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This shooting thing ...

PhilaPhans

PhilaPhans

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Apr 23, 2005
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Why is it that we have a dozen or so guys getting full college scholarships to play a game and a good 75+% of them can't shoot? That's an important skill, right? (I mean, they have some skill, just not the one that allows us to score points.)

BROKEN RECORD BROKEN RECORD BROKEN RECORD. Ugh. Not like we haven't discussed this. It's not like I wasn't aware of this going into the year. Just how can something like that happen to a team? How is it that Rutgers struggles to recruit shooters?

I'm sorry for the new thread, but a quick glance down the topic list didn't have a title that said "shooting" even if every thread covered it.

Rant over.
 
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We don't have enough guys who can shoot well at any distance from the basket. Several of Miami's players could at least hit short to medium shots consistently and at least 3 or 4 of their players seemed like good 3 point shooters. I was wondering if running more screens to get Williams and especially Thiam open would help. It doesn't seem like Thiam is getting open on his own. If we just had average shooting capacity we would have won that game pretty easily.
 
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The one player who I thought would be a better shooter was Nigel Johnson. Excellent player in all other facets of the game - except he can't shoot. Now we see why his numbers at Kansas State weren't great.
 
I don't disagree with the OP, however the only two guys we have on the team that get regular playing time and are advertised as shooters are Williams and Thiam. For his first two seasons Williams did not shoot well, however this season we've seen solid improvement. With Thiam, it's clear that he can also shoot but is young and needs to change his stroke to get shots off more quickly. I'd be more frustrated if Pike can't bring in some shooters through recruiting rather than being upset about this year's shooting itself.
 
For the record, my three guys out of 12 that I considered to have decent shooting touch were Williams, Thiam, and Gettys. I'm sure others could fill up the basket, but we have many more slashers than shooters (which is a good skill too, mind you, until teams realize we can't shoot and clog the lanes).
 
I was at the game last night and got a good perspective. Thiam was open a lot on the wing. Many times they could have kicked it out to him for an open 3, but they did not. I believe they should do more of this....it'll also serve to open up the inside a little more.
 
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The person I am really struggling with figuring out is Corey. I know he isn't a great shooter but he's shooting like 30% worse than last year. That seems impossible.
 
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Johnson is disappointing because he can shoot off the dribble from 3 point territory while Williams and Thiam are more stationary shooters.
 
Great shooters are highly sought and the sad reality is most seasons Rutgers rarely had 2 consistent shooters on the court at the same time.
 
jtung230 said:
It's easy to find shooters at this level. But it's difficult to find shooters that can play D and rebound at this level.
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This. Shooters that can hit an open shot are a dime a dozen. But they don't have the athleticism, length, height, speed, ball skills, etc. to be useful in any other facet of the game. The ones that have all those attributes and can shoot are 4 and 5 star recruits for the most part.

Exceptions to this rule are on mid major teams that have to be incredibly crafty in scheme in order to get open looks for shooter that is lights out but doesn't have the athleticism or skills to create their own looks. They often tend to be teams that are full of veterans as part of the well oiled machine.

Another thing to consider is that the staff has only been given a relatively short amount of time to change numerous team deficiencies. They had to change their nutrition and conditioning, the ability to play defense, the ability to rebound, and the ability to execute a basic offensive game plan. Once all of these things become mainstays of the program we will likely begin to see improvement in the finer aspects of the game come along as well. Certainly shooting is fundamental but you first need to be able to do many other thingsand establish an attitude and a culture.
 
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jtung230 said:
It's easy to find shooters at this level. But it's difficult to find shooters that can play D and rebound at this level.
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Think I would definitely go for a shooter and worry about working some of the guys around him as needed. Problem is he will almost never be open on his own. Can't win against good teams without scoring some points.
 
It's not just your team. It's been a trend in college basketball for a while now...
 
It's tough to get shooters in our situation. The shooters who are also athletic- will end up at Duke n etc. It's like tryna recruit a big disruptive defensive tackle. Regular spot up shooters- usually can't help you untill their Jr & Sr years. They are a liability on the court bc of lack of athleticism. Those mid major shooters who burn us are crafty upperclassmen - who make up for their short comings by court intelligence. Are our recruiting strategy should be to recruit athletes so we can keep up - but also sign a mid major shooter - who we can stash for down the line
 
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Yeah but look at that kid from Hartford. I'm not saying he's the answer, but at any moment he could fill it up. Almost every team we play has at least one guy like that. Why don't we?
 
seels2662 said:
The person I am really struggling with figuring out is Corey. I know he isn't a great shooter but he's shooting like 30% worse than last year. That seems impossible.
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Unless a big turn around, Sanders will definitely be here or at another school for at least another season.

