The Official Make Fun of the Big East Thread
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It's cyclical guys.... sometimes Nova's elite, then they're just pretty good, then they're elite again. lol
Anything can happen in a one game situation. Are you really saying Marquette did not deserve to make it ? Yes they were horrible down the stretch but also beat Wisconsin and Louisville earlier in year and were ranked for a good part of the year.
No matter what SHU should be very good next year. They lose Nezi but they add the big shot blocker from Florida State who we saw last year at the RAC. He and Gill should get a lot of blocks. I am looking forward to our game with them next season at the RAC. It should be one outstanding game. The RAC will be rocking.
Some things are not cyclical. When Army and Harvard stopped winning football championships, when does the “cycle” return and they start winning again? How about SMU or Rice? When will they sell out the cotton bowl again and whoop Texas? And will UConn men’s team go on and win multiple national championships again now? I’m sorry, but some things in sports are not “cyclical” if things change .. and the “Big East” as it is now with the 10 teams in it will never be the power conference it once was, its on the doorstep of being a mid-major. History is great but means little the more time goes on, the Big East may get 2 teams in but not much more in years to come.
What worries me is if the Big East sucks and RU went 0-2 against them what does that say?
So.... the argument is that the BE is somehow a good conference because two of its teams beat a team that went 14-17? o.O
fwiw, Nova and Marquette also lost to those same two teams.
Looking at the average kenpom of the BE teams since reorganization (and # of Top 25 finishes):
7.7 - Villanova (5)
32.8 - Xavier (3)
41.3 - Creighton (1)
43.7 - Butler (3)
53.0 - Providence
56.5 - Seton Hall
62.3 - Marquette
67.0 - Georgetown (1)
95.5 - St. John's
149.8 - Depaul
Average kenpom by year (and average without Nova)
2013-14: 68.3 (74.7)
2014-15: 55.0 (60.6)
2015-16: 71.1 (78.9)
2016-17: 58.0 (64.2)
2017-18: 47.5 (52.7)
2018-19: 65.9 (70.3)
Overall: 61.0 (66.9)
So, it's not that the BE is having a particularly bad year.... this is just slightly worse than their average (and last year was well ahead of their average). It's only notable because Nova dropped out of the Top 20 and that it's coming off their best season since reorganization.
7.7 - Villanova (5)
32.8 - Xavier (3)
41.3 - Creighton (1)
43.7 - Butler (3)
53.0 - Providence
56.5 - Seton Hall
62.3 - Marquette
67.0 - Georgetown (1)
95.5 - St. John's
149.8 - Depaul
Average kenpom by year (and average without Nova)
2013-14: 68.3 (74.7)
2014-15: 55.0 (60.6)
2015-16: 71.1 (78.9)
2016-17: 58.0 (64.2)
2017-18: 47.5 (52.7)
2018-19: 65.9 (70.3)
Overall: 61.0 (66.9)
So, it's not that the BE is having a particularly bad year.... this is just slightly worse than their average (and last year was well ahead of their average). It's only notable because Nova dropped out of the Top 20 and that it's coming off their best season since reorganization.
Last year Villanova was the best team in the country. The rest of the c
their whole conference at this point is Villanova plus some mediocre programs. Villanova is excellent. The rest is decidedly not.
Another thing that is not cyclical--B1G schools will have lots more revenue than BE schools.
Not just a little more--LOTS more.
I think Villanova basketball will become more and more like BYU was in football and UNLV in basketball years ago. They will absolutely dominate in their conference year after year,but hardly anyone in America will be able to name the other schools in the conference.
Who did?
0-1 Nova
1-1 Marquette
2-1 SHU
1-1 Xavier
0-2 Creighton
1-0 Georgetown
1-0 SJU
0-1 Providence
0-2 Butler
1-1 Depaul
Overall: 7-10
vs. the 10 B1G teams with >.500 records: 2-9
vs. the 4 B1G teams with <.500 records: 5-1
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Is it safe to come out now....??? OMG....
Let me be the first to reconfirm that change is gradual....and nothing is definite
The media has incorrectly written off the Pac 12 multiple times in recent years, only to see Oregon make the Final Four in 2017. Oregon is built with layers of guards, size and shot blockers. Washington is solid and Arizona and ASU, Utah, UCLA and USC are a player away with some adjustments.
