So here’s the thing

[RUsojo]

Was typing out a long paragraph but I’ll just list some things about this program that some people need to hear, some people didn’t listen to 2 years ago, along with some other tidbits:

1. Don’t jump off the bandwagon too soon. Alignment from most of you (you all know I wasn’t buying in yet; though I always liked Pike) is what got this team national recognition at some level. Even if it isn’t deserved yet.

2. @bac2therac will remember I was against firing Eddie one year too soon because I thought more money would allow to make a bigger hire. Really the point there all along is there are two ways to rebuild...name coach who can recruit big classes instantly or a slow build.

3. We are in a slow build. SHU and PSU are the model. I pointed out a while ago it wasn’t til 2 years AFTER PSU recruited a class top half of conference back to back that they made the tournament in year 6 or 7.

4. Due to the above, the 2020 and 2021 classes are CRUCIAL, as I’ve been saying. Right now it’s not looking great. Although I think recruiting wasn’t very good in years 1-3 with some key misses I buy into the fact that Pike couldn’t be expected to do too much there taking over Eddies laughing stock.

5. Higher expectations in year 4 are ok. But missing them is not the end of the world if recruiting is alright. Don’t overact and kill momentum of the program (more than on the court product could do) before you need to.

6. The defense is not good

7. The big problem as I said preseason is in half court no one can get to the rim except walking turnover Jacob Young

8. Pikiell is notoriously slow in figuring out his rotations. It usually takes him until 3 or so games into big play to get it right.

9. Even then sometimes in game he really sticks with the wrong guy too long or sits a guy too long who is clearly the catalyst for the team in a given night whoever it may be.

10. Recruiting in 2020 and 2021 is all that matters in determining the success or lack there of of Pikes tenure.

11. Ok, FT shooting still!!!!!

All in all a terrible effort but a game where multiple times we were a quick two minute run from going down to the wire.

 

[bac2therac]

good points all around and yes i and some others here tend to be too negative when we lose and yes I dont think the team and program is as bad as it looks but yes recruiting is key but I am worried about it, not enthused over next year. Must land Cliff next year.

I do think its year 6 goal for the ncaa. I never thought ncaa this year and next year was always questionable borderline.

as for hiring. Remember we courted Hurley heavily...lol Hobbs followed a similar courtship with him as he did with Schiano. I do think that Hurley would have recruited better and may have had RU a bit ahead of where Pike has them right now. However I disagree with you...Jordan needed to be fired. I do not think Hobbs was getting anyone better than Pikiell. Waiting another year I bet we wind up with Pikiell anyhow

the half court offense is dreadful, we have too many guys who play the same position and role and none of them are world beaters. Its true we were a two minute run away but lets face it, it wasnt coming, and its disappointing to lose to two schools younger than us

 

[willisneverrana43]

It’s not FT shooting. It’s shooting.

 

[NickRU714]

SHU wasn't a slow build.
Willard stunk and was on the hot seat.
Then in 2014 he "miraculously".....$$$$$..... got a top 5 recruiting class by hiring the handlers of recruits as assistant coaches.

SHU conference results:
2011: 7-11 (12th of 16)
2012: 8-10 (8th of 16) - NIT
2013: 3-15 (12th of 15 - techinically they were 13th since LU vacated most of the season)
2014: 6-12 (8th out of 10)
"Signed" elite recruiting class
2015: 6-12 (8th out of 10)
2016: 12-6 and turned things around.

 

[RU-ROCS]

SHU wasn't a slow build.
Willard stunk and was on the hot seat.
Then in 2014 he "miraculously".....$$$$$..... got a top 5 recruiting class by hiring the handlers of recruits as assistant coaches.

SHU conference results:
2011: 7-11 (12th of 16)
2012: 8-10 (8th of 16) - NIT
2013: 3-15 (12th of 15 - techinically they were 13th since LU vacated most of the season)
2014: 6-12 (8th out of 10)
"Signed" elite recruiting class
2015: 6-12 (8th out of 10)
2016: 12-6 and turned things around.

Yup. More proof that it's the Larry's and Joe's more than X's and O's. The biggest concern with Pike, who I think is a very good coach, is the current recruiting class, which consists entirely of "diamonds in the rough" that no other top-conference teams wanted! If that doesn't change he will be out in another couple years.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

1. Fans are emotional and don't think clearly and rationally after losses (I certainly include myself in this boat)
2. There is a learning curve and every time we make a change we strip our coach of benefiting of learning from mistakes
3. Pike is a real good guy and he is the kind of guy you want your son to be as your coach and he is a very good ambassador to the program.
4. Despite what people think or have been saying he is a good X and O coach. His teams play hard. His teams have played good defense despite individually having great tools for D
5. We arent hiring a coach on top of Schiano that is going to make $3-$4 million. In the price range we pay it is highly doubtful we will do better

I have predicted that at least 2X we will call for a contract extension and 2X we wiil be talking about like after Pikiell. Things are going as planned AND I suspect within 2 weeks extension will be uttered on the message board.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Yup. More proof that it's the Larry's and Joe's more than X's and O's. The biggest concern with Pike, who I think is a very good coach, is the current recruiting class, which consists entirely of "diamonds in the rough" that no other top-conference teams wanted! If that doesn't change he will be out in another couple years.