Right now his offensive game is limited to wild drives, and good enough athleticism to take people off the dribble.

However, his passing and defending have much improved.
 
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knight82 said:
The one player who I thought would be a better shooter was Nigel Johnson. Excellent player in all other facets of the game - except he can't shoot. Now we see why his numbers at Kansas State weren't great.
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He has a workable jumper off the pick and roll, in space.

His three point shot is not there yet. His best work is driving, and being in transition.
 
Corey's shot selection has been poor, at best.

If we can get good looks but can't convert, I'll be satisfied this year. Hopefully the shooting percentage goes up next year. I just don't want to see too many corey type shots
 
Poor shooting is a function of bad player development. It's something that players can get better at, but never do at RU. Almost very great shooter at RU over the last 30 years was a great shooter when they got here. Hardly anyone has become a great shooter at RU. We'll see if this changes under this coach.
 
LotusAggressor said:
Poor shooting is a function of bad player development. It's something that players can get better at, but never do at RU. Almost very great shooter at RU over the last 30 years was a great shooter when they got here. Hardly anyone has become a great shooter at RU. We'll see if this changes under this coach.
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My thoughts about shooting: Unless the player has only been playing BB for a short time period, but has a huge upside, it's difficult to increase accuracy for a perimeter shooter. Maybe a 30% guy can improve to 35%, but probably won't become a 45% shooter which is what you want.
Conversely, the really good shooter will usually be that way most of his career. However, we seem to have the nac for recruiting a kid who is good and somehow loses it in college. We don't capitalize on his ability, but try to alter what he does best. Also, we usually get the guy that has trouble creating his shot or finding open space.
For a normal BB kid who has been playing organized ball for 10+ years and isn't considered an above average shooter in HS, what suggests that he will improve significantly? It just doesn't work out that way.
You're either good or not so good at making shots. The CS knows it because they see you everyday in practice and know the capabilities. They have to put you in the best situation to contribute.
Post players are a completely different animal.
 
winfield102 said:
Corey's shot selection has been poor, at best.

If we can get good looks but can't convert, I'll be satisfied this year. Hopefully the shooting percentage goes up next year. I just don't want to see too many corey type shots
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I agree. It has been poor. Good thing is- we have another year to get out of Sanders, and he has another year at least to improve his play under some solid coaching. I agree though. The wild drives and gymnastic type finishes leave you wondering about his shot selection. Right now, that is his offensive scoring set. Jumper, and three point shot have to improve and be found for him to play at the next level.
 
RUsince52 said:
My thoughts about shooting: Unless the player has only been playing BB for a short time period, but has a huge upside, it's difficult to increase accuracy for a perimeter shooter. Maybe a 30% guy can improve to 35%, but probably won't become a 45% shooter which is what you want.
Conversely, the really good shooter will usually be that way most of his career. However, we seem to have the nac for recruiting a kid who is good and somehow loses it in college. We don't capitalize on his ability, but try to alter what he does best. Also, we usually get the guy that has trouble creating his shot or finding open space.
For a normal BB kid who has been playing organized ball for 10+ years and isn't considered an above average shooter in HS, what suggests that he will improve significantly? It just doesn't work out that way.
You're either good or not so good at making shots. The CS knows it because they see you everyday in practice and know the capabilities. They have to put you in the best situation to contribute.
Post players are a completely different animal.
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We have a NAC for finding kids that resemble what our record has always been- less than mediocre. The times are changing.

I have already seen improvement under Williams with his shot selection. Sanders has to be reeled in a little bit. Thiam is taking shots he should be.

If you have the space, that is a good shot. Work to have space.
 
higgins3 said:
We have a NAC for finding kids that resemble what our record has always been- less than mediocre. The times are changing.

I have already seen improvement under Williams with his shot selection. Sanders has to be reeled in a little bit. Thiam is taking shots he should be.

If you have the space, that is a good shot. Work to have space.
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Maybe because we don't get the 4-5 star guy, it's more apparent in the offense. In the past we seem to take a kid who isn't a great shooter, but can do other things when we need a shooter. I think this staff will change it, maybe out of necessity and that's OK.
A few years ago there was a kid from my town (West Milford) that shot the 3 really well. Went to Ru, didn't really play much and transferred out. I think his name was Soder or something like that, but never got the chance to prove he could do it. Now there could have been some underlying reasons, don't know.
It will be interesting to watch player development for these type players on the roster.
 