But the Big East has taken a haymaker that cannot be ignored.
The Big East has players that are young and schools like Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, Villanova, Creighton and Marquette have solid coaching staffs. Georgetown and St John's have 1st time coaches learning on the job....Depaul is increasing it's recruiting and Butler has been recruiting better since joining the league and has starters that can play on most teams anywhere.
But the Big East has turned into a jump shooting league without power, without a lot of size, very few shot blocking and a pick and pop offense....and when you try and recruit all shooters, your defense suffers across the board.
This is something that anyone attempting to defend this decline, has to come up with a solution beyond talk about Nova winning titles in 2016 and 2018........the league has officially been exposed.....still a solid league, just far far away from offering a complete roster of teams 1 through 10....
Let me be the first to reconfirm that change is gradual....and nothing is definite
The media has incorrectly written off the Pac 12 multiple times in recent years, only to see Oregon make the Final Four in 2017. Oregon is built with layers of guards, size and shot blockers. Washington is solid and Arizona and ASU, Utah, UCLA and USC are a player away with some adjustments.
But the Big East has taken a haymaker that cannot be ignored.
The Big East has players that are young and schools like Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, Villanova, Creighton and Marquette have solid coaching staffs. Georgetown and St John's have 1st time coaches learning on the job....Depaul is increasing it's recruiting and Butler has been recruiting better since joining the league and has starters that can play on most teams anywhere.
But the Big East has turned into a jump shooting league without power, without a lot of size, very few shot blocking and a pick and pop offense....and when you try and recruit all shooters, your defense suffers across the board.
This is something that anyone attempting to defend this decline, has to come up with a solution beyond talk about Nova winning titles in 2016 and 2018........the league has officially been exposed.....still a solid league, just far far away from offering a complete roster of teams 1 through 10....
Speculation about wojo leaving Marquette. Apparently he interviewed for unlv job though seems like a step down or is he being preemptive in event he’s on hot seat next year?
I didn't see that Wojo was on the Vegas radar....Marquette can find a better coach than Wojo, that might be a blessing in disguise for Marquette.
Huh? Army and Harvard have both been strong in recent years. The Big East, whom I do not like, is dedicated to being good in basketball, and they will be strong again.
In football? Army and Harvard were premier programs and national champions 100 years ago, along with Yale and Princeton.... that cycle didn't come back.
There are items that have changed since realignment of the conferences that is gradually changing the Big East. The financial aspect has not gone down for their league, but other conferences have now caught up financially like the AAC and other leagues.
You cannot expect to sustain that level of "dedication to Basketball",......it's a mirage in marketing and the Big East tournament being held together by the crown jewel of MSG.
If you don't have the higher revenue streams to overcome bad coaching hires, you cannot "outbid" for an upgrade in head coaches and assistant coaches. You can still be successful but it requires the Big East to have a smaller margin for error.
Who is the Big East's 2nd best coach behind Jay Wright and Villanova?? 5 years ago, they had the following.
Jay Wright -Nova
Buzz Williams (Marquette- left for VA Tech)...replaced by Steve Wojo, who may be looking to leave for UNLV.
Chris Mack (Xavier, - left for Louisville)...hired long time assistant coach Travis Steele.....Xavier does have a 3 decade history of success, so I would think Xavier will be fine.
Chris Holtmann (Butler -left for Ohio State)
John Thompson III ( somehow fired by Georgetown- may land at Vanderbilt within the next week or two- hired Patrick Ewing, who may or may not be better than JTIII
St John's- Steve Lavin (replaced by 1st time HC, Chris Mullin, who in 4 years has recruited a significant amount of talent, but seemingly has not done anything with it.
If you back pre-alignment, you had Jim Calhoun (.UConn) Mike Brey (Notre Dame), Rick Pitino (Louisville), Bob Huggins (West Virginia), Jaime Dixon (Pittsburgh and Jim Boeheim (Syracuse).
I could argue that the old Big East had the greatest assemblage of College Basketball coaching for one league that wlll never be matched ever.
This is not 2009 or 2011....it's 2019 and it's an enormous change and significantly different climate of competition right now.