With all due respect.....you are a legitimate Top 100 kid, in 2019 why in the world would you go to Rutgers. Not sure how these guys will turn out, but he is finally recruiting the way I want him recruiting. Pretending something we aren't we will continue to land guys who can't shoot and guys with star ratings that clearly are wrong.

 

[Russ Wood]

3. We are in a slow build. SHU and PSU are the model. I pointed out a while ago it wasn’t til 2 years AFTER PSU recruited a class top half of conference back to back that they made the tournament in year 6 or 7.

Penn State went to the tournament?

 

[knights1212]

I thought Steve already received an extension.

 

[kcg88]

4. Despite what people think or have been saying he is a good X and O coach. His teams play hard. His teams have played good defense despite individually having great tools for D

Coaching effort is different from coaching Xs and Os. I don't know how you watch the team this year and conclude that they're being coached well on Xs and Os.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

There are some things that I see drive me crazy. Unfortunately I don’t think players are coached through the years like they used to.

Spacing in transition
Simple jump stops to avoid charges
Passing at wrong times in transition
Inability to use left hand when finishing

Having said that there is a lot of coaching going on in game. He relies on assistants and they are constantly giving feedback. He is calling plays from the sideline too.

When a defensive back doesn’t get an interception fans yell why don’t we teach our guys to turn their head (like it is easy to run on a full sprint which your head turn). Here we do 7 games with light on guard pressure and initiating offense is easy. All of a sudden PiTt isn’t like those 7 and they make life difficult getting in sets. The result is a lot of dribbling and not running things or doing them well.

When Paul is in the game he constantly gets us in sets and you can see and hear him doing it. Vs Pitt he was fighting for his life just holding on to the ball.

 

[kcg88]

So I'm as harsh a Pikiell critic as anyone, but Six years has to be the baseline looking around the country... years 4 and 5 are VERY important however.

DePaul is 9-0 this year... It's Leitao's 5th year. First three they combined for 9 Big East wins, but in year 4 they had a winning record and went 7-11 in the conference. The last two coaches before him were fired after year 5 because they showed no progress like that.

Pat Chambers seems to have it going at Penn State in year 9... but he posted a winning record in year 4 and then improved to 7-11 in conference in year 5. They fell back in year 6 but he had gotten talent into the program and the next year they won the NIT.

Before him, Ed DeChellis won the NIT in year 6 after doing pretty much nothing for the first five years. Two years after the NIT win they were in the NCAA tournament.

Brad Brownell made the tournament in year 1 at Clemson, but was going backwards in years 2 and 3. An NIT bid in year 4 bought him some more time, it took him until year 8 to get back to the tournament.

Now for some guys who didn't deserve the 6th year:

Washington State fired Ken Bone and Ernie Kent after five years each. Bone inherited a very healthy program from Tony Bennett and went 7-29 in the Pac-12 his last two years. That doesn't merit a 6th year.

Ernie Kent stepped in and went 7-11 his first year, but then 15-57 the rest of the way against a baaaad Pac-12. Their highest KenPom rank under Kent was 186th. So again, no 6th year merited. BTW the new guy has them at #156 this year.

So long as Pikiell is a good ambassador for the University (he is), six years is the baseline considering what he was given to start out with, which was not much. If Rutgers is going 5-15 to 7-13 in the Big Ten, he's getting six years.

The only way he doesn't is if things go really south, the team goes like 5-15 this year, a bunch of guys transfer out this off-season, and then they go 3-17 next year with no impact recruits signed... That's the only way I see there being a real possibility he's gone sooner.

 

[kcg88]

PS: If this year does end up as a disappointment (6-14 or worse) I would like to see Pikiell encouraged (ahem) to shake up his coaching staff.

 

[bac2therac]

Pike will most certainly get 6 years and if any NIT happens in year 5 or 6, he likely sees 8 years

I think Penn State is basically what we are going to get as a program. Some flirtations with NCAA and maybe even making one here or there but mainly NIT as the highlights. Look as solid as Chambers has coached and recruited there they still havent been able to break out into the top half of the league. Its a long slog and RU fans might have to be realize that it might entail more NITs than NCAAs

 

[kcg88]

Pike will most certainly get 6 years and if any NIT happens in year 5 or 6, he likely sees 8 years

I think Penn State is basically what we are going to get as a program. Some flirtations with NCAA and maybe even making one here or there but mainly NIT as the highlights. Look as solid as Chambers has coached and recruited there they still havent been able to break out into the top half of the league. Its a long slog and RU fans might have to be realize that it might entail more NITs than NCAAs

The Hill/Rice/Jordan triumvirate made everyone a little trigger happy, I think. As long as the coach is not a complete disaster on the court or an embarrassment off of it, five years is the baseline for programs of Rutgers' ilk. And given Pikiell inherited a giant mess, that easily extends to six.

