple of games. Relax we may not have been as good as 7-3 in league...thats okay. This team still has a lot of growth to do. Its a flawed team but its always going to be in the game at the wire and thats why we all love Coach Pikiell despite some criticisms we may have

Solid post.

In regard to last night though the problem is we didn’t lose because young was out and geo was injured we lost because Pikiell was clueless on offense.
 
So what about Seton Hall, Pittsburgh, SFA, etc.. You just want to ignore all Big ten opponents? That is called cherry picking. Not to mention comparing an 11 game sample size to a 23 game sample size is unfair and pointless.

Also you have to adjust for college basketball season to season because of rule changes etc. Offense is down across the board so you must look at were we rank in the country with respect to other teams. You can't compare "oh we shot this x season and y this season, its worse!!!"

Fact of the matter is RU is better offensively, with respect to the rest of the country, then they were last year. And if you include all game, like any normal analysis, we are statistically better in many categories.

We scored 0.97 points per possession against Stephen F. Austin. It was also 0.97 against Seton Hall.

It was 0.88 against Pittsburgh.

If you think those games are going to HELP your argument about the offense then by all means include them.
 
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John Chaney won lots of games and went to lots of tournaments playing ugly offense and stellar defense. Ditto with Bob Huggins. It’s ugly to watch but can be effective if talent is upgraded.
 
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OMG, this is easy one.

Are we a better team than last year? Yes or NO

When you start answering No then its time to worry.

Funny totally off track now but this is the type of logic that has turned the New York Football Giants into the laughing stock of the league.

You HAVE to look at e underlying data to inform your decision making.
 
Look we pointed to Bart all year how he rated our team and he said what could derail us is if teams start shooting the 3 against us better because 3pt D is mostly luck and teams were missing a ton of open looks against us to date.

Guess what’s happening?
 
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A lot of coaching blame on here for what clearly looks like execution to me. Really doubt Pike told the team to throw up quick threes in several possessions down the stretch in each of these last two losses
 
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Yeah, the 8th-best three-point shooting team in the country won the title. What's your point?
They built their entire make up on defense that's my point. This thread was started and the conclusion was that PIke reached his peak and building off defense in 2020 is not possible. But, Virginia would be to differ. You don't become Villanova offensively overnight buddy sometime you have to build a foundation.

By OP and your logic you would have been calling for Tony Bennett's head after the 18th season. "ItS NoT PoSsIbLe To FoCuS on DeFeNcE and WiN". How did that work out? You don't walk in the way Pike is building it and get 5 stars right out of the gate. Offense comes with skill in college basketball more then coaching.

PS. in case you forgot they played Texas Tech the number 1 defensive team in the nation. Point made or do you need more??
 
We scored 0.97 points per possession against Stephen F. Austin. It was also 0.97 against Seton Hall.

It was 0.88 against Pittsburgh.

If you think those games are going to HELP your argument about the offense then by all means include them.
Buddy can you get through your thick skull that offense is down this year across basketball. That doesn't help with your argument either.
 
A lot of coaching blame on here for what clearly looks like execution to me. Really doubt Pike told the team to throw up quick threes in several possessions down the stretch in each of these last two losses

Pike has said he let’s player so what they want on offense here and there if they are playing D and rebounding. I like that approach. You gotta let guys play in the flow of the game. Problem was he let it go on way too long.
 
Not by much but we have gotten ever so slightly worse. Last year in B1G play we averaged .987 points per possession, this year we've averaged .986 points per possession. This is extremely concerning when you consider we returned everyone of consequence, team got "older" and replaced Eugene with a more efficient offensive player in Yeboah. Your core is supposed to make their biggest jump between freshman to soph year and we just haven't seen that.

Here's the problem, pike is a horrendous offensive coach. His entire system just relies on motivation and playing hard and hoping you can turn the other team over and convert it into transition buckets. If teams can slow down Steve Pikiell teams, we're screwed because he simply cannot be teaching a half court offense because we run the half court offense similar to that of a middle school jv team. Yes, that sounds harsh but it's honestly true unfortunately.

In Pike's 11 years in the American East he only won the conference tourney once, his 11th year. Now some would say, that's not fair to judge him on because between 2009-2016 he either won the regular season or made it to the american east title game. Then to me the question begs, if you were the 1 for 8 in the conference tourney when you won the regular season or made the title game what happened? To me I think what happens is pikes entire program is based on motivating guys and getting them to play hard. Come march EVERY team is motivated and playing hard, so he falls on his face because he can't out coach his opposition. In that conference he had talent no par with his peers, here he doesnt.

I've had concerns over Pike and personally, I think we're seeing his ceiling before our eyes. He's going to be very limited in what he can do because he simply doesn't coach offensive basketball. 11-9 is probably our absolute ceiling in years when the big ten is full of good teams, not great teams, which is this year. Down the stretch, 6 of our 8 remaining opponents will be highly motivated to secure tourney position, the two that won't are NW (out) and Maryland who's comfortably in at this point. We're about to see a collapse and an NIT and no, to me that's not an accomplishment.
This isn't a gotcha question - where did Pike's SB teams rank offensively in their conference while he was there?

Genuinely curious and too lazy to look it up.
 
You buy a house with a broken water heater and a broken air conditioner. You hire a guy to fix them. Guy gets the water heater up and running in a day. Air conditioner's still broken, though. Says he'll get to it tomorrow, didn't have the right tools. Comes back tomorrow, says he thinks he has the right tools. Afternoon rolls around and you're boiling. Air conditioning still doesn't work. You ask the guy, "hey, I thought you were gonna fix that?" Guy says, "psh, I guess you liked it better when the water heater was broken, too!"
Whatever. Year 4 of what we all knew was at the very least a 5-year re-building job if not more. We have guys that have shown potential offensively, they just have not been consistent and in the case of one guy, there's no doubt in my mind that he's not healthy. And as the great Pat Riley once said, "No rebounds, no rings."
 
Virginia was 6th in defensive efficiency last year but they were also 5th in offensive efficiency. Low scoring teams still need to be efficient on offense and UVA was amazing at that

-Adam
using Virgina as an example is more from a place of what is possible. OP made mention that Pi will not be any more successful because he builds his program off D. Virgina is the perfect example of the opposite of that.

Do you need to be good offensively to win a national championship? Of course. But what national champion in recent history has ever ranked outside the top 40 in either category?

You can build a programs identity of defense and jimmy and joes will come.
 
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Last year 14 wins total
This year 16 wins, with 8 games to go

All that needs to be said.

PS. Virginia is #1 in defense efficiency to our 7th but 276th offensively compared to our 99th. They are hideous offensively to us, avg 56 pts a game 350th out of 353 team
 
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LOL, they had 3 nba draft picks putting the ball in the bucket. Awful example
What was said about Tony Bennett for all the years before last. Your OP could replace Pikiells name with Bennett and you'd be just like the masses. Point remains you can build a program off of D and the offense will come. Something you explicitly said is not possible
 
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