RUsince52 said:
Maybe because we don't get the 4-5 star guy, it's more apparent in the offense. In the past we seem to take a kid who isn't a great shooter, but can do other things when we need a shooter. I think this staff will change it, maybe out of necessity and that's OK.
A few years ago there was a kid from my town (West Milford) that shot the 3 really well. Went to Ru, didn't really play much and transferred out. I think his name was Soder or something like that, but never got the chance to prove he could do it. Now there could have been some underlying reasons, don't know.
It will be interesting to watch player development for these type players on the roster.
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We will not get the 4-5 star guy until we have a 15 win season. Or with this coaching, they have a culture, they have a build in mind. They might come. We will have that this year, or definitely within the next three years.

Always a reason why they do not see the floor. It depends on the level of competition at their HS, etc. Athleticism is huge obviously. You have to be able to run and jump really high. We had that player a couple years back who scored a ton of 3 point shots, shot really well in HS. He never was able to come close to keeping up with a D1 guard. Lots of factors. The person you knew could shot well, but if he cant beat his opponent to a spot, there is no chance he would ever play D1 basketball.
 
Seton Hall's freshman Myles Powell shot 7-for-10 from threeland against Columbia. In the game ... not at practice or during warmup.
 
Mr_Twister said:
Seton Hall's freshman Myles Powell shot 7-for-10 from threeland against Columbia. In the game ... not at practice or during warmup.
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Absolutely. If I practice shooting for a week street, I can hit 7/10 from the three point line. Most of us could. Really fundamental shooting. Having the right screen, cutting off of it quickly, having a quick release, that is something totally different. Set shooting to off the bounce is different type of shooting.

This stuff is not rocket science. There are guys who hit 6/10 three point shots during warmups that will not play more than five minutes throughout the whole season.
 
Mr_Twister said:
Seton Hall's freshman Myles Powell shot 7-for-10 from threeland against Columbia. In the game ... not at practice or during warmup.
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Who knows what happens with Powell. NJ kid- I hope he achieves what he wants, or what he earns.

He could be gone after this year. Definitely after next. He is for sure a great shooter. Eli Cain, a friend of Powells, also doing very well.

I hope both take off and become stars.
 
RUsince52 said:
My thoughts about shooting: Unless the player has only been playing BB for a short time period, but has a huge upside, it's difficult to increase accuracy for a perimeter shooter. Maybe a 30% guy can improve to 35%, but probably won't become a 45% shooter which is what you want.
Conversely, the really good shooter will usually be that way most of his career. However, we seem to have the nac for recruiting a kid who is good and somehow loses it in college. We don't capitalize on his ability, but try to alter what he does best. Also, we usually get the guy that has trouble creating his shot or finding open space.
For a normal BB kid who has been playing organized ball for 10+ years and isn't considered an above average shooter in HS, what suggests that he will improve significantly? It just doesn't work out that way.
You're either good or not so good at making shots. The CS knows it because they see you everyday in practice and know the capabilities. They have to put you in the best situation to contribute.
Post players are a completely different animal.
Click to expand...
Except that players do improve their shooting in successful programs and in the NBA. Kawahi Leonard was a bad shooter at San Diego State, and is now one of the better 3 point shooters in the NBA. The Spurs employ a shooting coach, as do many NBA teams. Michael Jordan was a much better shooter in the NBA than he was in college. LeBron James is a much better shooter now than he was when he first came into the NBA. Magic Johnson couldn't shoot in college. At all. He became a pretty good shooter in the NBA.

The only way you become a great, or even a good shooter is by shooting the ball. It's not magic.
 
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LotusAggressor said:
Except that players do improve their shooting in successful programs and in the NBA. Kawahi Leonard, was a bad shooter at San Diego State, and is now one of the better 3 point shooters in the NBA. The Spurs employ a shooting coach, as do many NBA teams. Michael Jordan was a much better shooter in the NBA than he was in college. LeBron James is a much better shooter now than he was when he first came into the NBA. Magic Johnson couldn't shoot in college. At all. He became a pretty good shooter in the NBA.

The only way you become a great, or even a good shooter is by shooting the ball. It's not magic.
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Yes. Maybe we need a few shooting coaches. I think this CS has a better idea for improving the shooting. Definitely a priority.
 
willisneverrana43 said:
This is about as wrong as a statement can get.
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Right, Willis. Every big time team puts a premium on shooters and snap them up if they are available. However, I think part of the problem here was Eddie Jordan's recruiting strategy as well. He put a premium on athletic guards who can get to the rim and then wanted one shooter...the wing. So, not only is it hard to land shooters but the previous staff wasn't looking for as many.
 
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