Jeff Lebo went six years at Auburn, made the NIT once. Tony Barbee followed him and got four years... he was only let go because players kept fleeing the program and/or getting into legal trouble. After that it took Bruce Pearl, a really good coach independent of how sleazy he is as a human, four years to get to the postseason.

Trent Johnson only got four years at TCU but he had seasons of 0-18 and 2-16 in conference. (And an alum in Jamie Dixon was willing to come coach them) RU won't fall to those depths under Pikiell, I don't think.

It took Johnny Dawkins SIX years to make the tournament at Stanford, a school at that been in the dance 11 of the previous 12 seasons before he arrived.

It's a strawman to say Pikiell shouldn't go after this year, because I don't think anyone is actually advocating for that. But we're all going to have to get comfortable with Pikiell essentially being Gary Waters, who would've gotten more time if not for the weird situation with him at the end.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

There should be no timeline at this point. Change for change sake is VERY bad. I need to see clear evidence that a coach won't get it done. We aren't even remotely close at this point to even have these conversations.

I just wish people had realistic expectations. This was to be a rebuilding year. 9 months ago I thought '19-'20 was the year and was very concerned about '20-'21. '20-'21 became '19-'20 either when a player initially got hurt OR left the program....probably the former.

 

[bwrlaw]

Coach can’t put the ball in the basket. All of the examples sited need one key thing. To have an under the radar recruit that then breaks out and becomes a top scorer in the league.

 

[brad1218]

My biggest concern is this years class. It is nowhere near good enough as it stands right now. If recruiting this year and next year doesn’t get much better real fast it is over. Simple as that.

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

Need a few pure shooters

 

[seels2662]

I'm fine with this. But right now that 2020 class is not that great. So don't back up your expectations then if that class stays what it is right now. If the 2020 class is a stinker, combined with what will look like to be another year without a postseason, then you have to come out and say Pike is in hot water.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

The new RWJ Barnabas Center has only been open for three months. Seeing a building under construction isn’t the same as seeing a completed facility for most people. We are just starting to have high school players and coaches get a glimpse of how committed we are to turning things around. Maybe it was having to endure several years of the program basically not having a coach, but still all in on Coach Pike. Just my two cents. Go Rutgers !!!:Rutgers:Basketball: :Hoops:

 

[kcg88]

There should be no timeline at this point. Change for change sake is VERY bad. I need to see clear evidence that a coach won't get it done. We aren't even remotely close at this point to even have these conversations.

I just wish people had realistic expectations. This was to be a rebuilding year. 9 months ago I thought '19-'20 was the year and was very concerned about '20-'21. '20-'21 became '19-'20 either when a player initially got hurt OR left the program....probably the former.

The year for what? There was absolutely nothing wrong with expecting a winning record and an NIT bid this season, even post-Eugene.

 

[ScarletKid2008]

This years class is on life support from being (I think) a huge disappointment. Cliff is the only big target that can completely change that narrative, but that is such a long shot. Especially if the team play this season doesn't excite or instill confidence.

Hence why everyone is kind of freaking out because we're about to potentially start that negative feedback loop in college sports!

New coach gets 3 years of new "excitement" or excuses that allow him to recruit differently from the last guy. During year 3/4 if the results aren't there, you don't have much to recruit on anymore and then you start to re-tread in the recruiting rankings. Which then of course leads to much much more difficult obstacles to getting the results on the court. And the loop starts to speed up.

Pike is at the cusp of this. Unless Harper, Geo and crew blossom and explode next year - he's in big trouble with the last 2 classes which have followed Harper's class.

 

[bac2therac]

There should be no timeline at this point. Change for change sake is VERY bad. I need to see clear evidence that a coach won't get it done. We aren't even remotely close at this point to even have these conversations.

I just wish people had realistic expectations. This was to be a rebuilding year. 9 months ago I thought '19-'20 was the year and was very concerned about '20-'21. '20-'21 became '19-'20 either when a player initially got hurt OR left the program....probably the former.