This is not hyperbole, it's facts....hard facts and reality. I am proud to have watched RU go from the A10, to the Big East in both sports to the best conference in the country most years in the B1G. And with that comes revenue and growth that RU has never had to build around.
The Big East will be relevant. But it has to be judged on a new reality. Finishing .500 in the Big East isn't enough going forward and having that qualify for an NCAA at large bid..... Whomever wins the Big East has to be looked at beyond the won-loss record going forward...
Someone's going to win that conference and others will finish 2nd through 5th for the next 5 to 10 years, but I don't see a path that has them in the discussion in the Top 4 or 5 leagues in college basketball going forward from top to bottom.......and I can't see anything but a decline over the last 5 years....people ignored it or didn't want to see it. You can't lose that amount of coaching talent in recent years and assume everything remains the same.....and not have it impact the product and overall conference strength.
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This has to be the worst tournament for the conference in its history.
Wed:
SJU 65 - ASU 74
Thu:
SHU 68 - Wofford 84
Marquette 64 - Murray St 83
Nova 61 - St. Mary's 57
Sat:
Nova 61 - Purdue 87
The average score of the BE's five games was 77-64. In the four losses, it was 82-65
Wed:
SJU 65 - ASU 74
Thu:
SHU 68 - Wofford 84
Marquette 64 - Murray St 83
Nova 61 - St. Mary's 57
Sat:
Nova 61 - Purdue 87
The average score of the BE's five games was 77-64. In the four losses, it was 82-65
While I certainly enjoy the Big East being taken down, I disagree with the argument that there is some sort of structural impediment to their ever being good again. Basically, all you've said here is that they are down now, but we know that. The question is whether they can become good again. As long as they are willing to compete financially, they will be competitive. Same as Gonzaga, Butler, Duke, Syracuse, etc. All privates, all excellent in basketball. There are schools in the Big East that have excellent basketball traditions, attractive schools in good cities to be in, and a rich area for recruiting. I think reports of its death are premature.
No one has said the Big East is dying....it's declined from the best conference 5 to 7 years ago, to officially 5th at best right now. I am stating that they have solid programs and will have good teams ranked.
That being said, the level of respect by some in local media and traditionalists have to adjust to what's happening and it's possible this is a "dip". I don't think it is.
Does that mean they'll never win a head to head matchup again against the SEC, ACC, Big 12 or B1G?? They will.
At the same time, they cannot, until further notice, continue to live off the reputation of being seeded higher than they should be just because a 4th or 5th place Big East team, beats the 1st or 2nd place Big East team, and have that count of some signature win that gives them an automatic NCAA bid.
When the B1G "only" had 4 teams make the dance last year, it was a different story about how there's no difference between the leagues.....even though the B1G had 3 Sweet 16 teams last year and Michigan made the Final.
This year, the games during the regular season vs the B1G and other leagues weren't as strong and having teams earn automatic bids by finishing 4th in that league, just needs to be looked at closer.
You can't take the Villanova national titles as the poster child for the remaining conference members being overseeded or making the NCAAS by default. That is my take away, not that the league is dead or dying.
Just want some consistency in reporting the facts....The Pac 12 has taken some shots, over the last 4 to 5 years, which is fair. But if the Pac 12 had what happened to the Big East in the last 3 days, it would be headlines everywhere. If the Pac 12 is still deemed to be "a joke or trash", when do we downgrade or re-evaluate the Big East.
What does this mean for fans perhaps believing that a 4th or 5th place Big East team, is somehow better than a 8th or 9th place B1G, SEC or ACC team for an NCAA bid??
This is not just a "Big Dance" discussion. It carries from top to bottom at NIT levels of basketball and the strength of the league. It warrants a closer look going forward, not the benefit of the doubt after the results this year.
Bottom line - all about last team standing and unfortunately this year it won’t be Big 10, Big East, SEC, etc. but ACC with a strong possibility of an all ACC Final.
it's really a silly argument--these basketball only leagues in the long run can not compete with the all sport power five in athletics, financially or in status, and by the way they support a limited number of other teams and therefore have an unfair advantage--if the big east as a conference is such a sure thing--Notre Dame would be using them like they do the ACC--we all know non big 5 football leagues are in trouble -is the Big East so different other than they are a CYO conference??