I think we are having this discussion not because anyone wants Pike gone or anyone is thinking he will fail here, its just a legit time to have these discussions. The first 3 years the program got a total pass because of the mess it was in, at most programs its usual 2 but he got an extra year. By year 4 that is when its fair to set expectations, goals and timelines about what is to come. I personally feel that Pike will have 7 years to prove himself. Now remember the peeps who were outraged when Hurley demanded a 7 year contract and calling it a 7 year rebuild...ya know why? because it is. We will know by year 6 on where this is headed.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

My biggest concern is this years class. It is nowhere near good enough as it stands right now. If recruiting this year and next year doesn’t get much better real fast it is over. Simple as that.

Which class are you talking about? The one that has played 7 games or the one who havent played at all?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I think we are having this discussion not because anyone wants Pike gone or anyone is thinking he will fail here, its just a legit time to have these discussions. The first 3 years the program got a total pass because of the mess it was in, at most programs its usual 2 but he got an extra year. By year 4 that is when its fair to set expectations, goals and timelines about what is to come. I personally feel that Pike will have 7 years to prove himself. Now remember the peeps who were outraged when Hurley demanded a 7 year contract and calling it a 7 year rebuild...ya know why? because it is. We will know by year 6 on where this is headed.

Why didn't we have this discussion at the beginning of the season or Sunday night?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I personally feel that Pike will have 7 years to prove himself.

That's the mindset that got us Fred Hill Jr., followed by Mike Rice, followed by Eddie Jordan.

Don't let some preconceived timeline dictate what is right for the program.

Did Gary Waters make mistakes? YES
Did he make adjustments ? YES
Did he improve over his time as CEO of RU hoops? YES

 

[brad1218]

Which class are you talking about? The one that has played 7 games or the one who havent played at all?

Both. Last years class was weak and this one is worse. Have to live in the top 100. You and I disagree in that and that’s fine. We will see eventually who is right.

The closest we have come to making something happen was with Rice. His first class was great and he was about to back it up with Jenkins and Hart before Murdock screwed us and Rice lost control. That is the type of recruiting it will take.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The 2 classes combined have played a grand total of 10 minutes vs. P6 teams.....most haven't played their senior year in HS and we are calling them weak?

Wow

 

[kcg88]

The 2 classes combined have played a grand total of 10 minutes vs. P6 teams.....most haven't played their senior year in HS and we are calling them weak?

Wow

He's talking about the rankings. Of course lower-rated guys can outplay their ranking but you don't count on that happening.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Look at the best players Pike has brought here......
Eugene, Myles, Baker and Harper......by your definition they are weak.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

He's talking about the rankings. Of course lower-rated guys can outplay their ranking but you don't count on that happening.

That line of thinking is why this has been the worst major conference basketball program.

 

[brad1218]

Look at the best players Pike has brought here......
Eugene, Myles, Baker and Harper......by your definition they are weak.

Harper was a top 150 4 star. Johnson was highly rated as well. Baker is not a big ten player. Eugene was an exception.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

He's talking about the rankings. Of course lower-rated guys can outplay their ranking but you don't count on that happening.

One thing I can count on happening....with GREAT certainty. higher rated guys that go to Rutgers will underplay their rating. Without fail.

If you are Rutgers in Phase 1 or Phase 2, and don't recruit illegally, of the build you have no choice but to recruit lower rated guys and have them outplay their "ratings." It is the only way.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Harper was a top 150 4 star. Johnson was highly rated as well. Baker is not a big ten player. Eugene was an exception.

What was Harper when he was recruited?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

FDU
Georgia State
Howard
Illinois College (what the heck is this)
Miami (OH)
Nebraska
Radford

If Harper Jr was 4 star that would not be the complete list of schools that had an interest

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Myles Johnson

Cal Riverside
Cal Northridge
Colgate
Fordham
Grand Canyon (north rim or south rim?)
Hawaii
Lehigh
Loyola Marymount
UCSB
UTEP
Western Kentucky
Yale

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Geo Baker

list is VERY long
15 no names
Kansas State

 

[kcg88]

Look at the best players Pike has brought here......
Eugene, Myles, Baker and Harper......by your definition they are weak.

And we're, what, the 80th best team in the country? Which guys is Pike getting that are going to take us from 80 to 50?

Given the new practice facility and the relatively strong season relative to expectations, the hope was that recruiting would progress from where it was three years ago. It has not.

We're not going to fall off the map with Mulcahy, Reiber, Palmquist, and Mag, but it's hard to see us taking a step forward with those guys when other Big Ten schools are doing better.

What's more is that other Big Ten schools are beating us head-to-head for recruits. Illinois beat us for Hawkins. Iowa beat us for Ogundele. And other non-powers like Wake Forest (Massoud), TCU (Pearson), and VCU (Ward) have recruiting victories over Pikiell too.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Year 3 is Year 1 based on the roster. Kcg88 and other are looking for a Corey Sanders type player in each recruiting class. Sometimes that turns into Sanders or Harper or Mathis or Young or Mulcahy...all within the 150 range, some instantly impactful and others need more time.